Boyd K Packer - September 10, 1924 to July 3, 2015

Boyd K Packer
Pitbull Priesthood Bouncer for the Lord

For a view of the life and artwork of Boyd Packer click on Boyd K Paradox - Artist, Apostle, Prophet, Enigma and for reaction to Packer's "For Young Men Only" sermon click on The M-Word

Read Boyd K Packer's Doctor of Education dissertation: Manual of Policies and Procedures for the Administration of Indian Seminaries of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints A Field Project to the Department of Educational Administration Brigham Young University.

What "moral" decline pained Packer so much?

07/10/2015 - by Tom Phillips

A quote from Allan Packer re his father:-

"SALT LAKE CITY (AP) | The son of Mormon leader Boyd K. Packer said it pained his father during his final years to observe declining morals around the world."


What are the morals he was concerned about? Sexual permissiveness? Masturbation? Same Sex Marriage?

SSM (Same Sex Marriage) is a basic human right denied to a large section of the population by religious bigots. Masturbation is normal and has proven scientific benefits. It does not lead to homosexuality as Kimball and Packer taught. Sexual permissiveness? Come off it. Consider the practices of JS and BY, serial adulterers with a liking for under age girls.Also, their practice of blood atonement or murder. Their true follower is Warren Jeffs.

Rather than a 'moral decline' I observe a more ethical society compared with the one advocated by Packer. As examples:-

*Slavery, a biblical sanctioned ownership principle, has been abolished.
*Women are no longer treated as property (one old apostle boasted he chose a wife the same way he chose a cow).
*Civil rights granted to all.
*Human rights have been granted more than in the past.
*In almost all civilised, developed countries capital punishment has been abolished (USA being one of the main exceptions).
*Sexual orientation accepted scientifically as genetic rather than a 'sin'.
*Hopefully a reduction in suicides such as Alan Turing for being gay.

Packer would likely have been against the above progress and, instead, been a supporter of Polygamy and Blood Atonement.

I, for one, am pleased for the 'moral decline' in the world that caused Packer pain. I see it as social progress.

My advice for Packer and his ilk - stay out of peoples bedrooms and concentrate on improving lives through human rights and genuine compassion for the well being of others.

Graveside Service Poems for Boyd Packer

07/10/2015 at the Brigham City Cemetary

There once was a man from Utah by Free2Live

There once was a man from Utah. His self expectation was greater than any you saw.
Idignation for doctrine infiltration, boasted allegiance to anything useful.
Truth was a matter of titration as members grew and grew in the drip line church station.
Testimony was good if doubt was a pulled weed and germination meant best of money.
Love got the shove and sex meant a cast iron chastity glove.
Fathers would crow when they brought their son to show a prophet in person to speak at a conference mount.
Grimaced a smile to his audience neighbor pal and lied to himself that yes it was truly a meeting from deity.
The man growled you are in sin but trust me it will get better.
Fear and guilt always were dealt as the reply was a tear in deep silt.
His glow was brilliant like moses of today. Bright and bold but confused when asked if bully is a color?
The race was on to the dictionary of Bruce passed on. Yes, color also has a hue of gender.
How can it be that this man of destiny could speak and speak and speak and speak and speak and speak and speak and speak and speak and speak and speak and speak and not break his arm patting himself on the back?
Turns out that this Packer held contempt for any jacker.
His talk became a cult fear attacker.
Never once did he nor another of the rest mention that women do not polish their nest.
What of eggs that factory make? Why only males smacked out entrails and ladies no mention?
His legacy finally detailed an end when same sex marriage had arrived.
Minions displayed a sigh of relief as this soul they realized had given his last brief.
Today the sun is bright as birds sing louder on into the night.
The world is calmer in gratitude for a place less false.
The End.

Stand By My Grave And Pee by cricket

Do not stand on my grave and pee
I am not there; Off to Kolob with glee.
I am doctrinal winds that blow,
I am with my crony Lorenzo Snow,
I am the mold on ripened grain,
I am young men's righteous pain.
When your morning's stool you flush
I am the swift spiraling rush
Of quiet birds in circled flight.
I am the vulture causing all the fright.
Do not stand on my grave and celebrate,
Because the Supreme Court delivered my fate.

Packer from Nantucket by Templar

There once was a Packer from Nantucket,
Whose head would swell bigger than a bucket,
When he browbeat the saints,
With his long list of ain'ts,
Dozens would just leave and say oh f**k it!

Young men in the audience - by Cold-Dodger

Young men in the audience today,
I come before you with something to say:
Do not be enticed by the imp called 'the gay.'
'Tis false doctrine! You're not born that way!
Abomination it is to with another man lay,
How do you supposed with this the Lord would be ok?
But there is hope a shinin' through the the clouds today.
Obey the small things. Do not, with yourself, play,
Do not with someone you're attracted to stay.
If someone entices you, say neigh!
Remember always the Brethren to obey.

Brothers and Sisters,
I'm sorry I lied,
And couldn't tell the truth
Until I died.
The truth was, I did
The penetration want
So desperately, but now
In death it will me haunt.

My only hope, is that if worms
Count as pahallics,
Then I truly hope my worm dies not!
And I mean that in

All the youth - by blueorchid

To all the youth
So brave and good
If it's other boys
That give you wood

My name is Boyd
And I'm here to say
Be very ashamed
If you are gay

Just deny your heart
And when you are wed
Try not to think
What's in your bed

With your eyes closed
Just be a man,
And say to yourself,
"I think I can."

And when you find
The love you should
With sorrow say,
"I thought I could."

A miserable cracker - by Chump

There once was a miserable cracker,
Closest friends called him "fudge", or "the packer",
Boyd, you glum prick,
Keep you hands off your dick,
Hell has no room for one more chronic whacker.

I shall never see by Twinker

I think that I shall never see
A man as hateful as BKP
A man for whom sex is an obsession,
One who gets off on a young boy's confession.
A man who performs like a grizzly bear
A challenge not even Oaks can dare.
His very name prompts spite and scorn.
A meaner man was never born.
Only God can judge this man;
But we all know he was a rotten, useless, hateful, despicable, no good, contemptible, wretched and worthless, unredeemable splotch of pond scum.

Kicked the bucket by exmorphmon

Boyd K. Packer kicked the bucket; I shall not lament.
He madeth me obstain from my little factory: he pushedeth
Me into cold showers.
He suckedeth my soul dry: he leadeth me in the pitfall paths of
Mormondumb for his nameÕs sake.
Yea, though I walk through Happy Valley in the shadow of
half dead so-called prophets mutterings, I will fear no doctrine: for logic is with me;
And facts and empiric knowledge guide me.
Though faithful bleeting sheep prepare a table of green jello and funeral potatoes
Afterwards in the cultural hall: I will not let their Utah-accented endless
Talk of church life mess up my head;
My heart runneth over with joy of knowing no more vitriol will be forthcoming from Boyd:
Surely some other good and merciful gods: Thor perhaps, saw fit to remove him before
He made it to the number one slot and messed things up totally: no matter I will dwell no more
In the ward of the three hour block, nor contribute blindly to its real estate empire: Boyed, adieu!

PS- Thor, please do something about the dodo before, you know, he thinks he can fly.

Had a chance - by presleynfactsrock

Boyd had a chance'
Before he croaked
To utter the truth
Before he choked

He chose instead
The other way
Berating youth
'Til his dying day

It is easier
To point to the other guy
Than look at your self
With an honest eye

Boyd, the harm you did
Was evil and mean
Many will remember
Many will scream

"Good riddance!"
Glad you left today
The world is blessed
Now you've gone away.

Old coot named Packer by vman455

There once was an old coot named Packer
Who did not appear to be a slacker.
But those who could keep it
Were in on the secret--
"Years ago, we dipped him in lacquer."

* * *

A flinty guy called Boyd once was hired
To be part of the Quorum of the Tired.
"To wend my way higher,
I need a cause that's dire--
I know! I'll make those gays get rewired!"

* * *

There once was an apostle of some zeal,
Whose ardor was almost unreal.
"Those gays are so hellish,
Nothing but selfish!"
He cried with an asinine squeal.

* * *

An old man named Packer got so heated,
He stood up at the podium and bleated:
"Brothers and sisters, I'm not lyin'--
Only the hymns of Zion
Are appropriate while you are all seated!"

A story 'bout a man named Boyd - by donbagley

Come listen to a story 'bout a man named Boyd
A rich preacher con who kept his kin employed
And then one day he was countin' up the tithes
Along come the devil took him to the other side

Hell, that is, black hole, Utah greed

We say goodbye - by Bob...not registered

We say goodbye with a rhyme
Boyd's whole life was a crime

That is all

Good riddance Boyd - by madalice

Good riddance Boyd.
we all know you thought you were Freud.

It just wasn't so.
You were just as F'd up as Joe.

Very few there are who will mourn.
The boys can now look at their porn.

They can now free their hands from the tether.
Who knows? Maybe they'll get into leather.

You're no longer around to make them feel wicked
That's a situation that exmos predicted.

Your teeth you may gnash,
who cares? Out you go with the trash.

Twiddling of his thumbs - by Anonymuse

By the twiddling of his thumbs,
something Packard this way comes.
But clang the bells both loud and deep,
For Boyd is dead, he doth not sleep.

Verily, he will not be risen,
Rest assured, I aint be shizzen.
Mr. Boyd is in that state,
Where prideful Packard meets his fate.

Little man of little thought
Shall receive the blessings he has sought:
Evermore in a coffin's grasp,
When something Packard came to pass.

How many boys - by Ex-Sister Sinful Shoulders

How many boys did he inadvertently kill?
Those who survived live with guilt still
Phobic of gays, he reviled them all
Repent all you sinners, or no mission call!

Ashes to ashes, dust to dust
Onward to Kolob, get there he must
Those left behind now body bag ya
Check his pockets, a stash of viagra?

Boyd loved the birds and lucky for him
Men flipping birds as they lower him in!
Vultures are circling, Boyd is now spent
Decades of victims can now finally vent

An old man named Packer - by midwestanon

There was once an old man named Packer
Who grew up on a farm, made love to cows, and drove an old tractor
'Twas one day when this Fossil
Became an Apostle
Ensuring the practice of only ordaining white crackers

As an Apostle he was anything but ineffectual
making enemies of ' gays, lesbians, feminists, and so-called intellectuals'
He left the church in a bind
While President Benson's swiss-cheese filled mind
Could not comprehend the existence of those damned homosexuals!

He was known to say 'some things that are true are not of much use'
Oh Packer, what a well-said, clever ruse!
Too bad you were the worlds biggest ass
with not an iota of class
I'm afraid you were wrong; Little factories can handle the abuse.


Off the record General Authority comments re Packer's death

07/10/2015 by little fly on the wall

Dallin Oaks: "Well, it's about time that ol' grizzly bear went into final hibernation."

Tommy Monson: "That puts Donna Packer on top of my widows to be visited and edified list."

Jeffrey Holland: "I always admired Boyd because he went to a fine school, read a few good books and was no dodo."

Dallin Oaks again: "Oh, I did admire Boyd because he never ever apologized for anything."

Dieter Uchtdorf: "What a relief, I always felt like it was World War II all over again whenever we flew together on the Hunstman private jet."

David Bednar: "He he he, Boyd's little factory is now pickled forever."

Russell M Nelson: "It was just a matter of time before that little factory was outsourced."

The Packer Pecker Blues

11/09/2014 by The Lil' Factory That Couldn't

My nookie days are over,
My pilot light is out.
What used to be my sex appeal,
Is now my water spout.
Time was when, on its own accord,
From my trousers it would spring.
But now I've got a full time job,
To find the flip'n thing.
It used to be embarrassing,
The way it would behave.
For every single morning,
It would stand and watch me shave.
Now as old age approaches,
It sure gives me the blues.
To see it hang its little head,
And watch me tie my shoes!
Explains why sex has been my craze
Cuz my lil' fact'ry shut down,
Repressed, I love to bash the gays,
With a General Conference frown!

The Crazy Quotes of Boyd K. Packer

09/20/2014 by jiminycricket

1. "In many places it is literally not safe physically for youngsters to go to school. And in many schools - and it's becoming almost generally true - it is spiritually unsafe to attend public schools. Look back over the history of education to the turn of the century and the beginning of the educational philosophies, pragmatism and humanism were the early ones, and they branched out into a number of other philosophies which have led us now into a circumstance where our schools are producing the problems that we face." (Charge to the David O. McKay School of Education at BYU, October 9, 1996)

2. "The world is spiraling downward at an ever-quickening pace. I am sorry to tell you that it will not get better. It is my purpose to charge each of you as teachers with the responsibility-to put you on alert. These are days of great spiritual danger for our youth. I know of nothing in the history of the Church or in the history of the world to compare with our present circumstances. Nothing happened in Sodom and Gomorrah which exceeds in wickedness and depravity that which surrounds us now. Words of profanity, vulgarity, and blasphemy are heard everywhere. Unspeakable wickedness and perversion were once hidden in dark places; now they are in the open, even accorded legal protection. At Sodom and Gomorrah these things were localized. Now they are spread across the world, and they are among us. I need not-I will not-identify each evil that threatens our youth. It is difficult for man to get away from it... Surely you can see what the adversary [the big bad Devil] is about. The first line of defense, the home, is crumbling... This shield of faith is handmade in a cottage industry. What is most worth doing ideally is done at home. It can be polished in the classroom, but it is fabricated and fitted in the home, handcrafted to each individual." (Address to CES Religious Educators on 6 February 2004)

3. "Each year, many fall victim in the colleges and universities. There, as captive audiences, their faith, their patriotism, and their morality are lined up against a wall and riddled by words shot down from the mouths of irreverent professors." (That All May be Edified, p. 165)

4. "The ultimate purpose of the adversary [the big bad Devil], who has "great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time," is to disrupt, disturb, and destroy the home and the family. Like a ship without a rudder, without a compass, we drift from the family values which have anchored us in the past. Now we are caught in a current so strong that unless we correct our course, civilization as we know it will surely be wrecked to pieces. Moral values are being neglected and prayer expelled from public schools on the pretext that moral teaching belongs to religion. At the same time, atheism, the secular religion, is admitted to class, and our youngsters are proselyted to a conduct without morality." (Ensign, May 1994 P. 19)

5. "I am restless over the possibility, ever present, that education may fail to achieve a righteous purpose and be perversely used. We have many examples in the world where the misuse of this power has degraded men rather than exalted them... The voice of atheism, of corruption, of faithlessness, of dissention resounds from a thousand platforms. It is subsidized from public funds. It is invited to the forum in public institutions, tolerated by most, and encouraged by many. The voice of faith, on the other hand, is fading. Few places are left where it might speak." (BYU Speeches of the Year, 29 April 1969, p.3)

6. "Our garden has gone untended and the weeds have almost choked out any concern for values from our system of public education. Beginning in the teachers' colleges in the universities, prospective teachers, bombarded with humanism, and secularism, and pragmatism, and atheism, have been graduated with a noticeable breach in their preparation. Concern for standards at colleges of education is reserved mostly for academic standards, and the students graduate to seek employment in schools that in some instances now have been described, and not without some truth, as jungles É Any system of schools in our society that protects the destruction of faith and in turn forbids the defense of it, must ultimately destroy the moral fiber of a people." (Let Not Your Heart be Troubled, p. 171-172)

7. "We are very particular to forbid anyone from preaching Catholicism, or Protestantism, or Mormonism, or Judaism in a public school classroom, but for some reason we are very patient with those who teach the negative expression of religion. In the separation of church and state we ought to demand more protection from the agnostic, from the atheist, from the communist, from the skeptic, from the humanist and the pragmatist than we have been given... Any system in the schools or in society that protects the destruction of faith and forbids in turn, the defense of it must ultimately destroy the moral fiber of the people." (That All May be Edified, p. 169)

8. "I would not contribute to publications, nor would I belong to organizations that by spirit or inclination are faith-destroying." (Let Not Your Heart be Troubled, p. 114)

9. "In a review of what a student has gained at school, or in a class, he should give attention to things he may have lost. If he knew the value of some things he may have discarded, he would dig frantically through the wastebasket and trash can to rescue them before they are hauled away permanently. He came to school basically to learn an occupation, and likely he has. But as always, there was a price to pay, and occasionally students pay an exorbitant price... Did they come with patriotism and replace it with cynicism? Did they come free from any binding habits and now leave with an addiction? Did they arrive aspiring for marriage, a home, and a family and now have abandoned those aspirations? And critically important, did they come with virtue and moral purity and now must admit to themselves that while they were here they have lost it?" (Teach Ye Diligently p. 184-185, 1979.)

10. "These are days of great spiritual danger for this people. The world is spiraling downward at an ever-quickening pace. I AM SORRY TO TELL YOU THAT IT WILL NOT GET BETTER. I know of nothing in the history of the Church or in the history of the world to compare with our present circumstances. Nothing happened in Sodom and Gomorrah which exceeds the wickedness and depravity which surrounds us now. Satan [the big bad Devil] uses every intrigue to disrupt the family. The sacred relationship between man and woman, husband and wife, through which mortal bodies are conceived and life is passed from one generation to the next generation, is being showered with filth. Profanity, vulgarity, blasphemy, and pornography are broadcast into the homes and minds of the innocent. Unspeakable wickedness, perversion, and abuseÑnot even exempting little childrenÑonce hidden in dark places, now seeks protection from courts and judges... The sins of Sodom and Gomorrah were localized. They are now spread across the world, wherever the Church is. The first line of defenseÑthe homeÑis crumbling. Surely you can see what the adversary [the big bad Devil] is about." (Brigham Young University J. Reuben Clark Law Society Devotional Saturday, 28 February 2004) (Emphasis added)

Emperor Palpatine vs. Boyd K Packer

09/11/2014 by tig and others

I have been struck by the uncanny resemblance between these two individuals:

Both are exceedingly old and withered

Both are white men

Both are physically ugly

Both have even uglier personalities

Both seek to control the lives of others

Both believe they know what is best for everyone else

Both like to show off their power

Both love the sound of their own voice

Both believe they have magical powers

Both seem to avoid women

Both like to wear robes

Both seek to crush and opposition or dissension to them

Both are concern when boys play with their light sabers

So I got to thinking, is it possible that they might really be one and the same person?

Then I thought a little more and realized that it couldn't possibly be. Emperor Palpatine probably has at least one redeeming feature, and Boyd has none.


Yes there are certainly some good similarities, but I must also point out key differences:

- One ruled with an iron fist

- One literally gave everyone the creeps

- One scared young children and gave them nightmares

- One's voice sent shudders down the spines of even ardent followers

Emperor Palpatine on the other hand...... - by sherlock

Boyd K Packer Creative Captions by his loyal Ex-Mormon fans

10/03/2013 - by BeenThereDunnThatExMo and others

Boyd K Packer captions created by BeenThereDunnThatExMo and others.

Here's my take on it:

Oaks: "Come on Boyd! You gave that factory talk years age. No one wants to hear it again!"

Oaks: "Now now Boyd, just wait your turn to talk like everyone else!" - BeenThereDunnThatExMo


Oaks: "Just go in your pants, like Tommy Boy." - wine country girl


Oaks: "No, you can't play with my little factory...unless a flaming angel with a sword said it's okay."

"Has that cane of yours been consecrated for the blessing and healing of the sick and afflicted? I've got a monster headache...mind giving me a little tappy-tap on the old noggin?"

"Guys, I think he's really dead this time!"

"It's called Gangnam Style...he crosses his hands like this and does a little pony dance." - Chump


Oaks: "You saw Jesus at the mall?"

Packer: "That's why we built it." - 64monkey


Oaks: "I am going to marry your wife." - popeyes


Oaks: "If you cross your hands like this, they're less likely to wander to your private places." - noondaysun


Oaks: "If you have enough faith Boyd, you can levitate yourself out of here." - Elder Berry


Oaks: "Pull my finger." - sherlock


Oaks: "Just so you remember, this is General Conference. Your talk is written for you. Just read it and don't stray from the script. Mess up your talk, and I'll replace your oxygen tank with helium for your next one." - scarecrowfromoz


Oaks: "If you have enough faith, you can lay your hands on your crotch and raise the dead." - Jojo


Oaks: "No Boyd, its not just you. None of our little factories work anymore except for Dieter, he had his refurbished, and it works better than ever." - closer2fine


Oaks: "Shazam!" - FredOi


Oaks: "It's not easy to stage manage a grizzly bear." - lulu

Oaks: "Damn you Boyd! Why did you say that? Dealing with you is like stage managing a grizzly bear." - closer2fine


Packer: "I feel pretty, Oh so pretty. I feel pretty and witty and bright, And I pity, Any girl who isn't me tonight."

Oaks: Now that you've finished writing your talk, I'll need my stone and a hat back." - Redneck Wonderland


Oaks: ""Would you please DIE already...?!" - sonoma


Oaks: "I have good news. The church has just acquired an adult diaper factory but it isn't very big." - Dave the Atheist


Oaks: "Now Boyd, we've been over this before. You can go watch Bonanza in a little but; first you need to read your script, or no Bonanza." - serena


Oaks: "Did you know that this weekend is the International Conference on Historical Integrity and that there's a group of about 3,000 world class historians sitting in a reserved section right in front of you? I think you better scrub your talk and not mention anything about historical accuracy or the Internet. They're ready to chant 'Idolize truth'." - jiminycricket


Oaks: "I'm sorry they forgot to put a bed post on your special chair Boyd. Just cross your hands like this, and pretend they're zip tied." - madalice


Oaks: "I just heard that you are gay. Do you want to go to the back room ahd show me something pretty! - rgrraymond


Oaks: "I just heard that you are gay so do you want me to seal your boyfriend to you? - - Redneck Wonderland


Oaks: "I know 2 hours is a long time. But hey at least the Chippendales are serving lunch." - jiminycricket


Oaks: "I just heard that you are gay so I'll keep it a secret if you'll make me your First Counselor." - jiminycricket


Oaks: "Your zipper is undone. My I help you fix it! - rgrraymond


Oaks: "Wanna take turns washing and anointing after this? - Redneck Wonderland


Oaks: "I'm also praying that Tommy will bite the dust first!

Oaks: "Don't worry. Nelson isn't the only one that knows CPR." - jiminycricket


Oaks: "Tell me again about when you walked across the plains from Nauvoo to Salt Lake City. I never get tired of that story."

"I can not overcome what I feel are inborn tendencies toward the impure and unnatural when I'm around you, Boyd."

"Some things that are true are not very useful, but, truth is, that fart you just released cleared the first 5 rows out of the conference center." - StoneInHat


Oaks: "We've got little time left before they figure it all out. Just don't tell the truth. I need this job. Just make them believe we've seen Jesus."

Oaks: "And then they bind my wrists like this and have their way with me. My celestial kingdom fantasies are the best. And I know they are not fantasies because the lord tells me so." - spicyspirit

Oaks: "Everyone loves you. Really, they do! Just ask for some orange Metamucil with your lunch. Tom Phillips is going to be on the front page of the New York Times. Glenn Beck just resigned from the Church and Steve Young is so pissed he just cut up his temple clothes on live TV.

"It's mushrooming. Donny and Marie are renouncing the Book of Mormon on '60 Minutes'. The new temple video is on YouTube - and it has over 1,000,000 hits. D. Michael Quinn found Sidney Rigdon's Book of Mormon drafts."

"The rest of the twelve are in a panic. Tithing revenues are down 50%. There's been a tidal wave. Only the Boston MA temple got swept out to sea. There's been a robbery. The First Presidency's vault was cleaned out and I'm sorry, the thieves took your journals too. Well don't be upset with me. The rest of the Q12 burned their journals just as you ordered." "Don't worry, there's extra security in the Conference Center today."

"Maybe if you cry just this once they'll believe you. Jesus just appeared in the Vatican. I haven't seen Jesus either! I'm sorry, but I can't vouch for you anymore. You're on your own." - jiminycricket


Oaks: "It's okay Boyd. Every male your age takes forever to pee. It's not a moral failing. It's just the way your little factory was designed to work. Now stop playing with it." - Mnemonic


Oaks: "You know, Pecker, people can tell you're fiddling with your little factory up here." - twojedis


Oaks: "I swear to you, Boyd, if you so much as mention the 'M' word I'll pull out your catheter right here on stage." - Twinker


Oaks: "You know Dallin, I never noticed it before, but if I drew a line over the top of your head, it would look just like a little factory; let's do it, that way we can both be dick-heads!" - wowbagger


Packer answers back: "Sounds like a Win/Win situation to me!" - blueorchid


Oaks: "Packer, you are looking a little cyanotic. Maybe Nelson can check the O2 tube velcro'ed to your chair leg to make sure it is still connected. Image is everything you know! Har-har!!" - Yinyang


Packer: "Havah nagila- havah nagila. No thanks, you see I just had a beer." - thedesertrat1


Packer: "Dallin, if you don't get me home in time to watch the series finale of Breaking Bad, I'll have your ass!" - misterzelph

Boyd Kinsey Packer Institute of Reproductive Science - Press Release

11/26/2010 - by BYU

The University of Notre Dame funded a study to see why the head of a man's Penis was larger than the shaft. After 1 year and $180,000, they concluded that the reason that the head was larger than the shaft was to give the man more pleasure during sex.

After Notre Dame published the study, Wellesley College decided to do their own study. After $250,000 and 3 years of research, they concluded that the reason the head was larger than the shaft was to give the woman more pleasure during sex.

True to form, Elder Boyd K Packer's obsession with male sexual activity inspired him to direct his pet department at Brigham Young University to conduct their own "hands on" study.

After 2 weeks and a cost of around $75.46, they concluded that it was to keep a man's hand from flying off and hitting himself in the forehead.

Several graduate students who worked closely with Packer on the study surmised that the concave shape of Packer's own forehead creates the permanent scowl always found on his face, especially during General Conference.

The Packer Trilogy - Three Famous Speeches

10/19/2010 - by Sheri Dude - President of Desperate Book Store

Boyd Packer trilogy.

We feel so special and blessed to have Elder Packer's permission to release his most famous speeches as one volume.

With the international attention to Elder Packer's address regarding homosexuality this past General Conference we are positioned to cash in big time on sales.

We continue to negotiate, plead, cajole and beg Brother Boyd to offer an autographed limited edition of the trilogy but as many who know Elder Packer, "You can't stage manage a grizzly bear."

At this point Elder Packer has agreed to donate one thousand of his trilogies to go along side copies of the Book of Mormon to be placed in hotel rooms drawers in San Francisco, California.

Now that Elder Packer is in the twilight of his tenure on this telestical orb we are honored to be able to publish this volume that will surely go down in history as a truth that may not be useful.

Boyd K Packer - Darth Packer.

Boyd Kitteh Packer.

Boyd K Packer Godprophet Thomas Monson.

Packer's Planet O' Perfection and Godly Creations

03/04/2010 - by OzPoof

Boyd Packer creating in his garden.


Fruit attracts humanoid who partakes. The next time the humanoid masturbates, he/she explodes, firing millions of seeds for a radius of 50 metres.


Beautiful tree that bears fruit containing no seeds during years of plenty -solid milk, white, or dark chocolate the size of a tennis ball covered in edible gold leaf. If more than one fruit is eaten, the gluttonous animal dies instantly, and fast growing roots penetrate the carcass and absorb nutrients. In times of drought and famine, the chocolate tree creates a new fruit - small and barely edible - with a sweet smell, but a mind altering chemical inside. The chemical makes the animal or human believe they are relieving a revelation, telling them that they must run to meet their creator who is calling them home. The animal runs until it dies from exhaustion. The seeds use the corpse as fertilizer.


A vine that needs constant care and attention to bear fruit, which tastes like caramel pudding, yet has negligible kilojoules so provides little energy. In nature this attention is given by grazing animals that prune and "fertilize" the area. The fruit contains small seeds which lodge in the intestines. Each spore contains a level, and if the spore detects that the animal has been lying down for more than 6 hours, a chemical is released that digests the animal alive. The same chemical dissolves protective covering on seeds which then grow.


This bat, which has poor hearing but razor sharp teeth, waits in the trees until it hears loud laughter. The bat then dives at the source of the sound which it knows will be food. The bats generally tear out the throat and voice box of loud laughers, rendering them mute. About 30% of these people survive. Such people are employed in the Church of Packer HQ in Misery City.


Small spiders that live in clothing lapels. These spiders inject a chemical that numbs the chest area in humanoids so they can continue their work. The spiders weave an opaque web very rapidly that covers the area between lapels and Adam's apple. While the web catches crumbs for the spiders, it also provides a shield from the hint of cleavage, or in men, their chest hair, which are manifestations of sexuality and therefore considered evil on Packer World.


By division, which is involuntary and very painful. All humanoids are in fact clones of their creator, Boyd K Packer.

Stuff BKP doesn't like, with commentary

04/16/2009 - by Tyson Dunn

Quoting from his talk during Priesthood session, "Counsel to Young Men":

Your gender was determined in the premortal existence. You were born a male. You must treasure and protect the masculine part of your nature.

BKP leads in with the usual canard. This is codespeak, less against transgenders, than against homosexuals whom the octogenarian crowd in the church still confusingly think wish to be women.

> You must have respectful, protective regard for all women and girls.

Respectful is reasonable. Protective is codespeak for that whole dominion thing.

> Do not abuse yourself.

Ah, the ever-popular injunction against masturbation. It seems incredible that in the 21st century, BKP can't simply say "don't masturbate". Of course, if he did, I suspect there might be a light guffaw from the congregation.

> Never allow others to touch your body in a way that would be unworthy, and do not touch anyone else in any unworthy way.

A few years back, BKP talked about the "unwritten" order of things. This is an example of what he meant. If you don't tell people what constitutes "unworthiness", then you can both (a) cram anything you feel like into the definition and (b) let members fill in the blanks themselves. Win-win for BKP.

However, that being said, if he really meant to say, "don't have any kind of sex", he'd probably have come closer to the point than this. It's reasonable to suspect that he meant homosexual activity while dancing around it.

> Avoid the deadly poisons of pornography and narcotics. If these are in your life, beware!

Ah, welcome to the package deal fallacy. Drug abuse is bad; pornography, less so.

> If allowed to continue, they can destroy you. Talk to your parents; talk to your bishop. They will know how to help you.

Getting help with drug abuse - good idea.

Confessing use of pornography all over the place - quick train to pariahhood.

> Do not decorate your body with tattoos or by piercing it to add jewels. Stay away from that.

Which leads one to wonder, if the youth choose to pierce themselves, but only use metal piercings without jewels, is that okay? In other words, all-metal labrets and industrial piercings, good; diamond studs, bad.

> Do not run with friends that worry your parents.

Frankly, this isn't all that bad of advice, but it would be better if he recommended that teens talk rationally to their parents about their friends and the concerns that their parents might have.

> Everywhere present is the influence of Lucifer and his legion of angels.

Spooky, spooky. Fairly silly too.

> They tempt you to do those things and say those things and think those things that would destroy. Resist every impulse that will trouble your spirit.

Would it not be better to tell kids that they are going through a lot of physical changes right now that get their hormones and thereby their emotions out of whack? And that, in fact, it is pretty normal, but that they should give themselves permissions to take breathers, to recognize the source of their emotional swings, and to back away from the precipice.

> You are not to be fearful. The Prophet Joseph Smith taught that “all beings who have bodies have power over those who have not.” And Lehi taught that all “men are instructed sufficiently that they know good from evil.” Remember, the prayerful power of your spirit will protect you.

Though knowledge about what's going on would serve them a hell of a lot more.

Birds of Masada.

Boyd the Bird Man of Masada

12/15/2008 - by Ron

In 1989 I watched Boyd K Packer while he was sitting on top of Masada in Israel. I watched as he would break off a piece of a granola bar and hold it on his finger. I watched as birds came and ate the pieces of granola bar off his finger.

I have thrown food to ducks etc. and have had them come near, but I have never had a wild bird come and eat food out of my hand like the birds did to Boyd K Packer on the top of Masada.

BKKKP an Ogre? Read about his kindness to a little "Lamanite Ragamuffin"

02/17/2008 - by coppertop from Recovery from Mormonism

The following from:

The Church often sees President Packer as a strict diciplinarian, without wit or sympathy. President Spencer W. Kimball wrote of an incident that gives the lie to that perception. President Kimball told of a sacrament meeting that Elder Packer, then an Assistant to the Twelve, had attended in Cuzco, Peru, in 1964. President Kimball described the scene of a little boy who was dirty and dressed in tattered clothes - apparently an orphan who lived on the streets - who came to the open doorway of the chapel during the sacrament service.

"Almost unobserved, he shyly came to the sacrament table and, with a seeming spiritual hunger, leaned against the table and lovingly rubbed his unwashed face against the cool, smooth white linen," President Kimball wrote.

The child was sent back into the street by a woman sitting on the front row. "A bit later the little urchin, seemingly compelled by some inner urge, overcame his timidity and came stealthily, cautiously down the aisle again, fearful, ready to escape if necessary," President Kimball wrote. "From his seat on the stand, Elder Packer caught his eye, beckoned to him, and stretched out big welcoming arms. After a moment's hesitation, the little Lamanite ragamuffin was nestled comfortably on his lap, in his arms, the tousled head against the great warm heart - a heart sympathetic to waifs, and especially to little Lamanite ones."

This incident took place in 1964... the last time any act of kindness was demonstrated by BKKKP.

Packer conducts "rehearsal funeral"

02/22/2007 - by substrate from Recovery from Mormonism

In a follow-up to his now-famous speech in which he derided church members for focusing funerals on the lives of the deceased, President Boyd K. Packer yesterday convened a rehearsal funeral in the church's Conference Center.

"I said many years ago that a funeral is the best way to teach gospel principles to a captive--I mean receptive--audience," explained the octogenarian apostle." I decided that I would not leave anything to chance, so I set this event up to make sure everything goes as planned."

Accordingly, the Conference Center was decorated with large, but simple, floral arrangements. "None of those extravagant orchids and such for me," said a pleased Packer as he surveyed the bunches of lilies adorning the paneled dais.

At the appropriate time, members arose as an open casket made of polished Utah pine bearing the still-living corpse of the apostle was wheeled into the great hall. "I thought it was a nice touch and added some realism." Packer explained that he kept a small notepad and pen in the coffin with him so he could take notes as the rehearsal progressed.

"I was a little concerned with the enthusiasm of the opening hymn, 'Keep the Commandments.' We'll have to work on that some in the time before the real event."

The first speaker was Elder David A. Bednar, who expounded on the plan of salvation. "I suppose it was adequate," said Packer. "but it was missing some of his usual fervor. I suggested that he might imagine that those in the congregation were wearing multiple earrings, which I believe would fire his soul just a little."

The eulogy was given by President Thomas S. Monson, who began by telling a story of a young Boyd Packer rescuing a kitten from certain death.

At that point, Packer rose up in his coffin and rebuked Monson. "Now, Tom," he cried. "How many times do I have to tell you? This funeral is about bringing people into the kingdom! It's not about me!"

Packer's rebuke apparently startled several of the brethren, many of whom were apparently unaware that this was merely a rehearsal. Paramedics rushed to the aid of Elder Robert D. Hales, who has suffered heart problems in the past. "He scared the crap out of me," explained the apostle through his oxygen mask.

After Elder Hales was in the ambulance and order was restored, President Gordon B. Hinckley addressed the congregation. "What a great and marvelous work we are engaged in," intoned the 96-year-old church leader as he glanced repeatedly at Packer, who was furiously scribbling notes. "Well, it wasn't my cup of tea," said Packer. "But he's the prophet, and I'll not steady the ark."

The closing hymn, "Abide with Me" sounded a little better, remarked Packer. "But I'm thinking that 'Put Your Shoulder to the Wheel' might be a more rousing send-off."

After a benediction, the meeting adjourned and the mourners filed by the casket to shake Packer's hand.

"Truly moving," said an emotional Sheri Dew. "I feel that he's prepared us all so much for the eventuality of his passing, for which I am eternally grateful."

Packer great-grandson Todd Packer was heard to ask, "Mommy, is great-grandpa nuts or something?"

"No, son, he's a prophet, seer, and revelator."

Cold hearted Boyd Packer

02/17/2007 - by stones and Flew the Coop from Recovery from Mormonism

I am ashamed to say that I am related to that cold hearted bastard Boyd Packer. I would love to kick him where it counts...

If you every have the chance to meet Packer face to face you will truly feel how uptight and cold this individual is.

What a jerk!

"Yes, and this is what I experienced:

"I have meet him face to face on several occasions and it wasn't pleasant. He would not look me in the face as I spoke with him and he would not have much interest in speaking to me or my father, who knows him fairly well.

"He is very serious in his demeanor and didn't seem to know how to smile whatsoever. I have also had dinner and spent several hours with him while visiting the the VP of Beneficial Life -- my college roommates father -- and I was further disappointed by his coldness.

"Anyhow, that is my take on it and everytime I hear his lame condescending ramblings I think of the cold man I met up with in the past."

If I remember correctly I am related through my father's aunt Lilian Millet, the genology guru who has since passed on. In fact we have stories of Packer praying with Lilian when she ran into road blocks tracing our genology and then the three Nephites came to the rescue by leaving some information on her door step.

You might think I am kidding here but that is a story in our family and I used to believe that crap.

As a TBM (True Believing Mormon), Packer started to open my eyes - by Flew the Coop

I remember the time in a public encounter, a young girl about 11 years old asked Packer if he had ever talked with Jesus Christ. He chided the little girl and her parents for the impertinent question. Ironic to come from a man who supposedly is called to be a 'Witness of Christ'.

Boyd K. Packer Makes Guest Appearance as Apostle in'Jesus Christ Superstar' Now playing in SLC

02/09/2007 - by Cr@ig P@xton

Last night my wife and I went to Kingsbury Hall to see the Andrew Lloyd Webber Musical "Jesus Christ Superstar". To my utter shock and surprise...right in the middle of the classic Last Supper scene, Boyd K. Packer rushed the stage just as the actors portraying the original 12 apostles entered stage left. He grabbed a microphone out of Peter’s hands and started singing ...

Always hoped that I'd be an apostle
Knew that I would make it if I tried
I’ll write a silly book all about the gospel
So they'll still talk about me when I’ve died

Look at all my Malls and Cattle Stations
Tell the fools no tithing funds were used
Building earthly glory is my favorite passion
BYU will name a Packer building soon

Look at all my trials and tribulations
Can’t stage manage bears ... its hard to do...
Intellectuals, gays and woman’s rights will kill us
Political correctness...that won’t do

Lamanites...they use to be around us...
Now they’ve vanished thanks to DNA
Tell the membership ... I can see the future
I predict the Internet leads them away...

Always hoped that I'd be an apostle
Knew that I would make it if I tried ... And Hell I tried
By the Time I’m Prophet I will be a 100
God I wish that Gordon Hinckley would fucking die.

It was a great performance...I highly recommned the show.

The Unwritten Order of Cooking

01/30/2007 - by substrate

Welcome to Home Cooking. I'm y'all's host, Paula Deen, and today we welcome a special guest all the way from Salt Lake City. Boyd Packer is here to tell us about his new book, "The Unwritten Order of Cooking." Howdy, Boyd, it's a pleasure to have y'all here.

BKP: Excuse me, but it bothers me that you referred to me as "Boyd Packer." Can't we have the full names on your show? There is a formality, a dignity, that we are losing--and it is at great cost. There is something to what Paul said about doing things "decently and in order."

PD: Oh, OK, sorry, Boyd.

BKP: That's "President Packer" to you.

PD: Well, now, what are y'all going to show us today, Boyd--I mean, President Packer?

BKP: I'm going to demonstrate how to make a proper loaf of sacrament bread.

PD: Sounds yummy!

BKP: We need to treat the sacrament with reverence, Paula, and I don't believe the Savior would have used a word like "yummy" to describe the Atonement. And another thing, I am a little disturbed at your appearance. Your hair seems overly teased to me, like it hasn't been combed.

PD: It's not polite to criticize a lady's appearance.

BKP: Is that a second earring? President Hinckley has warned you not to decorate your body with pictures or symbols that will never wash off or to pierce your body with rings or jewelry after the manner of the world. Don't you want to follow the prophet?

PD: Those earrings were a gift from my husband.

BKP: And those pants you're wearing. Do you know what "Sunday best" means? It used to be the case. Now we see ever more informal, even slouchy, clothing in our meetings, even on cooking shows, that leads to informal and slouchy conduct.

PD: What do my pants have to do with--oh, never mind. Can we start cooking, President Packer?

BKP: I'm somewhat concerned that my bishop wasn't allowed to prepare the script for this program. Bishops should not yield the arrangement of meetings, such as cooking shows, to members and especially not to nonmembers. It is not the proper order of things for members or families or writers or producers to expect to decide who will speak and for how long. Suggestions are in order, of course, but the bishop should not turn the show over to them. We are worried about the drift that is occurring in our cooking show appearances.

PD: Well, I had no idea. Can we please get started with the recipe?

BKP: Yes, now for our first step, please look away so that I might be able to work in privacy.

PD: But we need to see the ingredients.

BKP: That's just it. These things are kept confidential lest they be given to those who are unprepared.

PD: But how will we be able to learn the recipe?

BKP: Look, Paula, there is an order to things that must be followed:

-Order—To put in ranks or rows, in proper sequence or relationship.

-Ordain—The process of putting things in rows of proper relationship.

-Ordinance—The ceremony by which things are put in proper order.

PD: No one said anything to me about ordinations or ceremonies. I think we've gotten a little off track.

BKP: Maybe it's you who has gotten off track. I believe you are a single parent who works outside of the home, correct?

PD: Yes, that's right.

BKP: I'm sorry, but this is contrary to the will of God. I cannot, because of your discomfort over your plight, abandon a position that has been taught by the prophets from the beginning of this dispensation.

PD: I've done just fine, thank you very much.

BKP: To point out so-called success stories inferring that a career out of the home has no negative effect on a family is an invitation to many to stray from what has been taught by the prophets and thus cause members to reap disappointment by and by.

PD: But how would I support myself if I didn't work?

BKP: You need to see the eternal nature of things and to know that your trials -- however hard to bear -- in the eternal scheme of things may be compared to a very, very bad experience in the second semester of the first grade. You will find no enduring peace in the feminist movement. There you will have no hope. If you know the plan of redemption, you can be filled with hope.

PD: Who said anything about feminists? I thought we were here to talk about cooking.

BKP: Absolutely not. In such meetings as this, the gospel is to be preached. I know of no meeting where the congregation is in a better state of readiness to receive revelation and inspiration from a speaker than they are when watching a cooking show. This privilege is being taken away from us because we don't understand the order of things--the unwritten order of things--that relates to the administration of the Church and the reception of the Spirit.

PD: But this is my show.

BKP: Not anymore. I should like to take for my text today James 1:5.

PD: Can someone call security, please?

What is it with Boyd K Packer & hair?

01/21/2007 - - by Travis

What is it with Boyd K. & hair? In 1976, I was a missionary in Denmark & attended an area conference in Copenhagen for all the Scandinavian countries. SWK & other general authorities were there. We were very excited because Boyd K. was going to have a special meeting with just us missionaries. Our mission president really had us hyped up & convinced Boyd K. was going to give us the magic bullet to get the work moving.

Guess what Boyd K talked about? HAIR!! I shit you not! He had a larger drawing board & illustrated how missionaries should comb & cut thier hair. He even had Elders stand up as examples.

Yes siree, if only we'd have combed our hair the Lards way many more Danes would have been saved!

What a farce!

Boyd Packer - Dallin Oaks - The Grizzly Bear

09/29/2006 - by Sourcerer


Speculation regularly arises, particularly at General Conference time, as to who may eventually ascend, by its death-defying ritual of musical chairs, to the presidency of the Mormon Church when Gordon B. Hinckley passes from the scene.

In some quarters, anxious note has been made that Apostle Boyd K. Packer may one day take the helm of the LDS Church.

One of Packer's biggest fans--at least for public consumption--has been fellow apostle Dallin H. Oaks.

Indeed, Oaks has spoken in glowing adulation of Packer, solemnly citing, for example, the senior apostle on what it means to supposedly receive divine "revelation. "

In a BYU devotional sermon under the title, "Revelation," Oaks said:

"I am going to speak this morning about revelation. Revelation is communication from God to man. It can occur in many different ways. Some prophets, like Moses and Joseph Smith, have talked with God face to face. Some persons have had personal communication with angels. Other revelations have come . . . 'through the dreams of sleep or in the waking visions of the mind' . . . In its more familiar forms, revelation or inspiration comes by means of words or thoughts communicated to the mind . . . by positive or negative feelings about proposed courses of action, or even by inspiring performances, as in the performing arts, the beautiful music we heard at the beginning of this devotional assembly being a notable example. "As Elder Boyd K. Packer has stated, 'Inspiration comes more as a feeling than as a sound' ("Prayers and Answers," Ensign, November 1979, p. 19)."

Moreover, according to Mormon sources who have been present at public events to witness Oaks' ingratiating and insincere hero worship, Oaks has bent over backwards in offering super-sweetened salutations to Packer in Packer's presence, heaping exceptionally high (some might say exceptionally obnoxious) praise on Oaks' senior partner in the Quorum of the Twelve.

If folks only knew.

Oaks has not always referred to Packer in such adoring terms--at least not in closed-door conversations.

Not only has Oaks criticized Packer behind Packer's back, he has then lied about his private attacks on Packer in public interviews with the press.

What Oaks really thinks of Packer (and then the extraordinary efforts Oaks has gone to in efforts to lie and cover up about Packer's abuse of ecclestiastical power) are detailed in Steve Benson's published account of private conversations Benson had with Oaks in September 1993, shortly before Benson left the Mormon Church.

Below are excerpts from Benson's note-taking encounter with Oaks:


In an on-the-record interview with a newspaper reporter, [Oaks] blatantly misrepresented the truth about Boyd K. Packer's involvement in the excommunication of Salt Lake author, Paul Toscano--who had attracted scowling Church attention for, among other things, suggesting that members need not perpetuate a Cult of Personality by standing up when when General Authorities walked into the room.

Oaks had shared the details of Packer's involvement with [Benson] in a . .. "confidential" meeting on September 24, 1993 (also attended by [fellow apostle Neal] Maxwell). There, Oaks confessed that Packer had inappropriately injected himself into local Church action against Toscano, in the process violating Church disciplinary procedures and opening the Church up to a possible lawsuit from Toscano.

Referring to Packer as the source of these headaches, a frustrated Oaks told [Benson] "You can't stage manage a grizzly bear." When subsequently asked by the media about rumors that Packer had worked behind the scenes to get Toscano excommunicated, Oaks claimed ignorance and denied that Packer could ever do such a thing. . . .


[Further details from the same account of Oaks' true feelings about Packer follow here]:

A question [Benson] posed to Oaks and Maxwell in the September 24, 1993, meeting concerned reports that Apostle Boyd K. Packer had been behind the excommunication of Paul James Toscano, a local Salt Lake City attorney, author and outspoken advocate for women's rights.

To understand the context of the question, it is necessary to review events at the time, as reported in the press.

Packer's suspected entanglement in the excommunication of Toscano became a subject of extensive media coverage in the fall of 1993. Toscano was excommunicated from the Mormon Church on September 19,1993, "for writing and speaking publicly about church doctrine, feminism, the state of the faith's leadership and other issues."

At the stake high council disciplinary hearing that ultimately sealed his fate, attention was focused on a Sunstone symposium speech Toscano had recently delivered, entitled, "All Is Not Well in Zion: False Teachings of the True Church," in which Toscano was alleged to have made derogatory comments . . . about general authorities." ("LDS Apostle Denies Ordering Dissident's Excommunication," Associated Press, 11 October 1993, sec, D, p. 1ff; and "Six Intellectuals Disciplined for Apostasy," Sunstone, November 1993, p. 66).

With the Mormon Church having recently disciplined the infamous "September Six" for activities relating to scholarship and feminism, speculation was rampant that Packer had been "behind the church's recent crackdown on dissidents."

That assessment proved to be well-founded. Five months earlier, Packer had warned a gathering of LDS bureaucrats that some Mormons "influenced by social and political unrest are being caught up and led away" by "the gay-lesbian movement, the feminist movement, as well as the ever-present challenge from the so-called scholars or intellectuals." ("Cartoonist Says Oaks Lied To Protect Fellow Apostle," Vern Anderson, Associated Press, in Salt Lake Tribune, 12 October 1993, sec. B, p. 1ff; and Boyd K. Packer, "Talk to the All-Church Coordinating Council," transcript, 18 May 1993, pp. 3, 4)

Packer, however, vehemently denied that he had been behind the banishment of Toscano. Specifically, he insisted he had not directed Toscano's stake president, Kerry Heinz, to convene a disciplinary council against him. While admitting to having met with Heinz to discuss Toscano, Packer assured the press, "We talked doctrine and philosophy. I absolutely did not instruct him to hold a disciplinary counsel and did not then, nor have I ever, directed any verdict. By church policy, that is left entirely to local leaders. When he [Heinz] left, I did not know what he would do." ("Cracks in the temple: Mormon unity in peril," Paul Brinkley-Rogers, The Arizona Republic, 10 October 1993, sec. A, p 1ff)

Packer further revealed to the Church-owned Deseret News that his decision to meet with Heinz had been made through a lower-ranking Church middleman. Contrary to Oaks' claim to me in our September 24th meeting that Packer had independently strayed outside approved channels of authority, Packer insisted that, in fact, he had been advised by "the brethren" to meet with Toscano's stake president.

Said Packer, "Even though general authorities of the church are free to contact or respond to local leaders on any subject, I felt there may be some sensitivity about his request. The brethren felt I could not very well decline to see a stake president. I therefore consented." ("Packer Says He Was Concerned by Request for Meeting, But Apostles Endorsed It," Associated Press, in Salt Lake Tribune, 17 October 1993, sec. B, p. 1ff)

Toscano was not persuaded by Packer's explanations. Reacting to Packer's admission of meeting with Heinz, Toscano said, "I knew all along that Boyd Packer was behind it. He's behind all this." ("Grandson of President Asks To Be Removed From LDS Church Rolls," Jennifer Skordas, Salt Lake Tribune, 11 October 1993, sec. D, p. 1ff)

In [Benson's] meeting with Oaks and Maxwell, [Benson] specifically asked if Packer had, in fact, been involved behind the scenes in the excommunication process against Toscano.

Oaks confirmed that Packer had.

Oaks told [Benson] he was "distressed and astonished" over Packer's decision to meet with Heinz, even though he said Heinz was the one who had called Packer and asked "for the meeting." Oaks said it was "a mistake" on Packer's part to have agreed to meet with Heinz, the latter whom Oaks described as "an old seminary man." (Packer had come up with Heinz through the ranks of the Church education system).

Oaks told [Benson] that, by meeting with Heinz, Packer had gone outside the bounds of his assigned responsibility. Oaks said one of his own areas of expertise was in legal affairs. Maxwell noted that one reason Oaks had been brought into the Quorum of the Twelve was to help rewrite the manual on Church disciplinary procedure. Oaks expressed concern that Packer's involvement with Heinz might lead Toscano "to sue the Church" over violation of his ecclesiastical procedural rights.

In the end, Oaks, with a note of resignation in his voice, said of Packer, "You can't stage manage a grizzly bear." . . .


[Additonal background on Oaks' public lies about Packer is further noted below]:

In early October, 1993, [Benson] accompanied Arizona Republic reporter Paul Brinkley-Rogers to Salt Lake City to assist him in making contacts with LDS leaders, spokesmen, educators and critics for a story on the recent purge of Church dissidents, notably, the "September Six."

On October 1, Brinkley-Rogers met for a prearranged, on-the-record, taped Q&A session with Oaks in his Salt Lake City Church office to discuss, among other things, recent Church action against the dissenters. [Benson] had not arranged the interview and did not join the reporter in it, as I[Benson] did not think it would be appropriate for [him] to do so. Moreover, prior to the interview, IBenson] did not speak to Brinkley-Rogers about what Oaks and Maxwell had told [Benson] concerning the Packer/ Toscano matter in [Benson's] meeting with them on September 24th.

At the conclusion of the interview, [Benson] picked Brinkley-Rogers up outside the Church Administration Building and asked how it went. He put the tape into the rental car cassette deck and pushed the "play" button. What [Benson] heard astounded --and angered-- [him].

Much of what Oaks had dished up for public consumption directly contradicted what he had told [Benson] in private. [Benson] was immediately aware of the bind that Oaks had put [him] in. He had lied to a reporter about events which he had described to [Benson] in much different terms. [Benson[] had no choice but to tell the reporter at that point that Oaks was attempting to pull a fast one on him.

So, there in a rental car in Salt Lake City, for the first time, [Benson] revealed what Oaks had shared with [him] in [their] September 24th meeting, pointing out the contradictions to what [Benson] had just heard on the tape. (see "Cracks in the temple: Mormon unity in peril," Paul Brinkley-Rogers, Arizona Republic, 11 October 1993, sec. A, p. 1ff) . . .

During the next five days, [Benson] privately struggled with how to publicly deal with Oaks' blatant dishonesties. [He] was torn between remaining quiet (thereby preserving a confidentiality agreement) or setting the record straight (thereby exposing Oaks' act of calculated deception). [He] spoke at length with [his] wife, friends, and colleagues--seeking advice and weighing [his] options. . . .

[Benson] finally decided to follow [his] gut--and [his] conscience. Oaks' misrepresentations--indeed, his out-and-out lies--prompted [Benson] to fax him a letter a few days after the interview.

It read as follows:

"6 October 1993
Elder Dallin Oaks
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
47 East South Temple
Salt Lake City, Utah 84150


"Dear Elder Oaks:

"I wish to share with you my concerns relative to our private conversation in the office of Elder Maxwell on September 24th, in relation to your subsequent comments to Arizona Republic reporter Paul Brinkley-Rogers on October 1st."

"In our September 24th meeting, I asked you if Kerry Heinz, Paul Toscano's stake president, had had any contact with, or received any instruction from, Elder Boyd K. Packer during the time leading up to Paul Toscano's excommunication. According to my notes taken during our discussion, you acknowledged that Elder Packer met with President Heinz prior to the rendering of judgment by the stake disciplinary council. You said that President Heinz was 'an old seminary man' and friend of Elder Packer during their days together in the church seminary system and that President Heinz 'called and asked for a meeting' with Elder Packer."

"You told me that you were 'distressed and astonished' that Elder Packer met with President Heinz. Referring to Elder Packer, you observed that 'you can't stage manage a grizzly bear.' You opined that 'it was a mistake for Packer to meet with Heinz and a mistake for Heinz to ask for the meeting."

"You further acknowledged that you later talked directly to Elder Packer and told him that you felt it was wrong and violated church disciplinary procedure for Elder Packer to have been in contact with President Heinz. You said that Elder Packer had no authority or responsibility to participate in such contact and you told me that you strongly urged Elder Packer not to engage in such contact in the future. You added that you fully expected Paul Toscano 'to sue' the church over this breach of procedural authority. "

"In contrast to what you told me in private, your public statements concerning the Toscano excommunication process and any participation of Elder Packer in it presented a far different picture. Mr. Brinkley-Rogers asked you: 'In the case of Toscano . . . do you have any evidence that Elder Packer [was] involved in any way in the decision-making process in the disciplining of [him]?"

"You responded: 'As for Elder Packer, Elder Packer does not have a specific responsibility for any area in the church . . . So, if Elder Packer is having any conversation with Kerry Heinz, it is outside the normal channel. That's all I can say. I have no knowledge of whether he did. But if he, and if he gave a directed verdict or anything like that, that is contrary to policy, it is irregular and it's contrary to what I know of Elder Packer and the way he operates. Elder Packer is not the least bit inclined to shrink from saying things like in the talk you saw [to the All-Church Coordinating Council, 18 May 1993]. He is a forthright, plain-spoken man, but Elder Packer is far too sophisticated and sensitive a man to call a stake president and tell him what he has to do in a church discipline case. I just don't believe that. What's possible is that a stake president might think he had heard such a thing; nobody can dismiss that possibility . . . that kind of slippage happens in communication. But Elder Packer has no, Elder [Loren C.] Dunn has a natural communications link, though an outdated one; Elder Packer does not. So, that's all I know about that at this point."

"Frankly, I find the differences between what you told me and what you told the press to be irreconcilable and ethically troubling. First, by couching your answer to the question of Elder Packer's conversation with President Heinz in the hypothetical, you falsely imply, it seems to me, that you do not know whether he did talk with President Heinz. Second, contrary to what you told me, you explicitly said to the reporter that, in fact, you were not aware if any conversations took place between Elder Packer and President Heinz. Third, your assertion that for Elder Packer to have talked with President Heinz goes against your knowledge of Elder Packer's modus operandi is contradicted by your admission to me that you knew that Elder Packer had talked to him and that you later talked with Elder Packer about it. Fourth, your blanket denial of knowing anything beyond what you told the reporter is completely undermined, I feel, by what you told me."

"In other words, you have told the truth in private about the Packer-Heinz meeting, while denying the truth in public."

"When you asked that I keep our conversation confidential, I assumed that anything you might subsequently say for the record on the matter would be at least honest, if not complete. However, what you said in public varies significantly from the facts as you laid them out to me. It appears that you have asked me not to publicly divulge our conversation in your hope that my initial agreement to remain silent would keep the accuracy of your public utterances from being challenged."

"I have concluded that to remain silent is unacceptable. It would be a cowardly and dishonest act. It would be analogous to having an individual come to me and say, 'Just between us, I killed my wife,' then turn around and tell the press that the next-door neighbor did it. I would have the clear moral obligation to set the record straight, since refusal to act would do violence to the truth and make me an accessory to the crime."

"I will not be a party to a cover-up. Your request for confidentiality, I believe, has been superceded by the fact that you have lied in public, contrary to the facts as you know them, and that your hope of confidentiality rests on maintaining the deception. It has been observed that 'a lie is like a blanket of snow. It may cover unpleasantness for a time but, sooner or later, must melt, exposing that which was hidden."

"To participate in this fraud would only serve to erode trust and destroy relationships."

"I would hope that you would feel it right to publicly set the record straight. Mr. Brinkley-Rogers' phone number is 602-271-8137. If you choose not to do so within the next 24 hours, I will have no choice but to undertake that obligation myself."



"Steve Benson" . . .

Hell hath no fury like a cover blown.

Oaks responded quickly, calling [Benson's] home the same afternoon he received the fax, in an attempt to reach [him] . [Benson's] daughter, Audrey--six years old at the time--answered the phone, as Mary Ann simultaneously picked up the line on the other end and listened.

"Is your father there?" asked Oaks, in a stern, angry voice.

"No," Audrey replied meekly, "He's at work." . . .

Oaks did not have [Benson's] office phone number but he had the reporter's, since [Benson] had given it to him. (Oaks needed to do his explaining to the person he had lied to in the interview, not to [Benson]).

Oaks left a message with Brinkley-Rogers, who returned the call that evening, reaching Oaks at home through the Church switchboard operator (CSO).

Below is the full transcript of the ensuing conversation between Oaks (O) and Brinkley-Rogers (BR), taped by Brinkley-Rogers (which he later allowed [Benson] to audio-copy and which copy is currently in [Benson's possession). It is reported here with permission of Brinkley-Rogers.

CSO (choir music in the background): "LDS Church Offices."

BR: "Yes, good evening. Uh, this is Paul Brinkley-Rogers calling from Phoenix."

CSO: "Yes."

BR: "Concerning Dallin Oaks' call. He asked me to call the switchboard."

CSO: "Yes. Just a moment, please, while I"--

BR: "Thank you. Thanks a lot."

CSO: "Go ahead, please."

BR: "Thank you."

O: "Hello, Mr. Brinkley-Rogers."

BR: "Good evening, Mr. Oaks. How are you?"

O: "Thanks for calling back."

BR: "Well, thanks for calling me."

O: "Let me put the robe on and go in another room, where I can be comfortable."

BR: "OK, sure."

O: "Thank you for calling back."

BR: "All right, sir."

O: "Somebody has called me a liar and I don't like to (inaudible) to that on a charge like that."

BR: "Oh, all right. How did that happen?"

O: "Uh, well, let me explain. I received a very disturbing letter from Steve Benson."

BR: "Hmm-mm."

O: "He compares what I said to him in a confidential setting, relating to Church issues, with a transcript of the interview that I had with you"--

BR: "Yes."

O: --"and accused me of lying."

BR: "Hmm."

O: "And I'm a truthful man and I care for my integrity and, uh, and I, I take no, uh, no little, uh, concern for something like this."

BR: "Hmm-mm."

O: "Before I talk with you about it, let me ask you a question"--

BR: "Sure."

O: --"so you'll understand why I need to ask that before I speak about this."

BR: "All right, sir."

O: "What I would like to know is the relationship between you and Steve Benson in this matter. Specifically, was Steve on a reconnaissance for you when he asked about two weeks ago for a Church interview and came into an interview, in an ecclesiastical setting, which is the occasion of this comparison?"

BR: "No, I, I had no idea that he even did that."

O: "I didn't think so."

BR: "Hmm-mm."

O: "Uh, let me ask a follow-up question."

BR: "Sure."

O: "Uh, is, are you involved in any kind of an effort that Steve is now making to extort information from me--and I use the word 'extort,' uh"--

BR: "Hmm-mm."

O: --"advisedly."

BR: "Yeah."

O: --"to extort information from me in behalf of you?"

BR: "No. I'm not aware of any such thing."

O: "Now, he had, the reason I had to ask that is that he had the manuscript that was our interview."

BR: "Yeah."

O: "And he was comparing that with notes he'd made earlier when he had a conversation"--

BR: "Oh, I see. No, I played the tape for Steve of, uh, our interview, you know, after the interview and I noticed that he looked sort of surprised by it."

O: "OK, well, then, I, I take that at face value."

BR: "All right."

O: "And, and you, what I'm going to tell you why, I, uh, oh, why I was aroused by this."

BR: "Uh-huh."

O: "Now, I assume, as I told you at the time, that you're a professional journalist"--

BR: "Hmm-mm."

O: "I assume, I take The Arizona Republic at, at face value. Uh, uh, it seems to me like it's been very professional and, and I deal with you in that light."

BR: "All right, sir."

O: "And I assume that neither you nor The Republic want to be used in Steve's grievances against, and controversies with, his Church"--

BR: "Hmm-mm."

O: --"that are rather considerable, uh, uh, controversy with his Church."

BR: "Uh-huh."

O: "I was trying to do, to deal with that in having a confidential interview with him."

BR: "OK."

O: "And now he, he has drawn in this letter to me, he's drawn these two things together"--

BR: "Hmm-mm."

O: "And I'd rather deal with you separately"--

BR: "You mean this conversation with you, uh, compared"--

O: "His conversation with me"--

BR: --"compared with the tape?"

O: "Compared with the tape, and that's, uh, what I'd like to do, is deal separately with you."

BR: "OK."

O: "And I assume that you don't want to get involved with Steve's controversies with his Church."

BR: "No."

O: "I assume that that's part of your professional approach to this and if I, if I can deal separately with you, independent of Steve Benson"--

BR: "Hmm-mm."

O: --"then it's, then it's much easier for me to (inaudible) my problems."

BR: "All right, so let's go ahead on that basis."

O: "OK, good. Now, when (cough) I received this letter from Steve, which was, uh, a very accusatory letter"--

BR: "Hmm-mm."

O: --"and, uh, I presume that you don't know about its contents"--

BR: "Right."

O: "But when I received this letter, which I did this afternoon about 5 o'clock"--

BR: "Hmm-mm."

O: --"I got the transcript out and reviewed it very carefully, the transcript of my interview with you."

BR: "Yeah."

O: "When I did that, I saw one sentence in my interview with you--and only one sentence--that I would say overstated the truth."

BR: "OK."

O: "And that sentence I want to correct."

BR: "All right, sir. Fine."

O: "And I am sorry for it, but in a, in a, our, our interview was 60 minutes long and, you know, I was shooting from the hip (inaudible) along"--

BR: "Yeah."

O: --"and it was one of those things, which called to my attention, is inaccurate and I want to correct it."

BR: "All right."

O: "The, the, the only thing I can see that I want to correct."

BR: "OK, sir."

O: "And this is a, is a, uh, oh, about one-fourth of the circumstances that, uh, that, uh, Steve cites in his letter, because I looked, uh, I looked at the others and, and, uh, I think that, uh, I, I don't, uh, feel any necessity under my commitment to integrity to make any change in what I said."

BR: "OK."

O: "But in this one instance, I do."

BR: "Hmm-mm."

O: "The sentence is, is toward the end of the interview."

BR: "Yeah."

O: "It is the, the last paragraph of the interview."

BR: "Hmm-mm."

O: "I'm looking at the transcript that was made from the recording when made here."

BR: "Yup."

O: "It's, uh, it's in this talk about the Kerry Heinz matter"--

BR: "All right."

O: "And the sentence is this, about having a conversation: 'So, if Elder Packer is having any conversation with Kerry Heinz'"--

BR: "Hmm-mm."

O: --"'it is outside the normal channel'"--

BR: "Yeah."

O: --"'that's all I can say. I have not'—"my transcript says that. It must be 'no'"—'I have no knowledge of whether he did.'"

BR: "Hmm-mm."

O: "That's the sentence that should be stricken."

BR: "OK."

O: "If you'd just strike out, 'I have no knowledge of whether he did'"--

BR: "Hmm-mm."

O: --"then I'll stand by the transcript of things that I said to you, but that statement, 'I have no knowledge of whether he did'"--

BR: "Hmm-mm."

O: --"was, uh, as I looked back on the transcript, I think that's inaccurate and I want to withdraw that."

BR: "All right. Now, um, I guess my question is, do, do you have knowledge that he did that, in that case?"

O: "Now"--

BR: "Is that what we're getting to here?"

O: "Let me just, uh, let me just say this"--

BR: "All right, sir."

O: "Uh (clears throat), when I met with Steve Benson"--

BR: "Hmm-mm."

O: --"Uh, I was trying to help Steve Benson in a matter, a Church matter, that does not concern the subject of our interview."

BR: "Hmm-mm."

O: "In the course of doing that, I spoke to him confidentially and in a privileged relationship"--

BR: "Hmm-mm."

O: --"and, uh, I think his letter and the things he says in his letter, abuse that privileged relationship, uh, in a really, uh, well, I'll stop there."

BR: "OK."

O: "And, and I, uh, [Steve] also says some things in his letter which he may share with you, I don't know"--

BR: "Hmm-mm."

O: "But he, he claims to have notes of things that I've said in the, in the conversation with him"--

BR: "Hmm-mm."

O: "I don't affirm his notes."

BR: "OK."

O: "If he shows you a copy of his letter"--

BR: "Uh-huh."

O: --"I certainly don't affirm his notes"--

BR: "Hmm-mm."

O: --"and I'm not either admitting or denying things that I, I was speaking there in a privileged relationship and I don't think that it's fair for Steve, uh, nor is it fair for me"--

BR: "Yup."

O: --"to go into a privileged relationship"--

BR: "Hmm-mm."

O: --"and for me to affirm or deny his notes, so I, I simply stand silent on what he claims took place"--

BR: "Right."

O: --"in a privileged conversation and, as a journalist, you'd understand the privilege."

BR: "Uh-huh."

O: "I think his notes are quite self-serving, but that's, that's simply my, my perspective."

BR: "OK."

O: "But what I am saying is that I just don't choose to go, uh, I don't choose to be—what's the word I'm looking for?—leveraged"--

BR: "Hmm."

O: --"into saying anything more than I said to you in the interview by Steve Benson's use of privileged information."

BR: "Hmm-mm."

O: "So, to answer your question, I'd say that I just don't choose to affirm or deny."

BR: "OK."

O: "But I do wish to withdraw a sentence which, as I read it on the transcript, is inaccurate."

BR: "All right, sir."

O: "So, I, if you will do me the favor of striking out that, you do whatever you want with what remains."

BR: "All right, sir."

O: "And I'm glad to defend whatever remains, but I cannot defend that sentence."

BR: "All right. Well, it's clear to me."

O: "All right. And I appreciate that and I appreciate the opportunity of being able to speak to you as a, on a professional basis and I, I must tell you that I make this phone call because it distresses me when somebody claims that I lie."

BR: "All right. Well, all right."

O: "Because I don't do that."

BR: "OK, sir."

O: "Well, I appreciate the opportunity to visit with you and thank you for calling."

BR: "Thanks for calling me."

O: "OK."

BR: "Bye-bye."

O: "Bye-bye."


Don't believe what Oaks says for the cameras about predator prophet-in-waiting Packer.

Behind the scenes, Oaks compares Packer to an animal that is out of control--then turns around and lies in public about what he actually knows about the man.

Oaks certainly knows what side his bread is buttered on.

Ode to Packer

09/15/2006 - by Tal Bachman

He struts like a Dark Ages papist
Thinks each "queer"'s a wanna-be rapist
Protesting too much
That some men might touch -
Could Boyd himself long to turn escapist?

The little chapel that BKP built

02/02/2006 - by FCI and others

Being a member of the faith, a building contractor and in a favored status with one or more of “The 12” can mean a steady stream of generous income in fairytale land of Utah Mormonism. Unfortunately, lurking in the dark and hidden forests of this never never land, are a few ogres, trolls, and other beasts that can turn the best of these sacred god given financial blessings into a downright hellish curse.

One such contractor learned his lesson back about 20 years or so ago. Having persuaded the church building committee that he would be the best choice for building a new chapel in what was at that point in time a rather upscale and secluded area of the southeast part of the Salt Lake Valley……. he quickly learned of his mistake…….

Forest Bend Ward - home ward of Boyd K Packer. A short drive from the exclusive Willow Creek Country Club and golf course in Sandy Utah, Little Cottonwood Creek flows through a low lying neighborhood east of Highland Drive and just north of Creek Road. The creek has at times been known to turn into a raging river and has a tendency some years to overflow its banks during the snowmelt runoff in the spring…. But as with other buildings in this affluent area, permission was given to allow building of a chapel in a known flood plain. It was about this time that the unfortunate builder learned that this particular chapel was to be different than any of the others he’d ever built.

Special zoning waivers had been given, one allowing access to a secluded exclusive drive (Forest Bend Lane) by way of the church property, behind the chapel. Another waiver, allowing about a dozen residential mailboxes to be placed on Church property at the entrance to this drive was granted for the occupants of this seeming private drive. Signs at the entrance to the drive warn anyone wanting to venture there, that it is a dead end drive with no trespassing allowed and include a plethora of “neighborhood watch” signs posted in several places along the winding narrow lane.

As the building of the chapel began, the contractor was surprised to learn that there was a daily visitor who was about to make his life and job a living hell. On his way home from work everyday, the esteemed and spiritually gifted and driven BKP would be stopping by to weigh in with his comments on the building of this edifice, as he happened to be one of the very private occupants of the little “private” lane behind the chapel.

Criticisms of the construction job were endured by the builder on a daily basis, upgrades were demanded, and other concessions were granted all at the behest of BKP. Any inflection that the contractor subtly gave to BKP in question or challenge was met with rebuke and reminders of who he was talking to.

Drive through the parking lot of the chapel and it becomes evident that there are some unusual decorative features to the buildings decadent exterior. Decorative street lights, eves, window coverings, columns, and steeple all exceed normal standards set for LDS chapels. The inside is full of similar upgrades….. As the building’s construction proceeded, the contractor became aware that many of the upgrades requested by the daily visitor were not included in the plans or the buildings budget.

Watching his tidy profit on the building slowly eroding away, the contractor began complaining to the higher level mucky mucks at COB, who could arrange to kick in a few extra tithing dollars to make him whole. Problem was… BKP already knew the building’s budget and let word out that no more was to be spent on this building than any other…. It was then that the contractor learned the hard truth of “being honest in your business dealings” – that it doesn’t always apply to those who make up the questions… those of us close to these projects kind of felt bad for the contractor, but it was evident that he’d drawn the wrong hand in the dealing of the cards and this time his luck had run out, there was no one who dared to try and tame the beast while he was devouring his prey.

Don’t worry, the contractor kept his testimony (at least for the purpose of his business interests) and was awarded many more church building contracts in the future. So remember….. As the scriptures say: Don’t build your house on sand… but if you do, be sure to watch out for those who might huff and puff and blow your profits away….. - FCI

On the topic of BKP

My late father had some dealings with him years ago while BKP was still an assistant to the vaunted 12. Pops was a member of a board for one of the organizations of the morg and worked in admin at BYU. He only questioned BKP's judgement once. It seemed to him to be a simple and non threatening effort to add something to the discussion that might help.

The only response from BKP, uttered in a condescending tone - and I quote - was, "Just whose authority are you questioning here?". Beginning and end of discussion. Dad said it wasn't a fun experience.

I knew one of BKP's sons who worked at BYU. He belied his insecure nature by his attempts to be authoritative and in charge. He, like his father, relied completely upon formal authority, having no other kind available to him. The apple fell very close to the tree. - butch cassidy

More on the little chapel that BKP built

I grew up attending the Union 5th Ward which is one of the two wards housed by the "little chapel that BKP" built. The mantra from our bishop at the time was "no more money was spent on this building than any other building in the church". I didn't figure out why this statement was so necessary until we moved into our new building.

I was around 14 years of age when the building was dedicated and was surprised to learn that not only was BKP going to dedicate the building, but that he lived around the corner. The building was far fancier than any other mormon church I had ever been in. It had real walls made out of actual drywall (instead of the standard cinderblock), nice carpet, pleasing pastel colors, brass light fixtures, attractive furniture in the foyer and it even had a set of staircases with 2 rooms at the top. I had never been in a 2 story mormon church before. Now the downside of the place: everything in it was incredibly small. We had a big ward, so conditions were incredibly cramped. Each classroom seemed like it was the size of a closet. Parking was almost non-existant. People had to park creatively in order to attend services. Because of this, they had to renovate the building because it was just too small. They added to the structure and increased all of the classroom sizes to a more usable space. They also had to buy more property from the farm/house next door to increase the size of the parking lot to a more usable size.

I can only imagine that it cost a small fortune to fix the building that "didn't cost any more money than any other ward house in the church". - clydefrog

Black policy is none of their (non-LDS) business - Packer in 1975 to Toronto missionaries

01/08/2006 - by Marvelous

I was just reading a bio about my mission prez, Elder Ballard, and it contained an anecdote about Boyd Packer's visit to the Canada Toronto Mission in 1975. Packer praised Ballard for being humble and teachable. During his visit, I attended a missionary conference at which Packer addressed the controversial LDS doctrine and policy concerning blacks and the priesthood. He stated that it was an internal matter and that if people asked about it to tell them it was "none of their business." I was surprised and disappointed at his attitude. I accepted the LDS position as inspired, but wished that the Lord would change it. I thought Latter-Day Saints should be humble about it and state that we were being obedient to Heavenly Father's will, but that someday all men would be eligible. It seemed to me that Packer was on an ego trip.

Naturally, I didn't speak ill of the Lord's anointed and kept this opinion to myself. I'm unsure who was stupider, Packer or me.

A Provo Boyd Packer Story

10/29/2005 - by Witness

Years ago, Boyd Packer's daughter was married to a student at BYU, and they lived in Provo. Her husband's little factory was working, and she had a baby at Utah Valley Hospital.

It was 1973 or 1974, as I recall, and families were not allowed in a daughter's hospital room when a baby was born--just the husband. That is the way it was then.

Elder Packer and his wife came to Provo, and went to the hospital to see their daughter. When they asked to go to the daughter's room, they were told it was against hospital rules.

It created a firestorm. Elder Packer looked at the nurse, and demanded "Do you know who I am?" The nurse, taken aback, assured the church leader she did know who he was, and told him the rule again. It did not work, of course, because no-one tells Boyd Packer "No."

Word of the incident got around the hospital very quickly. So did the example set by Elder Packer. Many never forgot it.

At the wedding

10/29/2005 - by anon f.t.

At the wedding of one of his sons Packer insisted on having everything mapped out in detail 'for security reasons'.

Of course, wedding guests don't follow everything preciseley, so Packer had an outburst. It was a wedding, for god's sake, not a Nazi rally where everyone had to march in lockstep.

When the couple cut the cake they laughingly shoved food into each other's mouths. This Packer had expressly forbidden. Another outburst by Packer because the couple had disobeyed him.

And BTW I bet none of you knew that, when the Packer family sat around the table eating dinner, once dad was done eating everyone else had to stop eating too. It did not matter if they were done or not.

Ah, life in the home of a GA.

I was in a restaurant once

10/29/2005 - by Gus

I was in a restaurant once and this loud speaking old guy two tables away was talking about how he'd been a Mission President in Europe and was good friends with Packer, who came through often.

He said he once told Packer about one missionary who had just insisted on going home a little early so he could start his advanced degree at BYU. Packer pulled out a notebook and wrote down the guy's name. "We'll see about that!" Packer said.

The ex-MP proudly said the kid had to go to school somewhere else, he was obviously telling the entire restaurant how important he use to be!

A Holy Recovery Moment. I saw BKP at Comp USA

Boyd K Packer at Comp USA

03/23/2005 - by NJV

Yeah, I am not making this up! I literally saw what I am 98% sure was the second in command of the TSCC (The So-Called Church) and yes the cause of so much mental anguish to so many of us here in the exmo community. He was in line at the Murray/Fashion place Comp USA store yesterday. I can't say it was he with 100% certainty because he looked about 70-80 years old and as BOYD has much seniority in the Mormon machine I wondering if he would be older. Does he have any younger brothers or perhaps an eldest son that is a spitting image of Brother Packer?

It all happened like this. I had woken up yesterday morning planning on going to the gym and putting in 8 hours work towards saving up money for another run at completing my education. I realized that I was out of CD-R's and blank DVD's so I went to Comp USA to get some more as I didn’t have time to look through the Sunday ads for good deals. Ironically, one of the downloaded movies I was putting on to a DVD was Eyes Wide Shut, a film with very heavy secret society overtones, you know kind of like Mormonism.

I arrived at the store, grabbed my goods and got into the queue behind some yuppies watching the ever-present Fox News on the flat screen TV. As the lines were long a cashier opened a new queue and I was lucky enough to be the first for the new line.

I stepped up to the counter and the cashier began to ring up my purchases. While he was doing this I happened to glance around the store, and as I looked to my right I gazed upon a visage that would fill me with total shock and surprise. Now, if people doubt that it was the man himself based on what I have described I'm telling you it was truly him: he had those same seminary teacher glasses, gaunt joyless face/facial features and beady calculating eyes that we have all been exposed to a hundred times during conference broadcasts. I later went on to the Latter Day Lampoon and checked photos of Boyd's face and I swear it was him.

Also, as I understand it, he lives up by the golf club in Sandy and it is only a short drive from Creek Road and Fort Union to the mall. Now, he wasn’t dressed in the GA suit we have come to expect of one of the Laaard's anointed, in actuality he was dressed exactly like all of the other typical yuppie corporate shoppers that can still afford to buy PC equipment in this depressed economy at Comp USA. He wore a modest 2002 Olympic jacket, a yuppie casual shirt, and higher quality jeans and some casual dress shoes. You know those black ones all of you well to do 40-60 year old guys wear.

Also he was not alone, Packer was accompanied by a large man about 6'3" though older, past middle age, who may have been perhaps a minion or confidant from the church security dept. He also looked like he was trying to avoid eye contact with the other customers, undoubtedly to avoid both the fawning TBM (True Believing Mormon) sycophant eager to grovel before an anointed one and perhaps a smartened up exmo like myself.

Before I express the meat of the thoughts that ran through my head during all of this I want to strongly state that he in no way gave off an aura that in any way radiated divinity or spirituality. In fact this short aging businessman gave off no more of an aura than the cashier, the guy at the help desk, or the clowns watching fox news. In fact, as my eyes caught this geezer trying to desperately avoid everyone's gaze I was struck by how very ordinary and unremarkable the man was.

Now I cannot describe the emotions that ran through my head. Your see I can easily and unequivocally state that Boyd K. Packer, well, some of his attendant teachings f***ed up my life and f***ed it up bad! You see I was a very naive TBM BIC (Born in the Covenant) kid who, well lets just say the churches teachings regarding the famous little factory caused my extreme pain and neuroses (for all of you TBM trolls, enter Boyd K Packer and masturbation in Google and see what comes up) from puberty until I smartened up to the church at age 22.

I even had the integrity to confess this perfectly normal (nothing perverse) to my hard ass,righteous earthly judge bishop when I was 19 years old, about 1998. I was not allowed to serve a mission because of frankly, my honesty and my desire to do right by God. Its okay if you're laughing. I laugh about it now too. Yeah, there have been discussions many times about how all 19 year old kids lie about this, confess other stuff but are let off because of connections, status, etc.

Also our hardcore bishop friend was later rumored to have been nearly excommunicated for using church funds to put a new roof on his house. A really righteous fellow he was. My youth was filled with pain as the insane teachings of Spencer W. Kimball (Miracle of Forgiveness) and Boyd (Famous Little Factory Speech) invariably clashed with normal feelings regarding human sexuality.

The sociological effects of my honesty (Yea this raising the bar shit encourages kids to lie about stuff like this now for sure) was also real as I spent the years of my life 18-21 trying to make myself worthy and working shit jobs. People are not inclined to hire Mormon young men who don’t go on missions as the stigma of being lazy or a sinner of some sort is always applied. I was also to stupid at this time to go to college, as all I wanted to do was clean my self up from a painful and troubled youth (My self esteem was low in my teenage years and I had gotten into drugs though I was sill a true believer) and integrate myself into what I believed was the most true organization on earth.

Now what I am going to say may sound extreme to some. But the thoughts that I had were like a person confronting their worst enemy; like a rape victim running into the perpetrator randomly on the street. I am not going to lie, for the first 3/4th's of a second after I realized whom I shared a room with I was filled with pure rage.

Two words burst into my head instantly, Blood Atonement. (Being a history major, and the Mormon history buff that I am I was reminded of brother Brigham's teachings, everyone should read up on this subject.) For that brief moment in time, the only thought pouring through my head was the law of the jungle, this man had by his organization and teachings, filled my youth with neurosis had almost literally cut off my balls. (The whole masturbation thing had lead me to be really horrible dysfunctional around women in general and as I have previously stated destroyed my self-esteem).

The stabbing rage shouted in my head to pick up the heaviest object I could find (perhaps the flat screen playing Fox News) and splatter the motherf***'s brains all over the white tiled floor. Again, this may sound bad but it only lasted less than a second did. What happened next was to me extremely beautiful and profound.

First, before I describe what came next, let me set this up with what has happened to me since I have left the church. Well very little has happened actually, I have had to work shit jobs that were mostly graveyard and have been attending Salt Lake Community College when I have had time and money trying to better myself.

Sadly I also started drinking when I left the church and that later started to become a problem. You never get the money or the brain cells back. Fortunately I have been clean for 2 months. I had moved out of my parents house a few years ago but had to move to my TBM parents house because of unemployment/bad luck streak and to assist my father in his ailing health.

While I was doing security for a steel fabrication plant last winter out by Kennecott. Boy, what a great job that was, I had to sit in my uncomfortable car overnight with no heat and shiver, remember how cold it was in Utah last year. At this point I was a sad agnostic philosophically, betrayed by a religion/culture that I had implicitly trusted and was lost and confused in an uncaring world. I turned to reading to keep myself sane on the job because nobody is going to steal a 100 ton I-beam when its 0" degrees outside and there is 3 foot covering of snow on the ground.

I began to read three very similar yet different books that had radically changed my worldview. One was Running On Emptiness by John Zerzan, a hardcore anarchist who also I think is an atheist, that talks about civilization and how advances in technology and culture invariably lead to social stratification and alienation between people who were previously spiritually together before these said "innovations."

Another was How Your Mind Can Keep You Well by Roy Masters. Master's meditation technique is basically Gnosis for dummies, though he can be hard on the ladies sometimes on his talk show. This is a book on resentment and how it can muck up your life, and a biography of Gandhi, the famous statesman who accomplished so much with the principles of treating everyone with empathy and respect, even his enemies.

At this point I was bitter, confused, and afraid, but as I began to open my mind to the content in these radically different books I was overtaken with what I can only struggle to describe. You can call it Gnosis, being born again, nirvana, or whatever the f*** you want, but at that moment on an insanely miserable winter night I was free from resentment, anger, fear, and hatred. I had no bad feelings towards anyone and knew only love and respect for everyone and the spirits that dwell within them.

I was also free from judgment as I am not God and I can never know all of the details of a person and have no right to condemn/or give them fake ego/praise, and engage in the little mental judgments people do to create the reality tunnel that they are right and "those people are wrong." I was also able to examine my relationships with women and how I had previously seen the ladies as mere things to validate my ego; in other words the girls saw in me, among other problems, someone who wanted to use them to validate my own ego as opposed to someone who would respect them.

Also I gained new insight on how the church manages to control the members so thoroughly, Mormonism is an ego trap, and the promise of being a god/breeder goddess inflates the egos of the membership thoroughly. The members are willing to give up all kinds of money and time, put up with all kinds of ridiculous guilt for that carrot on the stick guaranteeing the ultimate ego gratification of Godhood. In other words, that night I had experienced a much-needed spiritual rebirth of sorts.

Ironically, my life has sort of gone to hell since then; I had lost a few jobs and my apartment in addition to having had to quit attending school, and move back in with my parents. Also many of my friends are sort of unsavory characters and I had picked up some bad habits like drinking from them, that I am only recently cleaning up. It certainly isn't easy to keep a spirit of empathy when shit happens but I will still strongly assert (bear my testimony, if you will) that when I have been able to look past the anger and resentment that tends to manifest in my life I have been infinitely better off for it.

All of this brings us to the moment in time where I am standing there in a Murray computer store, only ten feet away from a man who has f***ed with the heads of myself and a great many of you reading this right now.

Initially I was filled with rage and surprise, at whom I was standing near to. But after this buzz burst another thought manifested in my mind. It was the same thought that I had on that cold winter night and many times since, I understood. Though I certainly don’t condone what Packer has done, (Again, my opinion.) I refused to engage in resentment and judgment of the man.

With a guy like Packer and Spencer W Kimball, for that matter, you have to wonder what events in their lives caused them to take such a hardcore stance regarding human sexuality. I mean, were these guys molested as kids or something. Has the remembrance of how their polygamist grandmothers caused them some sort of complex against all forms of sexuality. Who knows, maybe he is just a crazy old asshole?

I realized that to have resolution in my soul, I had to rise above the negativity and forgive him of the pain that has been caused. I am not bullshitting everyone when I say that I had one of the most "Gnostic" moments in my life when I let it all go, the hatred, bitterness, towards him, everything! I realized the tremendous power that comes to not reacting to a negative stimulus, even one so horrible as the cold face of Boyd K. Packer.

At this point I can say I felt as good as in any moment of my life. This is not to say that I wasn’t still surprised, I had to re-enter my debit card pass code again as I messed up the first time, but the strange serenity or the scene cleaned out all other emotions that could have been alternatively experienced.

Once I had completed my transaction, my stuff was bagged and I began to walk towards the nearest door, the cashier informed me that that door was inbound only and I had to go out the other door that could only be reached by going behind and around both queues where Mr. Packer was waiting to be checked.

As I walked back around I again gazed upon our friend. He had probably seen me look at him before and now I walked near him from nearly a head on angle as he was looking towards the queue and the door. I needed to go around him and the others in that line to circle back around to reach the correct door, and at that moment there was nearly eye contact. He was avoiding everyone's gaze.

Now keep in mind that I was about to go to the gym so I was wearing only a white T-shirt, and with myself wearing only a T-shirt, my lack of the famous Utah garment smile was easily apparent. Packer was probably aware that I had looked at him with a glint of recognition in my eye and now I was approaching him with an obvious lack of G-smile showing, yea I must be an exmo.

Though I didn’t look unnecessarily at him I could see a look of discomfort on his face, maybe not strong enough to call fear. At this time my ego briefly reappeared and I was again tempted to at least talk some shit to this unremarkable old suit. You know, say something like "Oh God hear the words of your BULLSHIT," or "How does it feel to have f***ed with so many peoples heads". But the smile that had washed over my face at the queue never wavered and I walked on by out of the store and on with the rest of my life.

I gave this man no reaction in which to validate his ego and that famous persecution complex verification that enables TBM's to continue to justify the thoughts that they are right and everyone else is wrong. I then went to the gym and had a fantastic workout and even had a decent day at work. Frankly, it was more of spiritual experience than any I ever had in the hierarchified, beuracritized, pay to play, brand of spirituality that is peddled in most of the church houses in Utah.

Life isn't always easy though, and I can have all the warm fuzzy spiritual experiences that I want but that doesn’t change the fact that there is work to done in my life. I have been one in the past to run away from my problems and every day is still a battle. I am committed to completing my education and bettering myself. Hopefully all Utah will be to me someday is a receding image in the rearview mirror of my U-haul as I am off to some teaching job.

But alas the battle continues. At my slave pit call center job I was again overtaken with resentment at how things in my life had happened and the lack of status that I have and all of those worldly things. Surprise surprise, these feelings were brought on by a woman, (this isn't as bad as you think) I mean no disrespect when I say this but, one of my supervisors is a gorgeous beguiling Bosnian girl with an astounding all class/perfect ass body and very sharp mind.

In my inter-call boredom I watched this svelte creature flow her way through the call floor on 3 inch heels (Thank god stilettos have come back by the way.) In my listlessness I couldn’t help but return to the resentful state of mind that had shadowed me for years. I thought about how although I'm still in good shape for just turning 26 I'm in no state financially/emotionally to try and win the fancy of the ladies anywhere.

I also began to think about a Mormon girl that I have known that was very exceptional and interesting as a kid and had shown great potential as a youth to see beyond the Mormon fraud (My opinion on the church is based on what I consider damning objective evidence like the Book of Abraham translation fraud) as she had traveled all over the world, was very good at TaiKwonDo, never shied away form an R rated movie, and had even gotten one of those dumb Charisma Carpenter tattoo's right above her ass like all of the other ladies were doing for a few years ago.

Sadly, she has grown molly Mormon as of late and I recently heard that she was engaged to some TBM dullard and is committed to making some more Mormon babies. (Ok I have never met the guy, but he's Mormon and there getting married in the temple so how cool could he be?) It really saddened me to think of this remarkable person as one of Brigham's breeders, a formerly exceptional woman becoming just another Mormon wife/baby factory. (You know, hey woman you have no power, go breed us some more tithe payers, oh yeah, don’t forget to feel constantly guilty for things you have done in the past.)

At this point the thought of why didn’t I splatter Boyd's brains all over the Fox TV screen returned to me. For a few minutes the rage again flowed through my mind but as before, I again knew where to let my thoughts flow. You see life is a bitch and in this postmodern, dog eat dog world that we live in, things can be f***ing brutal. Also on top of that there is a legitimate chance (Hey I don’t know, I have never been dead) that there may be no afterlife to look forward to. The world has little (well none) sympathy for a dumb Utah Mormon who was stupid enough to admit wanking to his authoritarian bishop.

But you know what, it doesn’t matter, yeah I'm serious, in my opinion it doesn't matter, because what we do have is the here and now. And that… is sacred enough. Whatever happiness in life happens, so much is beyond our control. (I'm not saying people shouldn’t seek after justice, on the contrary) But the love/empathy/respect that we can show the people in our lives is not, we all have the same choice either to love or to hate to have respect or disdain or to have empathy or to persecute.

After I got my head strait, I re-affirmed my commitment to being part of the solution and not part of the problem. To me all humans are worthy of respect whether it be the hot Bosnian girl, Boyd K f***ing Packer, or everyone else in between and I am committed to helping bring forth a brighter day by my attitude and my willingness to do what needs to be done. If I had smote ol' Boyd down to the ground or even verbally abused him, I would have been a part of the problem and not the solution.

Simply put, life is short and there has to be a better way regarding how the church and other spiritual institutions are run so I am going to end this by directing some words to none other than you Mr. Boyd K Packer, so called apostle and second in succession of a very powerful and influential institution, wherever the hell you are.

What I am going to say is now aimed solely at you. Also, I am not addressing the big powerful, suit and tie, everyone adores me, Boyd K Packer stands at the giant pulpit in the conference center, nor am I addressing the casually dressed shopper, simply wishing for some anonymity while buying new computer equipment. Forget all of the roles you have had, obtained, or been assigned by others in the course of you're life and listen to me, one human soul filled with the divine spark to another.

When the inevitable happens and Gordon B. Hinckley dies you will take upon yourself a powerful mantle and will be revered by millions of people. This includes an exceptional woman that I care for very deeply. I ask you, how will you conduct yourself when they eventually drop Hinckley's carcass off at the morgue?

Though you and I know after our brief eye contact that we were equal spirits before God, (If there is one) and only worthy of his presence if we express him outwardly to others through empathy, your flock thinks that some pretty profound shit goes on with you in your Masonic rip-off holy of holies temple. (Well some do, many others are merely telling you what you want to hear.)

When you get to sit in the big chair, what will you do, how will you conduct yourself? WILL YOU BE LIKE ALL OF THE OTHERS OR WILL YOU BE DIFFERENT. The only reason nothing has changed and your religion continues to alienate decent people like me is because no one has had the courage to dislodge their egos from the apparatuses of power and take responsibility for the past.

All you have to do to change the world is put all of the holy books away, all of the decrees, commandments, rituals, and all of the rest of your ego morphine that keeps your pride from burying your conscience. If you want communion with the only spirit that matters, please I implore you, go and sit still alone, just you and your conscience let everything else go and you will know how to lead in the right way.

The church has condemned far too many for behaviors that are all to human to continue to function with any degree of legitimacy. Hell Boyd, if you will remember I mentioned Gandhi earlier, now there was a guy who knew how to bring about positive progress in the plight of men, why not put the Doctrine and Covenants down and read up on him instead? Its not too late to do the right thing man, as long as you are breathing you can bring to this world goodness.

Some people on this board and other places have cast you as an hopelessly evil man who rips people apart like L Tom Perry for presenting a human story about the apostle chocolate tradition (You guys are right those folks at Cummings know what they are doing) or verbally abusing people who are without a white shirt in the church office building. (Or was is a tie, I don’t remember) Remember Boyd, I was sorely tempted to make fun of you and your closely held temple rituals in a public place and wisely decided to refrain, taking the higher ground. In doing so I left you, and myself, with our dignities intact; is there a chance that this approach would work for you as well considering that you have much more worldly power than I ever will.

If you are as bad a person as everyone says then consider how profound it would be to stand reborn and reinvent yourself, the greater the crime/pain the more profound the redemption. You don’t have to be the grizzly bear we have held in disdain all of these years.

Now I am going to say things that you may find hurtful but remember they are directed at the institution known as Mormonism and not you. The bottom line is this, your religion is a verifiable fraud and this had been proven numerous times through the years from the Book of Mormon translation fiasco to Mark Hofmann playing you guys like a f***ing violin. There is no way a just supernatural force would channel himself through Joseph Smith (I'm going to refrain from calling him things like a lazy treasure hunter or a sexual deviant, since you undoubtedly have heard them all before) and if he did receive supernatural aid it is a legitimate possibility that it was from a nefarious source. Those pentagrams on the Nauvoo temple look an awfully lot like the ones those devil heavy metal bands display.

All that has to be done to change the world is a change in the heart of a single man, do you have the integrity to face up to the churches crazy past, and the fact that your faith is currently maiming people today with ridiculous crippling guilt and obligation. Will you be the one to unlock the gates of unconditional love to flow down upon your thirsty flock to drink? Or, will it be more of the same: the guilt, the pride and worship of outward images that is fostered in your people that causing them to worship only material things, like SUV's goofy MCMansions and the like.

The culture that causes people to worship those with the most expensive suit, often with disastrous results as liars, conmen, and real perverts have infiltrated your midst. The same old culture that has Utah among the highest in personal bankruptcies and SSRI antidepressant consumption. I say these things because your church, quite frankly is rapidly dying with the churches past and present sins being on the internet for all to see. Invariably you will only attract the slow-witted and needy into your ranks, a cadre of people that will contribute little to you shiny suit, image only dream. Ironically the only way to save your institution is to do the right thing exactly as I have stated. You must be open about the chicanery of the past and remove all of the cancerous ego-god bullshit from your institution or it will fade into ridiculous nothingness before the judgment of time.

You can either be remembered as the man who took a stand and changed history or a ridiculous old fool pretending to be a "prophet" guiding one of the goofiest institutions ever to grace the face of the earth.

Also before I finish, I also understand and sympathize with you that you may be in a terrible position. You may want to do the right thing but may not be able to act for fear of the harm that may come to loved ones. Ones family and friend are one of life's most precious jewels and are worthy of protection, as this is a noble concern. Also I sympathize with you regarding the potential scenario that the office that you now hold or will hold when Hinckley dies possesses no real power, and you are merely a puppet from whose strings lead back to other groups that dwell behind the scenes. (Whether it be a Council of Fifty type of organization, some crazy Danite like group, a version of the often mentioned Masonic conspiracy, or perhaps groups unknown to the uninitiated profane like myself).

If this is true, you probably feel even more powerless than I do, having started off in the con as a wide eyed kid just looking to do a job and wasn’t smartened up until it was to late. To conclude, if you actually read this thank you Mr. Packer for your time and may your journey through this life and whatever lies beyond be a happy and meaningful one. Hint: clearing your conscience makes a person feel great, at least it did for me. You know what to do.

All right, that’s my story and I'm sticking to it, remember we live in a F***ed up world (I personally am not a big fan of oil wars myself) and Mormonism isn't the only human institution to have problems. Indeed there may be hard times ahead. On top of that there may be no interventionist sky-daddy savior that will come down at the last minute and save us from ourselves. Because of this I implore everyone to love those in your life who deserve to be loved and rise above resentment and anger to those who have wronged you and everyone else.

Give them a chance to redeem themselves. I even mean this about Mormonism and may we come upon a better world for tomorrow, a world we will have to build all by ourselves. (Actually sound like fun.) I mean this to the crazy hot Bosnian girl, the exceptional girl form my neighborhood who sadly may have sold her soul, the fool bishop who used church money to put on a new roof and even you Boyd K. Packer of all people, you spawn master of a thousand neuroses. Oh yeah and everyone else especially everyone at

Cheers. Sincerely,

NJV - Kolob 666th Ward, Nearby Utah Stake

Boyd K Packer snap out of it.

I come to you in desperation - Elder Boyd K. Packer

03/01/2004 - posters at Recovery from Mormonism Bulletin Board

I have a question for all you apostate exmo's:

While many of you appear to still have "baggage" from your stints in the one true church, I have noticed while lurking here that many of you appear to feel a true peace about your present way of life.

My question is, since I am an apostle in the one, true, church (we have ELEVEN MILLION now!), and I have devoted my entire life to it, why am I so angry and miserable? I always talk about the "Great Plan of Happiness", and I've tried to live it, I have, and still......nothing. No happiness, no peace, no understanding - just a strange kind of incomprehensible inner turmoil. I have this gay thing I can't get over, and it just irritates the hell out of me all the time, all day and all night; Pres. Hinckley's been teaching false doctrine for 8 years and no one can explain to me why, and that drives me insane; I keep ordering that "intellectuals" be booted out of the church, like I thought I was supposed to, but there's no peace there, either; I've even demanded that church-employed teachers and historians misrepresent or withhold facts (i.e., lie) just to bolster faith in the church, like I thought we were all supposed to. I even had one of my own relatives, Lynn Packer, fired from BYU for breaking the Paul H. Dunn story years ago. And still - nothing. No joy, no peace, no love. This just does not compute.

I've done everything I thought I was supposed to do, and I'm bitter, angry, and confused.

I have nowhere else to turn. In this moment of weakness (I think of myself as Jesus on the cross, wondering "Why hast thou forsaken me?"), I ask you for your ideas.

Yours bewildered in the gospel,

Elder Boyd K. Packer

Acting President
Quorum of the Twelve Apostles
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

Let's discuss this problem over a couple of beers. - activejackmormon

I'll introduce you to a few gay ex-mos who can probably explain your gay envy and why you and your factory feel so frustrated and you feel such loathing towards yourself and your compadres.

Also, in the words of Dr. Seuss, your shoes are on too tight and so are your garmies. I've got some nice fruit of the loom boxers that are about as soft and comfy as it gets. This ought to change complexion down there from BYU blue to UofU crimson.

Another thing my dear Boyd, suppressing truth is unhealthy. Like a woman whose child is not that of the apparent father's, the guilt can be intense. Thinking that you are lying for some non-existent God only compounds the internal disharmony.

My friend, come clean. There is still time to salvage your life and make it one that serves humanity, not some money-grubbing cult of senile and myopic old men.

Next Sunday, instead of going to church and trying to stay awake, meet with a few of us ex-mos at Squatters at noon and try their hefeweisen. Within the year, you'll not only have a pony tail but your first tatoo as well.

Thanks for posting. Your post just might have changed your life.

Dear Emperor Caligula K. Packer? - 2 of 6

I think you underestimate the beneficial effects of masturbation. Get in the bathroom and really "peal one off", and I promise you will feel much better about yourself.

Come to terms with your man/boy fascinations. It's alright, we already suspect it so free yourself. Nothing good can come from hiding behind your gruesome facade.

God didn't "curse" you with these afflictions. He's as cruel to me as he is to you. Deal with it.

And no, no one likes you. We accept that you are a right proper prick. Gordo's been flipping you the bird while you're behind his favorite tree, pronouncing your condemnations on the world.

You know, come to think of it, why don't you go fuck yourself!!

With love.

I am asking for a chance! Please....! I have no one else to talk to... - Elder Boyd K. Packer

Now I'm even more confused. I don't understand the profanity and the anger toward me. You have to understand - I grew up in the church, I went to war when I was just young and tried my best to obey the commandments and do everything I'd been taught while I was over in the Pacific, and indeed God protected me. He answered my prayers. In return, I have dedicated my life to what I have always thought of as "the great plan of happiness". I've never known anything else.

When I got home from the war, I met my wife and we got married. I was so grateful to God for her, I redoubled my efforts to dedicate my life to God's church. I even became involved in the CES. I always submitted to my priesthood file leaders, even when I thought they might be making a mistake, because I had been told this was the Lord's way. And in fact, I felt many times that some power beyond me was helping me help the youth under my guardianship.

That was many years ago. Ever since then, I have always tried my best to preach the gospel. I am being made fun of on this board because of my "gay issue", but in Leviticus it says gay is so bad you'd have stone offenders, and Paul in the New Testament says it's bad, too. What else am I supposed to have thought about it? I've always believed the scriptures were inspired by God.

I notice also my comment about the testicular factories within every male is a source of ridicule - but my priesthood file leaders always have said that masturbation is a perversion of the divine procreative power. Was I supposed to have doubted them?

I admit that telling everyone who doesn't have a testimony, to just start bearing it until they finally convince themselves they have one, wasn't my finest moment - but when you give ten thousand talks over fifty years, who doesn't throw a few wild pitches?

As for the recommendation on here for me to masturbate, it has been decades since I felt even the merest tingling in that most holy region of my temple, so I don't think realistically this is an option, even if this is a serious suggestion.

No - I came on here for help. I am nearing the end of my life, and it has been a life spent doing what I thought I was supposed to, even to the point of making myself very unpopular. I did it all, because I thought the supreme creator of the universe wanted me to. I did it all, because I thought it would give me and others joy. I did it all, because I have believed that Joseph Smith saw everything he claimed, and literally did translate ancient plates. I do derive joy from my large family, but it is hard for me not to notice that this phenomenon is not exclusive to LDS church members. Outside of this, I find myself hollow, alone...really cold inside. I never feel light-hearted, and can't remember ever feeling that way at all. I sincerely just do not get it.

How can it be true that my entire life has been spent trying to further a "great plan of happiness", that, when I am honest with myself, hasn't really worked for me? Have I wasted my life? And I don't even know what to make of these latest DNA reports coming in about the Book of Mormon. For the first time, ever, that one, horrific, nightmarish thought has popped up in the very back of my mind...."what if?". can't be......can it? I can't even talk to Pres. Hinckley about it. He says his PR people are adamant that he and I have no contact, since it could lead to "seriously bad publicity if we are ever seen together". I can't believe that after fifty years of just teaching what the church always stood for, Pres. Hinckley is distancing himself from me because I'm apparently "a potential embarrassment because of my doctrinal positions" (his words) to the church. Well, excuse me, but those WERE our "doctrinal positions" until Hinckley began consulting with his PR handlers and spin doctors rather than the quorum of the 12, and changing everything! How was I supposed to know he was going to do that? Was I supposed to disbelieve the "gospel was eternal"? I feel really betrayed, and I have no one to talk to.

Please help me, someone. I'm sorry if I've upset people on here with the gay thing. I only did it because I thought it was right. I just need help.

I don't want booze and a porno mag.

I need real answers.


Elder Boyd K. Packer

Acting President (in crisis)

Quorum of the Twelve Apostles
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

Aww, poor baby. Let's talk about it - Sara

Here's my 10-step recovery plan for you, Elder Triple K:

1. Get a little high, it'll calm you down.
2. Stop drinking the blood of teenagers, because you won't steal their power that way.
3. Watch "Dogma".
4. Go to Starbucks. Starbucks is good.
5. Call Gordy a "demon-cock-sucker" to his face.
6. Give yourself an eye-popping orgasm.
7. Tell yer buddies that the BoM is false.
8. Get stoned again, it will be much easier to do all of this stoned.
9. Tell the media that Joseph Smith was a pimp, and all those little girls he married were his bitches.
10. Relax!

If you do all of this, not only will exmos stop being pissed at your homophobic, sexist filth that makes us all want to vomit, but we'll write a little song about you. Something that rhymes "Packer" with "cracker". That's a good rhyme.

(Sobbing) - Elder Boyd K. Packer

I see now I really do have no one to talk to. Not Gordie, not my wife, not you guys. No one.

No reason to keep on living,

Elder Boyd K. Packer

Acting (Acting Suicidal, that is) President

Quorum of the Twelve Apostles
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

And Boyd, dear, your wife feels worse about the whole thing... - Imlois

...than you do. Because as a woman, she was never allowed to follow her own ideas....just yours. She was never allowed to tell you how phony the whole first vision was because the priesthood holders told her that it was Satan trying to sway her. She just kept having your children and living alone in her truly sad for both of you. But! Just think! Now you know the truth, you both can live a new life with happiness and peace between you. She can state her mind and give advice and you can take it without feeling like you are betraying your priesthood; you've lost it! You both are now EQUAL partners in a relationship. EQUAL in all ways.

Boyd K. Packer as used car salesman....

02/26/2004 - Perry Noid

Here is an original quote from Boyd K. Packer:

“You seminary teachers and some of you institute and BYU men will be teaching the history of the Church this school year. This is an unparalleled opportunity in the lives of your students to increase their faith and testimony of the divinity of this work. Your objective should be that they will see the hand of the Lord in every hour and every moment of the Church from its beginning till now.”

“Church history can be so interesting and so inspiring as to be a very powerful tool indeed for building faith. If not properly written or properly taught, it may be a faith destroyer.”

“There is a temptation for the writer or the teacher of Church history to want to tell everything, whether it is worthy or faith promoting or not.”

“Some things that are true are not very useful.”

“That historian or scholar who delights in pointing out the weaknesses and frailties of present or past leaders destroys faith. A destroyer of faith — particularly one within the Church, and more particularly one who is employed specifically to build faith — places himself in great spiritual jeopardy. He is serving the wrong master, and unless he repents, he will not be among the faithful in the eternities. ... Do not spread disease germs!" - Boyd K. Packer, "The Mantle is Far, Far Greater Than the Intellect", 1981, BYU Studies, Vol. 21, No. 3, pp. 259-271

Boyd K Packer Edsel salesman.

Now let's imagine that instead of gaining employment in the Church education bureaucracy, Boyd had pursued a career in used car sales. Can't we legitimately imagine him as a sales force trainer saying something like the following?

Regional Sales Supervisor Boyd K. Packer:

“You senior used car salesmen and some of you junior salesmen and franchise marketing personnel will be selling not only cars but also the reputation of our franchise this fiscal year. This is an unparalleled opportunity in the lives of your customers to increase their trust, loyalty and testimony of our used car franchise and our highly profitable vehicle maintenance plans. Your objective should be that they will see nothing but high quality and reliable service in every hour and every moment of the franchise's history from its beginning till now.”

“The history of our franchise can be so interesting and so inspiring as to be a very powerful tool indeed for building trust and customer loyalty. If not properly written or properly taught, it may be a trust destroyer.”

“There is a temptation for the salesman or the franchise marketing executive to want to tell everything to the customers, whether it is worthy or trust promoting or not.”

“Some things that are true are not very useful.”

“That salesman or marketing executive who delights in pointing out the weaknesses and frailties of present or past management policies destroys customer trust. A destroyer of trust — particularly one within the franchise, and more particularly one who is employed specifically to build trust and build up the market value of our franchise name — places himself in great occupational jeopardy. He is serving the wrong master, and unless he repents, he will not be among those promoted to higher positions or retained as an employee by the franchise in any future economic downturn..."

- Boyd K. Packer, "The Used Car Business is Far, Far Greater Than the Used Cars", 1981, Regional Sales Conference, Vol. 21, No. 3, pp. 259-271

Happened to me in 1983...

02/26/2004 - Ramses

but I was not alone. I don't know how many people were there - maybe just me and my patriarch. BKP was very friendly and shook our hands. As we were from Germany he inquired a little about us. Not that I was fan of his but for fairness I must add that he was friendly. Not phoney nice. Not grinning like some do in Utah (or the US). I remember once before that he passed by me in his car and waved at me since I nodded a greeting. He might have plainly ignored that.


My uncle knew Boyd as a youth in Brigham City. Said Boyd was a whimp. All the other Mormon boys constantly picked on him. Claims he helped throw Boyd in a canal once to re-baptise him whether he needed it or not. Can't understand why everyone fears him so much. He's just a self-righteous narrow minded church leader, full of himself with very little charisma, not the head of the military or the police. The Mormon police state was dismantled over 100 years ago. - 12/22/2003 - anon

Boyd called the shots

09/11/2003 - submitted by carolsue

Yes, I too had the experience of spending a week one evening with Boyd. It was in the Fall of 1974. My now ex and I had been invited to the home of his daughter,who,along with her husband and children, were in the same Seattle ward we attended. As we sat around the living room conversing, Boyd called the shots as to what was discussed.

During the course of the conversation I commented on how it was my first time living in Seattle, and that I was not yet used to how the constant drizzly rain sometimes made it difficult to do some activities, like pushing a baby stroller a mile to the grocery store.

Well you would have thought I had shouted, 'Fire.' He immediately retorted with the comment, 'WEll, I NEVER let the weather get in the way of my plans!'

Silence in the room. So much for a lovely evening at the foot of an apostle. I do want to thank him for helping me in my eventual exit from L.D.S. Inc.

Sterling McMurrin on Boyd Packer

09/10/2003 - submitted by Langdon

From a public interview at a Symposium in August, 1993:

Jack Newell: There is a lot of talk right now about 'threats' to the church, and as you know, Elder Packer gave a speech in May suggesting that the chief threats to the church are the so-called intellectuals, the homosexuals and the feminists. What would you say, if you were to say what are the chief threats to the welfare of the LDS church in the future are?

Sterling: Oh, I thought you were going to ask me to comment on Elder Packer!

Jack Newell: Oh, I wouldn't restrain you from doing that!

Sterling: I was kind of looking forward to the opportunity. Well, I will just make a very short statement: I think he is a total disaster to the LDS church.

Packerson's Disease Epidemic Among General Authorites

06/26/2003 - Dick Byrnes, M.D.

Doctors in Salt Lake City announced today that a General Authority of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints General was treated for Packerson's disease. The three hour procedure was successful in removing a four foot long impacted semen plug. (The crusty, impacted front end was snagged with a small steel hook inserted through the urethra. The worm like structure was then carefully extracted, relieving Parkinson's-like symptoms caused when the base of the brain is constantly bathed in a reservoir of backed up fluid).

"This patient's treatment was especially complicated", said Dr. Seymour Peters, a member of the treatment team. "A case like this with sixty plus years of backup is never seen outside of Utah, and even there, only rarely. The consistency of the obstruction at the brain end in such cases is like raw egg white, making it extremely difficult to work out in one piece. This should serve as a warning to all men of the dangers of years of self restraint, and of the importance of periodically running this 'little factory' [as the system was once referred to in a well known pamphlet authored by the patient]".

The patient is recovering nicely, sleeping peacefully, with a faint smile (presumably of relief) on his formerly leaden face. There is reported to be a moderate tremor remaining in his right hand. Doctors note, however, that this is not uncommon, and can in fact be used in physical therapy to help prevent a recurrence of the condition.

Boyd K Packer - Captain of Little Factory Police Department

Parkinson or Packerson's Disease?

06/26/2003 - anon

I would bet next year's tithing that Boyd K. Packer has Parkinsons Disease. Anyone who has taken care of an elderly family member with this malady would recognize the features in Elder Packer. The mask like face. The pill rolling resting tremor. The shuffling gait. The rigidity. Not of thought. That is a different problem with a longer history. Interesting facts about this disease. It often involves severe depression which would explain Packer's general grumpiness. Also rare individuals actually get psychotic. And one recent discovery is that it is associated with not drinking coffee. Something in coffee might prove to be protective from it. Wouldn't that be ironic.

Previous church leaders with this problem include N. Eldon Tanner, Marion G. Romney, Legrand Richards. Maybe even Spencer W. Kimball which would be all three of the 1st presidency back when Hinckley was given the reins of leadership. Come to think of it James E. Faust probably has a mild case of it too.

So quit picking on these sick old men. If they perform any better than the typical patient down at the Vets Hospital we should applaud them. It is the foolish Mormon sheep who hold them up to such impossible heights who should be ridiculed.

A Double Dose of Boyd

05/29/2003 - Connell "Rocky" O'Donovan - Santa Cruz, California

I met Elder Darth K. Vader in 1981 in Brazil. I was on a mission in Porto Alegre and Vader was to be there to dedicate a new stake and hold a conference with the missionaries. Since I was one of the better Portuguese speakers from the US, I was asked to be his personal interpreter for a 24 hour period. The days leading up to the conference were filled with growing excitement on my part.

But then the day came, I quickly found that Vader was gruff, rude, arrogant, and bored. He would give his own talks in Spanish (which the Portuguese-speaking Brazilians could generally understand) but for any talk or conversation given in Portuguese, I was told to hover behind him and whisper the English translation into his right ear. I learned later that he was asleep throughout most of the conference and hadn't heard a word of the translations I struggled so hard to make for him. He never even thanked me ONCE for my 24 hours of translation duties.

Despite his rude behavior to me and the local leaders, I did get the courage to ask him for a photo of us together. He glared hard at me but consented. I still have that photo of us side by side, with his sour look on his face. This experience was a serious brick in my path out of Moronism.

A decade later I had another brush with His High Holiness. In 1991 I had come out of the closet after going through 15 years of the "Lord's program" for my sexual salvation. A bitter and angry Fag, I had stopped believing in Mormonism because of its pervasive relics of barbarism: racisim, sexism, and homophobia. I had gone through one "court of love" a few years prior, but had been put on eternal probation. This go round, however, I was a finalist for Queen of Outer Darkness and faced an excommunication trial; having been through a horrendous, degrading and hateful "court of love", I was planning on secretly recording the proceedings and then publishing them verbatim so that the world could know what goes on behind the closed doors of an excommunication trial. Unfortunately my reputation as an angry Queer activist preceded me.

Paul Hanks, the stake president of Salt Lake's "Marmalade District" on Capitol Hill, contacted Loren C. Dunn about my "special case". (I had shown up at Paul's orifice in tie-dye, barefeet, and had refused to call him "President Hanks" - just "Paul". I also testified with tears in my eyes that god is a Lesbian! He was horrified at the audacity of my heresy.)

To make a long story a wee bit shorter, Dunn had contacted Packer about my heretical behavior and Packer had commanded Dunn to command Hanks to excommunicate me summarily. Lord Vader said I was NOT to have a trial because my testimony might sully the ears of the poor brethren in attendance and I should be given no opportunity to express my heresy to the pure in heart. So abrogating my ecclesiastical right as a Melchizedek priesthood holder to a trial by 12 priesthood peers, I was kicked out and never had my chance to expose the horrors of Zion's Courts of Love.

Recently I wrote a letter to Russell Henderson at the Wyoming State Penitentiary. He's the Mormon lad incarcerated there for life for the kidnapping, torture, and brutal murder of Matthew Shepard, a gay student in Laramie, Wyoming, whom Russell and a friend picked up at a gay bar (posing as gays themselves). I asked Henderson if he felt that Apostle Darth K. Vader's talk (For Young Men Only) encouraging Mormon men to acts of violence against gays had any influence on his decision to torture Matthew to death. If so, I plan on writing to Vader with Henderson's response and letting the Pack-Man know that Shepard's blood, crying out for justice, is on his hands as well.

BTW, if you want to write or visit Packer at home, his address is:

1850 Forest Bend Drive
Salt Lake City UT 84121

When I was a security guard at Temple Square I had to go to his home once. It's a ghastly nouveau riche mansion behind a giant iron gate and fence. So like His Holiness!

U.S. Trademark Office lists Boyd as "dead"

05/24/2003 - cricket

Goods and Services (ABANDONED) computer software and compact discs containing movies for interactive entertainment, television and cable programming services
Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 74322386 Filing Date October 14, 1992 Filed ITU FILED AS ITU Published for Opposition April 6, 1993
Owner (APPLICANT) Digital Pictures, Inc. CORPORATION CALIFORNIA 2420 Sand Hill Road, Suite 300 Menlo Park CALIFORNIA 94025
Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED Attorney of Record Sally M. Abel
Other Data "BOYD PACKER" is not the name of a living individual
Live/Dead Indicator DEAD Abandonment Date September 8, 1994


I met Boyd the paranoid when I was serving as assistant to the mission president in Tokyo, Japan in 1978. I was a TBM if there ever was one, and expected a spiritual experience as I met the first general authority whose path crossed my own in such a personal way. I spent several minutes in the room with him, shuddering in awe. He avoided looking in our (my companion's and my) direction and was terse and bothered when I shoved my hand at him, determined to have a handshake with a live GA. He was a real turn-off, and my youthful hopes and expectations were crushed. - 05/18/2003 - anon

Boyd K Packer's Little Factory speech in To Young Men Only.
The infamous "Little Factory" sermon preached October 2, 1976 at the Priesthood Session of General Conference was made into this pamphpet and is for sale to this day at the LDS Distribution Center. However, this sermon has been deleted from the online Church magazine archives located at


"I wish to explain something that will help you understand your young manhood and help you develop self-control. When this power begins to form, it might be likened to having a little factory in your body, one designed to produce the product that can generate life."

"This little factory moves quietly into operation as a normal and expected pattern of growth and begins to produce the life giving substance. It will do so perhaps as long as you live. It works very slowly. That is the way it should be. For the most part, unless you tamper with it, you will hardly be aware that it is working at all."

Boyd K Packer wanka wanka wanka. "As you move closer to manhood, this little factory will sometimes produce and oversupply of this substance. The Lord has provided a way for that to be released. It will happen without any help or without any resistance from you. Perhaps, one night you will have a dream. In the course of it the release valve that controls the factory will open and release all that is excess."

"The factory and automatic release work on their own schedule. The Lord intended it to be that way. It is to regulate itself. This will not happen very often. You may go a longer period of time, and there will be no need for this to occur. When it does, you should not feel guilty. It is the nature of young manhood and is part of becoming a man."

"There is, however, something you should not do. Sometimes a young man does not understand. Perhaps he is encouraged by unwise or unworthy companions to tamper with that factory. He might fondle himself and open the release valve. This you should not do, for if you do that, the little factory will speed up. You will then be tempted again and again to release it. You can quickly be subjected to a habit, one that is not worthy, one that will leave you feeling depressed and feeling quilty. Resist that temptation. Do not be quilty of tampering or playing with this sacred power of creation. Keep it in reserve for the time when it can be righteously employed."

"One of you, perhaps, has not fully understood until now. Perhaps your father did not talk to you. You may already have been quilty of tampering with these powers. You may even have developed a habit. What do you do then?"

"First, I want you to know this. If you are struggling with this temptation and perhaps you have not quite been able to resist, the Lord still loves you. It is not anything so wicked nor is it a transgression so great that the Lord would reject you because of it, but it can quickly lead to that kind of transgression. It is not pleasing to the Lord, nor is it pleasing to you. It does not make you feel worthy or clean."

"There are ways to conquer such a habit. First of all, you must leave that alone long enough for it to slow down. Resisting is not easy. It will take weeks, even months. But you can get the little factory slowed back to where it should be."

"Many of the world would, I am sure, be amused by this counsel. Let them be amused. They live by a another standard, a lower one. We live by the Lord's standard and continue to teach it."

Boyd the Blue Shirt Bouncer of the Church Administration Building

03/05/2003 - CO2

I recently had lunch with a General Authority friend of mine that offices in the Church Admin Bldg. When I arrived to pick my friend up I went up to his office. I was wearing a fairly conservative blue shirt, stays in the collar and perfectly ironed with medium starch, complimented with a red / yellow tie and a very nice Italian dark blue faintly pinstripped double breasted suit and polished black oxfords.

On my way down the hall I ran into Boyd K Packer who actually had the gall to ask why I was wearing a colored shirt in that building and lightly scolded me. He doesn't know me at all by the way, I'm a stranger to him.

I couldn't help but think, my god Boyd, what would Jesus wear you senile old crank???? What a dip shit. I just smiled and said I wasn't fond of white shirts. He scowled and continued in his appointed round.

Had I been a True Believing Mormon, I would have been devistated. As it was I found it one more evidence of lunacy. I think I'll wear bright red next time, with a huge pink carnation in my lapel.

BTW, I think Packer is the only one that would ever say anything like that, maybe Monson if the mood struck him. God help us when Hinckley dies.

The day I almost died in sacrament meeting

02/26/2003 - by theAntiSprite

It was the week AFTER I got that pamphlet. My best friend (also a deacon) and I were sitting in church minding our own business playing testimony bingo like ALL good little deacons should.....when it happened: One of the nicest, kindest, most loved gentlemen in the ward got up to bear his testimony. He started talking about the XXXX factory that he worked at in town.

My friend (Satan, as my mom later referred to him) leaned over and whispered " I wonder if he works at 'the factory' that we read about in the pamphlet last week." Of course we giggled like silly til snot ran out of our noses and mom gave us that, "I'll knock you into the middle of outer darkness" looks.

But, then he mentioned a few remarks that made things even worse. Like, "the factory has grown to an unbelievable size", and "his wife thinks he spends too much time at the factory"... but, we were ushered out when he mentioned the "explosion at the factory that took a week to clean up."

The day Boyd Packer came to dinner ...

02/24/2003 - by Soho Preacher

Yup, old BKP once graced my home with his presence. My mother left a roast in the oven to cook during Stake Conference, only to come home and discover that she hadn't turned the oven on! She gave us some money and told us to run out and get take-out chicken (at a local place - so old BKP wouldn't recognize it). As we were heading out the door, in came dad and BKP - hence, no more take-out. Option two was to cook up some badly freezer-burnt steaks from the basement (yum, yum).

During dinner, my mother connected with BKP by telling him about her brother (who is a friend of the big Packer). BKP turned to my father and said, in his dry humorous way, "well,[dad's name], you sure married above yourself!" My older sister, in a very serious tone (but intending humor), turned to BKP and asked sternly: "What are you saying about my father?" BKP was miffed at having his own medicine thrown back at him. He was noticeably agitated for the rest of the meal ("Just who do these mission-field kids think they are? Don't they know who I am? I'm the Packster, the Pack-man, the meat-Packer, for Joe's sake!") Of course, it could have been he was just having trouble chewing his steak!

When I think of the GAs that I had personal interaction with (being the son of a SP in the "mission field"), I can't ever recall being spiritually affected by their presence.


Boyd K. Packer is the most dangerous man in the church and I believe he is the wolf in sheep's clothing mentioned in the last days. - 02/18/2003 - anon

When my son was first diagnosed with cancer.....(lots of bitterness here) we went to Utah, to get 2nd & 3rd opinions about his condition. While attending our old ward, as luck would have it, Boid KKK Pecker was speaking. We were very much in the main stream at that time, & my son asked if he could have a blessing from one of the lard's annointed. The bishop was called, who in turn called a member of the steak prez. who supposedly relayed the message to Pecker. When the answer finally got back to my son, apologies were made that Pecker would not be giving any blessings. If he gave one to our son, every body would want one. Once a pecker, always a pecker. Long live the pissedhood!!!! - 02/18/2003 - things are bad send chocolate

Boyd K Packer was nice to me when as a wayward youth I was playing with a wiji (sp?) board and dabbling in the occult.

He gave me an sincere one on one with stories of people who had started down a similar path and ended up with a house full of objects flying around uncontrollably. I laugh about such nonesense now, but I think he really believed it.

I was duly impressed and put away my occult stuff.

Howard Hunter and his family were/are very cool despite their unfortunate affiliation. - 02/17/2003 - linchpin

When I was first married I lived in the Willowcreek area of Salt Lake and was in the same ward as Boyd K packer. I tried to avoid him even as a member. We had a ward barbeque at the house next to ours and Boyd was there. He came up with outstretched hand, a genuine smile and warmly greeted me like few church leaders ever had. He asked me how I was doing and made me feel damn good.

Goddammit Boyd, now how can I think your a putz? I have liked him ever since. LOL - Tyler - 02/17/2003

I want you people that have been very negative towards Pres. Packer to know that President Boyd K. Packer is a true disciple of Jesus Christ. The light of the Gospel shines forth from his countenance. He is an Apostle of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. I have been in his presence when he has bore his testimony of Jesus Christ. The Spirit testified to me that he is a Special Witness of Him even Jesus Christ whom I worship. President Packer is human like all of us are human. He makes mistakes like all of us make mistakes. He who is without sin let him cast the first stone. But one thing is for sure. Pres. Boyd K. Packer is a Special Witness for Him and of Him I know that. I hope the Spirit of the Lord will testify to you the truthfulness of what I have written. Let us not be divided against one another but as one. Respectfully, Your friend - 02/09/2003

Hinckley ignores Packer's funeral talk directives

01/04/2002 - by xyxy

Gordon B. Hinckley recently presided at democrat and former congressman Wayne Owens funeral and had the audacity to allow FALSE FUNERAL SPEAKING to take place. Consider the following quote from one who was in attendance:

"It was a beautiful service that contained many wonderful stories of Wayne's life, some humorous political joshing, and an outpouring of respect and love for a man who had dedicated his life to his ideals and peace on earth."

Now consider Apostle Packer's directive given at an Oct. 1996 Marriott Center indoctrination session:

"Funerals could and should be the most spiritually impressive. They are becoming informal family reunions in front of ward members. Often the Spirit is repulsed by humorous experiences or jokes when the time could be devoted to teaching the things of the Spirit, even the sacred things.

When the family insists that several family members speak in a funeral, we hear about the deceased instead of about the Atonement, the Resurrection, and the comforting promises revealed in the scriptures. Now it's all right to have a family member speak at a funeral, but if they do, their remarks should be in keeping with the spirit of the meeting.

I have told my Brethren in that day when my funeral is held, if any of them who speak talk about me, I will raise up and correct them. The gospel is to be preached. I know of no meeting where the congregation is in a better state of readiness to receive revelation and inspiration from a speaker than they are at a funeral. This privilege is being taken away from us because we don't understand the order of things--the unwritten order of things--that relates to the administration of the Church and the reception of the Spirit."

Sorry to have you read Packer's drivel but beware of this control freak...he may well be the next profit and will impact your life, True Believing Mormon or Post-Mormon!

Packer vs. Organist

12/13/2002 - anon

It has been several years since I heard this story, ans can't remember whether it was in my Brother's ward, or a friend's, but it is funny nonetheless, just consider it undocumented.

Elder Packer was visiting a ward or stake meeting where the organist was playing Bach as prelude music before services started. Boyd K. sent a note to the fine Sister informing her that playing a hymn from the music of the restoration would perhaps be more appropriate. The Sister, happy to submit to the First Law Of Heaven, began to play 'We Thank Thee O God For A Prophet" in a minor key, and with the tempo of a funeral dirge. Needless to say, Fudge K. Packer was less than thrilled. He and the Sister engaged in a mutually loving glare down until the meeting began.

Snobby General Authorities

11/25/2002 - closet gentile

Packer is mean! He truly is a grizzly bear. GRRRR!

At Nauvoo this year I met him face to face, and I was not impressed. I took a few pictures of him as he walked down the aisle to shake the hands of his "fans", and all the while he had an expression of disgust on his face. He seems to hate having his picture taken, at least by non-media personnel. I actually have a few pictures of him looking directly at me, and he is giving me a real dirty look. Yes, he normally looks grouchy but in this picture he looks homicidal! Then when he finally made his way to where I was, I extended my hand expecting him politely reciprocate. But I guess he was pissed that I had taken his picture, because all he did was sneer at me and give me an "air hand-shake". I don't know if I was the only one whose hand he didn't shake, but his arrogance left a bad taste in my mouth. I used to worship the general authorities almost like I worshiped god. Indeed I thought they were the closest things to god on this earth.

Not that I expect them to be gung-ho about shaking my hand. They shake thousands of hands, and it must get a little old. But their mannerisms are indicative of authority/prestige having gone to their heads. IMO,most GAs are snobs.


Regarding Packer and gays, please see (Winter 1997) "'What Though Our Rights Have Been Assailed?' Mormons, Politics, Same-Sex Marriage, and Cultural Abuse in Hawaii," Women's Rights Law Reporter 18(2): 129. - 11/15/2002 submitted by anonymous

Dearest Packer

11/14/2002 - anon

Dearest Packer,
As a recent "potential convert" I was told that the three questions I would be asked before I could be baptised are:
1. Have I ever been convicted of a felony or am I on probation.
2. Have a ever participated in a homosexual act.
3. Have I ever participated in an abortion.

The nerve of you people! While "not quilty" of any of the three "offences" listed above, so much for your theory of forgivenes. What about lying? Hatred? Predjudice? Distorting the truth about who and what you believe in order to "protect" the church's members? In a few short weeks I have learned so much about the LDS Church that I could vomit. Funny how my nightmares about never being good enough started up shortly after the first missionaries came to my door. I know a few wonderful LDS people. You are one of the biggest assholes I have ever read about. Take your church and shove it. I could write on and on, but have to stop because I am so pissed at myself for even considering joining your institution that I can't even think straight. I love people, I love God and all I can see is condemnation from church hiearchy.

Think I'll go have a cup of coffee and try and calm down. Oops! I blew the "word of wisdom.

He was a cold fish

11/06/2002 - anon

I was staying at his sister's house for a few days and he came by for a short visit. They had to show off the French convert (Who was me and I just happened to be wearing cut-offs when I walked downstairs not realizing what was going on). He was NOT impressed!!! He seemed cold and distant and didn't strike me at all as a nice person. His sister, nieces and nephews were wonderfully nice to me, but he was a cold fish.

Packer Was In My Ward

11/05/2002 - anon

Me and my wife newly married, quickly found out that Boyd K Packer was in our ward. At first excitement ran through me, thinking wow, how could I be so blessed.

Packers kids held high positions in the ward and stake, and I really liked Packers son in law and his family alot. However when packer was in the ward, he never was down in the congregation talking to the people before Sacrament. He was always up on his perch looking down. In fact I noticed when his grandkids were up close to him for the sacrament. It was not like a real loving grandfather & grandkid kind of love. It was almost like the kid was just like one of us shaking his hand.

Thinking back on these moments I never felt the spirit any stronger when he was present. It was a nice ward, however the feeling of church authority was present, and didn't feel that great.

My observation of Packer and Ballard - Today on United Airlines

10/21/2002 - Flew the Coop

I fly quite often in my work and today while sitting at the Gate waiting to board my flight, I noticed 4 gentleman in fine black suites approach the gate and walk right through and onto the plane a full 10 or 15 minutes before the business and premier class boarded. I didn't pay much attention other than thinking that it must be some kind of inspection by Airline or Government security management types (because of their suites).

A few minutes later I noticed that only two exited off the airplane, and they seemed to be Airline Management because they were chit-chating with the gate personnel. When I boarded the plane well lo and behold, there were Packard and Ballard seated in the business class with their black suites and ties. They just kept their heads down and were content to whisper to each other and unwilling to make eye contact with other boarding passengers. When I got off the airplane, there were more airline management dressed in their suites with one of those airport golf carts waiting to pick up their distinguished customers. I understand the motivation of United to treat them like kings because they have the keys to a lot of money that the Church spends on travel. However,I have a hard time understanding why men who claim to be the humble prophets of God and Christ would accept to be treated like Kings. You would think they would want to act more like a common person, and mingle a little bit. Even more annoying was the buzz of Mormons talking in the plane about riding in the same airplane as these two high-ranking Church leaders.

Forbidding, Dard, and Dark

07/26/2002 - anon

I was born and raised in the same town as Boyd K. Packer, Brigham City, Utah. After my marriage, my husband and I moved to California. Elder Packer was the GA visitor to our stake conference in around 1984. I had just been divorced, and was at the conference by myself. I was at a low point in my life and felt that if I could shake hands with Elder Packer after the meeting and mention that I was from Brigham City, I could receive comfort, warmth and strength just from being in his presence and having him share a moment with me. As soon as the conference was over, I started making my way to the front of the chapel. I looked up and saw Elder Packer standing on the dais, looking out over the audience. The look on his face was so forbidding, hard, and dark, like a thunder cloud, I thought, that I turned around and left the building as fast as I could. That was the first inkling I had of the kind of person he is.

Thanks for the forum.

A Time to Convert the Mourners

10/03/2001 - Pt Loma of the bulletin board

Taken from Boyd K. Packer, “Funerals—A Time for Reverence,” Ensign, Nov. 1988

Many attend funerals who do not come to church regularly. They come subdued in spirit and are teachable. How sad when an opportunity for conversion is lost because a funeral is less than it might have been.

Funerals held under the direction of the priesthood are Church meetings. They have been likened to sacrament meetings. I quote from a priesthood bulletin:

“It is requested that henceforth all funerals conducted under the auspices of the officials of the Church follow the general format of the sacrament meeting with respect to music, speaking, and prayers. Music should be used at the beginning of the service prior to the opening prayer and possibly after the invocation also, as in our Sunday meetings. The closing portion of the funeral likewise should follow our customary pattern of having a final musical number immediately before the concluding prayer. Where feasible, a choir could very well be used on the musical program.

“With respect to speaking, it should be kept in mind that funeral services provide an excellent opportunity for teaching the basic doctrines … in a positive manner. …

“Following these suggestions will help to keep our services in line with our established pattern and will avoid practices now so commonly followed elsewhere.” Priesthood Bulletin, Apr. 1972.)

To The One - Ain't No Fun

07/24/2001 - courtesy of Bit Twiddler

This letter came through another LDS list, but with approval to re-mail it. I believe it to be authentic. It represents a voice crying in the wilderness, but a voice that is getting stronger every day. This letter is dated October 7, 1999, so it may have been around the list before.

[Statement from original poster:]The following letter came into my hands with the understanding that once here, I would make it known to friends along the internet. You are welcome to do with it as you wish with this qualification. Do not change a word in this good brother's letter. My warmest love and admiration go out to him, his wife, and their family. Don't ask me where I got it because I will never tell you. But know that I; trust my source and have all confidence that it is real, and was sent to the Church with the response that it was simply another angry letter and General Authorities don't respond to angry letters.


David Eccles Hardy
October 7, 1999

Elder Boyd K.Packer
President of the Council of the Twelve
47 East South Temple
Salt Lake City, Utah 84150

Dear Elder Packer:
Although we have met briefly before, it is through the context of my family that you would be able to place me. I am the younger brother of Ralph W. Hardy, Jr. and Clare Hardy Johnson, and the son of Ralph W. Hardy, Sr. and Maren Eccles Hardy. I most recently served as bishop of the Salt Lake University 29th Ward, Salt Lake University 5th Stake. My wife, Carlie, is the granddaughter of the late Elder Franklin D. Richards, and the great-granddaughter of President Heber J. Grant. I provide the context of our families and
> heritage for no purpose other than establishing the solid upbringing in the Gospel and the Church that my wife and I have both had.

If you know the devotion to the Church of my brother Ralph and my late sister Clare, you know mine. I write this letter out of the realization that to maintain my own personal integrity, I need to inform you of the personal heartache and damage you have to some degree been responsible for visiting upon my immediate family as the author of "To the One".

Although originally delivered by you as an address in 1978, the pamphlet "To The One" remains to this day the Church's most current and definitive written statement by a General Authority on the issue of homosexuality. It is available to the general Church membership and the public, and my wife and I have been referred to it numerous times as we have come to grips with this issue over the past few years.

As one who has always been mindful of my Temple covenants, an unwavering believer, and a follower of my Priesthood leaders, this is not an easy letter to write. For me it represents an anguished "Crossing of the Rubicon." I hope you will take the time to read it, for in it I have invested my very soul.

Early on a Saturday morning six weeks ago, I watched as our car pulled away with my wife driving our eldest son to a new city, a new community, and a new school to complete his senior year of high school. Ever since that morning, I have grown progressively angrier that to protect our son's life and sense of self worth, we are compelled to send him away from our home and family.

You see, this community of "Saints" we live in is so steeped in ignorance, fear, loathing, judgment and qualified "love" towards our son and those who like him face the challenge of homosexuality, he twice arrived the point where he was devoid of hope and felt he had no alternative but to take his own life. Fortunately, he did not succeed. My son is not manic-depressive, nor was he ever before suicidal. He simply understands too well the Gospel and believed what his Seminary teachers and Priesthood leaders taught him about homosexuality, based upon the doctrine set forth in To The One.

My wife and I are the parents of six children - two daughters and four sons - ranging in age from twenty-three to eight. Our oldest son at age thirteen had the courage to come to us with his growing fear that he had no attraction whatsoever to girls - the thought in fact disgusted him - but that he was very attracted to those of his same sex. That he would come to us without fear or shame, confide in us, and seek our counsel attests to the strong relationship my wife and I have both always had with our son. (This is ironic in light of the "parental causation" theories routinely hauled-out by the Church's LDS Social Services counselors and Evergreen as the primary cause of homosexuality.)

This son was always spiritually mature for his age. He is the finest young man I have ever known - giving, loving, supportive, honest, reliable. Most definitely unselfish. A leader among his peers in his school and primary classes and in his Priesthood quorums.

Since he was old enough to talk and walk, we were very much aware of certain differences that concerned us. He carried himself differently, walking and running. When we could get him to pick up a ball, he threw it differently. He spoke differently. He was not in the least interested in sports (in spite of countless practices and Saturdays we spent supporting him in sporting events that utterly disinterested him). He loved dolls and playing house. He loved music, literature, drama and poetry. He made friends easily with girls, but very rarely with boys.

Carlie and I listened with hope to LDS counselors and leaders who dismissed or downplayed all of this as merely a "phase." We believed in and relied on them.

The years passed, but the "phase" didn't - this in spite of our doing everything recommended to us by LDS counselors, Priesthood leaders and, of course, the teachings of the General Authorities such as you (scarce as they are is on this subject).

While we were assured by LDS counselors that this was little more than a correctable Pavlovian response and that "nothing could be easier to cure," and took hope in your confident statement in "To The One": "When we understand fundamental moral law better than we do, we will be able to correct this condition routinely. . . ," matters went from bad to worse.

One evening in 1997, while I was out of town and my wife was being assured by our well-meaning Stake President at his office that "if we just keep it quiet - the same as if someone in your family had committed adultery [our son had done nothing]- it will all be just fine, trust me . . . ," our son slit his wrists in his room at home. Earlier in the day, it had been the "Sodom and Gomorrah" lesson in Seminary.

As bishop of a student Ward at the University of Utah working with homosexual returned missionaries, I came to the painful realization that the "reparative therapy" practiced by LDS Social Services and organizations such as Evergreen (whose board of directors I then served on) was not merely ineffective, it was terribly damaging.

In every instance I found that this "therapy" accomplished little more than driving these earnest brothers and sisters, desperate to believe that they would "change," deeper into self-loathing and despondency. Their failure to "change" as promised them by you and other Priesthood leaders - a failure ultimately arrived at by each and every one of these young men and women who were honest with his or her situation - left only three realistic alternatives:
> (1) practice deceit as long as possible to remain in good standing
> with Church and family,
> (2) give up completely, abandon Church and family, and turn to the
> only community that will accept you - the gay community, or
> (3) commit suicide.

By your own admission, it is obvious that neither you nor the Church as a whole has yet arrived at "a better understanding of the fundamental moral law,"because your understanding of it is leading and guiding the Church in this matter, and this "condition" is anything but "routinely corrected."

In "To The One" you make the summary statement that "some forms of these treatments [reparative therapy] are of substantial help in about 25 percent of the cases" without offering any authority for this statistic. Where did this amazing (though still disheartening) statistic come from? Undoubtedly it came from the experts at LDS Social Services.

Unfortunately, however, LDS Social Services must not follow-up on their patients over any extended period of time. My experience as bishop of a student Ward, the father of a homosexual son, and a friend and confidant to the many LDS homosexuals I have since become acquainted with, would indicate to me that in some few cases, the terrible guilt associated with reparative therapy and the strong desire to remain in good standing with the Church and one's family has brought about an ability to repress one's homosexual desires - for a season. Usually just long enough to get married and ruin a family.

Perhaps this is the 25% you spoke of. The current publication for ecclesiastical leaders "Understanding and Helping Those Who Have Homosexual Problems" seems to recognize the realistic lack of curability in its statement: "Marriage should not viewed as a way to resolve homosexual problems. The lives of others should not be damaged by entering a marriage where such concerns exist. Encouraging members to cultivate heterosexual feelings as a way to resolve homosexual problems generally leads them to frustration and discouragement."

However, the Church's confusion and struggle to make sense of this issue, and its tendency to downplay the lack of any real answers with a summary "and they all lived happily ever after" is apparent in the publication's utterly conflicting closing sentence: "In some cases, heterosexual feelings emerge leading to happy, eternal marriage relationships." Which is a Bishop or Stake President to do? Discourage cultivation of heterosexual feelings and marriage, or lend encouragement to and sign the Temple marriage recommend for the "cured" homosexual that is entering a happy, eternal marriage relationship?

While I know from experience that much is left to the discretion and inspiration of the ecclesiastical leader, I also know that they are to look to an official publication specifically directed to them such as this for direction and guidance and give it much weight.

But what is the counsel being given in this publication? Isn't it a bit confusing? At the crux of the issue of homosexuality and the Church are the three great interrelated beliefs:

(1) there is an element of choice involved in becoming and remaining homosexual

(2) it can be cured, and (3) our children and youth can be recruited or enticed into homosexuality.

Every time we have sought out help for our son and family on this issue from Priesthood leaders or General Authorities we have been summarily referred to the experts at LDS Social Services. Because the lives and well-being of so many trusting individuals and family members are at stake here, it would; seem that much stock is put in the expertise of LDS Social Services in this matter.

Isn't it fairly obvious, though, that the "experts" you rely on at LDS Social Services to professionally corroborate and support the doctrine and policy of the Church would support whatever position you have mandated to be the only correct one? Such is the level of respect for and faith in the office you hold.

In all honesty, to disagree with a member of the Twelve on a matter of doctrine is tantamount to heresy. I'm sure you are aware that the American Psychiatric Association has denounced "reparative therapy" for treating homosexuals as both ineffective and damaging.

I find it ironic that when a fundamentalist religious group shuns sound medical intervention as a doctrine we find it appalling and backwards - yet when that same sound medical advice denounces the practice of "reparative therapy" we call it "worldly" false doctrine. I guess it all depends on just whose ox is being gored.

In "To The One" you preach that homosexuality is not innate, but is a curable condition. Your fundamental proof: God wouldn't make a mistake like this. By preaching this, you set the impossible goal of "cure" as the standard to which my son must hold himself responsible, as must his family and all other Church members. Until he chooses to do what he must to be "cured," he hasn't done enough. He will never have done enough. He will always come up failing in the most fundamental aspect of his entire existence as a child of his Heavenly Father. He is a pervert, an aberration, and an abomination. There is nothing left in this life or the next.

How would you deal with this if you were him? Homosexuality is not a "condition" that can be "cured." My proof: I have yet to meet even one venerable grandfather with a fine posterity (or anyone else for that matter) who says he was once homosexual but was long ago cured - and my experience as a father observing my son from birth.

Perhaps the most hurtful aspect of "To The One" is your revelation that the fundamental reason why my son has not been "cured" is because of his selfishness. When I inform other people that this is actually what you preach in "To The One", they are incredulous (members included).

They respond "Obviously you have misread or misconstrued what Elder Packer said."

You are well aware that this is precisely what is said. As one who knows my son and his heart better than you, your doctrine that my son's selfishness is at the core of his ability or inability to be cured of his homosexuality is offensive in the extreme, and evidences the lack of any meaningful inquiry into this issue beyond the application of pure dogma.

In saying this it is not my intent to offend you. It is, simply, incredible that you could hit upon anything quite so insensitive and ignorant of the facts. Indeed, my son is the most unselfish and Christ-like person I know. This holds true for most of the LDS homosexuals I know well. They have to be to keep trying.

Your doctrine of "choice" and "curability" is also at the core of why the Church and its members in reality view my son and those like him as latter-day lepers. If homosexuality (1) is not inborn, (2) has an element of choice, and (3) can be cured - then it must be able to be taught or suggested. Others must also be susceptible to being enticed or recruited. Our children are capable of being infected by these people and not becoming mothers and fathers. It is, therefore, a frontal assault on the family. The "hate the sin but love the sinner" platitude cannot disguise the fact that in reality the members of the Church are taught to loathe and fear our son and those like him.

This qualified and synthetic "love" is nothing more than the few alms hurriedly and begrudgingly parted with to salve the Christian conscience, while never once entertaining the idea of actually descending into the leper pit.

We would never expose our children to this for it might infect them. If sexual orientation is a matter of choice, when exactly did you choose to be heterosexual? When and how often did you reaffirm your choice to stay that way? Why aren't my other children, who idolize their brother, even the slightest bit interested in adopting a homosexual "lifestyle" or in homosexual experimentation? Why would anyone choose to be an abomination and an outcast? It defies reason.

Last week a dear friend (formerly a bishop) reassured us that he still loved our son "even if he has made a choice to be this way." My son did not choose to be this way. This type of "love" born of duty and pity for his abominable choice acts like a slow but virulent cancer on our son's self-esteem.

It is for this reason we have found it necessary to send our son away from the community of the "Saints." As the Church "progresses" on this issue, what we are hearing more and more from Priesthood leaders today is the idea that our son is acceptable so long as he practices life-long chastity. That is, of course, actually called celibacy, and while it's a convenient idea to advance, in practice it is virtually impossible to live.

The distinction between chastity and celibacy seems always to be overlooked by Church leaders. You may recall that in his somewhat recent newspaper interview in California, President Hinkley compared the plight of homosexuals to that of the single sisters in the Church. To paraphrase, he said that the Church doesn't ask homosexuals to do anything it doesn't also ask of its other single adult members - to live chaste lives.

But this simply isn't true. As a former bishop I have firsthand experience. We openly love and support our single brothers and sisters. We give them important callings especially with our youth and children. We urge them to date, to flirt, to get crushes, to fall in love, to marry. We sponsor Ward and Stake activities and dances to get them together to accomplish this. We ask them to be chaste - until they find someone to share their life and intimacy with.

We go out of our way to give them something of immeasurable value in the struggle to keep the law of chastity - hope - hope that no matter how difficult this emotional and physical loneliness is, it is temporary. For those with the least control over their situation, our single sisters, we give special encouragement and hope that they will find love, emotional intimacy and fulfillment in this life - and if not, certainly in the next.

We do not knowingly give homosexuals important callings - especially not with our youth or children who would be at risk of being infected and recruited. We forbid them ever to flirt, to date, to get crushes, to fall in love, to have a legally-recognized monogamous relationship.

The image of a Tri-Stake Gay and Lesbian Gold-and-Green Ball is amusing. We ask them to be chaste - forever. No hope at all. The question of sexual intimacy aside - can you imagine having being denied the ability to become attracted to, flirt with, get a crush on, hold hands with, steal a kiss from, or fall in love with your wife? With all trace of romantic love and emotional intimacy denied you, with what would you fill the void to hold at bay a life of loneliness, emptiness, and despair?

We do have at least one historic example to look to. The Catholic Church has attempted to enforce celibacy on its clergy throughout the ages with success at some level (although we will never know what level). With what did they replace the emotional void? They had the love and adulation of the church membership, and authority and power. They were, in fact, the Bishops, Stake Presidents, and General Authorities.

They were held next to deity - and their record is less than stellar. Imagine the celibacy success rate of a group defined by a loathsome and abominable "condition." Imagine also, for a moment, if you were to stand up in front of the freshman class at BYU and announce that everyone present was being given a special calling to live a celibate life from then on. How many do you think would really be able to do it? How many empty and guilty lives and suicides would result? The Church has never taught the principle of celibacy.

As a parent, I don't have the slightest idea how to begin teaching it. There are no manuals, no courses, no "For the Strength of Celibate Youth" cards to carry. There are no Priesthood, Relief Society, Sunday School, or Primary lessons on celibacy. On the other hand, following the teachings of the Church, we have raised our children in a home filled with open love, intimacy, loyalty and commitment between a couple. Our children know Carlie and I adore each other, and they want and need the same thing in their lives.

I never thought I would say this, but as a father given the choice between (a) my son's suicide,(b) his complete abandonment of the Church and embracing of the extreme gay culture with its emotionally debilitating and physically dangerous practice of anonymous casual sex, or (c) living in a committed, monogamous relationship for the rest of his life practicing the gospel virtues of love, commitment, and fidelity we have taught in our home, I would
> have to pick the latter.

The Church, however, is now doing all in its power to prevent that. Presumably, it has a better alternative - one that works on something other than a dogmatic and theoretical level. Then again, perhaps my son is simply a casualty of war - acceptable "collateral damage" in an eternal plan and struggle in which by the luck of the draw he has no relevance or place.

The Gospel has always been easy to have faith in and follow because it made real sense and worked in our lives. This would make no sense. And the current doctrine, as set forth in "To The One" is not working for our family.

I can't tell you how strange and difficult this is. It's like we woke up one morning on a different planet. In our greatest time of need as a family, the Church has failed us and abandoned us - and through the convenient but hurtful doctrine of parental causation, complicity and guilt it directly promotes (evidence the article in September's 1999 Ensign), it kicks us while we are down!

I know this is only one of many issues that the Brethren deal with, and certainly not at the top of their list, but for us it has become our universe. We live in this issue twenty-four hours a day, seven days a weelk, and must raise our children through it by our best lights. And there are many more like us in the Church. Parents like us are ultimately forced to make a hopeless decision: abandon our homosexual children, or turn from the Church.

"Not so," you say. You would never know unless you walked in our shoes. My brother, Ralph, asked me at one point "What would you have the General Authorities do about this issue?" I wish that someone in authority would have the compassion and the courage simply to own up publicly to the fact that this is a difficult issue about which we just don't have many answers. I wish someone in authority would publicly urge the members to withhold their judgment and condemnation, accept those like my son into their midst, and have true compassion and love for those who through no choice of their own will deal with the issue of homosexuality all of their lives.

I wish someone in authority would publicly assure the members that by withholding their judgment and condemnation and showing acceptance and real love, they won't get leprosy, nor will their children be at risk - that the divine concept of Family will not be compromised or weakened, but that real families with real issues will in fact be strengthened.

I wish that someone in authority would recognize that "To The One" was an effort twenty years ago by a very good man to address a difficult issue in the context of the time in which it was written, and pull it from circulation.

Elder Packer, I have never been one to question, demand, or "kick against the pricks." I am a follower, a believer, an obeyer. But I can no longer wait patiently while the Brethren try to figure this issue out at the cost of my son's life, and the lives of others like him.


David Eccles Hardy

Passive-Aggressive Packer

06/20/2001 - Sheriff Taylor of the bulletin board

I used to waste a lot of time and energy trying to make sense out of things Mr. Packer said. Then I came to realize some of the things he said did not make sense to me, were not spiritually uplifting for me, sounded manipulative to me. I had to face the fact that Boyd K. Packer was not my spiritual leader, and that he and the church he represented did not have what I was looking for. That is essentially why I left: the Mormon church was not meeting my needs. In fact, it only seemed to be exacerbating my struggles in life. Not only have I felt hurt and abandoned, I feel anger in relation to the way Mr. Packer communicates.

I think Mr. Packer has mastered the art of passive-aggressive communication; communicating in such a way that the meaning is not completely clear, but which implies, "You better do as I want you to do, or Heavenly Father will be displeased with you." I don't know about the rest of you, but I can interpret this statement (the one quoted at the top of this thread) in ways that are controlling, anti-human, even sinister.

I feel emotionally hurt reading this statement. I think Mr. Packer is abandoning both the sisters and the brothers when he says things like this.

10/12/2000 - Boyd K Packer - General Conference - April 1998

You sisters may be surprised to learn that the needs of men are seldom, if ever, discussed in priesthood quorums. Certainly they are not preoccupied with them. They discuss the gospel and the priesthood and the family!

If you follow that pattern, you will not be preoccupied with the so-called needs of women. As you give first priority to your family and serve your organization, every need shall be fulfilled, every neglect will be erased, every abuse will be corrected, now or in the eternities.

There are many community causes worthy of your support. There are others which are flawed, for they erode those values essential to a happy family. Do not allow yourselves to be organized under another banner which cannot, in truth, fulfill your needs. Do not drift from the course established by the general presidency of the Relief Society. Their stated purpose is to help bring women and families to Christ.

LDS Mormon housewife.

10/10/2000 - Mormon News

Group of Mormon Women Complain in Boston Globe

BOSTON, MASSACHUSETTS -- A group of Mormon women have published a declaration on the status of women in the LDS Church in response to a recent interview of LDS Church President Gordon B. Hinckley in the Boston Globe. The document [Available on the web at: Mormon Feminists, which appeared in the Globe on Saturday, October 7th, says that Mormon women are complaining and that they don't have a voice in LDS Church governance.

The Boston Globe quoted Hinckley in the interview, published September 2nd, saying "Insofar as I can see, no. The women have their place...they have a voice in determining policy and doing many things in the church. I haven't found any complaint among our women. I'm sure there are a few, a handful somewhere who may be disaffected for one reason or another, but I've never seen any evidence of it."

The group of women take issue with that statement, saying, "We write to correct a misconception repeatedly set forth by LDS Church leaders in the media: We Mormon women are not content, we do have complaints." They say that their complaints are because they don't have a voice, "whenever women disagree with male leaders, we are often ignored or dismissed, marginalized or ostracized."

The group also acknowledge that their statements put them in danger of excommunication, "Mormon women are in a bind. If we disagree we reap trouble; if we relent we lose our voice. These are our choices: to conform, or risk church discipline, or leave." But for most, leaving isn't an option, "Mormonism is more than a religion, it is our cultural heritage. To leave Mormonism is to leave our culture, our ethnicity, our life, our family, our inheritance."

Mormon Women Must Be Heard
Boston Globe pgA19 7Oct00 N1
By Courtney Black and Maxine Hanks

LDS fireside Boyd K Packer on The Little Factory.

A view from the pulpit down to a Young Woman and a Young Man listening to Boyd K Packer's speech about "The Little Factory."

09/19/2000 - Baruk Ale
Loren C. Dunn was a civilian assistant to my mission president Boyd K. Packer in New England in 1965. BKP must have really liked him because after packer got to be a G.A. LCD was made a G.A. himself.

09/19/2000 - anon
I met the man once in a funeral home. Rather than wait in line he arrogantly pushed his way forward, demanding to be taken to the head of the line...because as he put it he was “pressed for time”.

Looks like a supposed servant of the Lord would use better judgement.

On second thought, it answered the "servant of the Lord" question for me.

09/12/2000 - James F
I experienced him twice. Once at a church conference at Berlin (7-8 years ago). I friend (still a TBM) had a short interview with him. He had written Packer a letter before (can't remember the subject), was told by the stake-president that Packer would want to see him. My friend was depressed afterwards. I remember his words very well: "His eyes were cold, so was his hand: Dead and cold as a fish." (His perception, but I understand that too).

I had "dinner" with Packer on one occassion. This was during my mission, more than 20 years ago. England-Leeds Mission. Packer was visiting the Mission and attending a mission-conference and was at the mission home, Rossett Green, Harrogate, Yorkshire. Putting it short: These were pretty much my TBM days, even then I simply disliked him. To me one of the most arrogant people I ever met. Example: After dinner he lectures the mission-president Roberts (a New Zealander) that he had seen many "kids" during the mission-conference the day before. He ment some of the Elders. Those that didn't comb their hair backwards as "men" do. No kidding. President was to teach them to be and act like men. President didn't. Or I wasn't aware of it.

BKP in Cairo, Egypt

05/26/2001 - Gracie of the recovery bulletin board

I used to live in Cairo. BKP came over all of a sudden one evening and we were all called to let us know he'd be speaking at our villa (where we held church). My husband and I went just out of curiosity. We were pretty semi-active at the time.

He blathered on and on about how we'd all much rather be living back on the Wasatch Front, which always pissed me off because it was true. Those morons had the opportunity of a lifetime being stationed in Egypt for a couple of years and all they did was bitch about how hard it was to live there. And most of them had commissary privileges, which we did not!

The mood at the meeting was like we were all seeing God Himself. At the end he made us stay standing at our places while His Holiness made the rounds and shook everyone's hand. No one was allowed to speak. He was then whisked away like the President. I couldn't figure out the rush. There were no other Mormon congregations in the whole country. I really really can't stand that guy. I kept wishing I could think of something pithy to say to him, but all I could manage was a sullen glare.

Growing Up In BKP's Stake

05/25/2001 - Roger L
Packer lives in the stake I grew up in, Cottonwood Creek Stake in Sandy. He is as big an ass in person as he is over the pulpit.

Knocking on Boyd's Door

05/26/2001 - Heavenly Fodder of the recovery bulletin board
One of my mish comps lived in the stake where most of the Apostles live and he gave me the addresses to several of their homes. I made it a point to solicit their homes (while working my summer sales job) so I could see these guys face to face.

I knocked on BKPacker's door first. He lived at the end of a shaded private drive in Sandy. A river graced his yard. He had large watch dogs and lots of ducks, geese, and peacocks running around on his property. He was cruising around on a golf cart in his backyard. I was able to acquire his phone number from his nephew at the front door (a skill I acquired on my mission). Later, when I called, his wife said that he was performing a "sealing" in the temple. I called again, and his wife told me that she had asked BKPacker if he wanted our services (home pest control service) and he declined. My mormon salesmen companions and I joked that the Apostles simply bless their homes and the bugs stay away.

Bicker Bicker Bicker Makes The Prophet Sicker

by anonymous - 08/09/2000

A friend of mine has a mole that works in the church office building and squeals from time to time. Apparently, when Howard Hunter was president, he was having a difficult time with Boyd K. because Packer would never do what he was told. Packer sat on the Board for BYU at the time. The board would make a decision that wasn't what Darth Packer wanted to do. The board would end the meeting and Packer would call up the school the next day and tell them to forget what the board said and told them to do his bidding. Packer and Hunter did not like each other. It got to the point that Hunter had a few of his brethren buddies give him a special blessing because he couldn't stand Boyd. (does anyone blame him?) When Gordon B. became president Boyd was taken off the board at BYU.

BYU Reacts To Boyd

11/22/1999 - Don, a former BYU professor in the early 1990's

Also, while still on the faculty, it was mentioned by many that there is no General Authority who had so much infuriated the faculty as Boyd did. And, this from True Believing Mormons. In addition, some die-hard Mormons said, "It is no longer fun to be at BYU" compared to the many years when control was not the norm, but it was just accepted that it was ok to do whatever you wanted.

Darth Packer in the COB

09/26/1999 - anon

Once again, a third party story which I believe. This was related to me by a fellow worker. Her husband used to be employed at the Church Office building. The employees there refer to Boyd K Packer as Darth Vader. I think that this shows how lovable he is.

Met BKP On My Mission

09/20/1999 - Sweden

I did meet BKP once. He spoke at a fireside in Paris while I was a missionary there. I actually liked what he said, mainly because it refuted my racist Mission President. At our previous zone conference, the MP (now a member of the AZ Supreme Court) had to us to emphasis French families, since he thought that we were baptizing too many African families. He had also privately told several missionaries that the French members were grumbling about all the Africans that were coming to church. BKP said that we were "preparing the way for the Church's entrance into Africa." I was secretly pleased that he had put my racist MP in his place.

I have read some of BKP's other talks, and been shocked how nasty he is to those children of a lesser god, namely gays, women and anyone with enough intelligence to question his BS.

Packer Comes Unglued

09/20/1999 - Steve

So we had our confrence and I was really unimpressed with Elder Packer's speech. It was pretty much the same as all other speeches I had heard from the uppers in the church. But then the confrence was opened to allow the Elders to ask questions from the Apostle. There was an Elder who asked "why Christ had to suffer so much for our sins." I knew where this Elder was going. Everyone on my mission was studying Cleon Sckousen and almost every Elder had a tape recorded copy of one of his speeches where he was talking about the intelligences of every atom that demanded justice... yada yada....

Packer didn't know what the Elder was asking (now what happened to that power of discernment?) So BKKKP awnsered him in some generic way and left it at that. Well this Elder wasn't going to be pushed aside so easily. So he asked it again with alittle more emphasis. BKKKP became unglued and beligerant he started bitching us out about how we were just a bunch of kids and how we had no clue what was really going on and that if we did not repent that we would all come short of reaching exaltation.

Wrong response for me. I went to the confrence with serious adult based questions and problems with the chruch and this man that talks to God treated me and the whole congregation as if we were a bunch of school kids that had gotten out of line. I guess it was his arrogance and self rightouseness that offended me. I really believed that a man that talked to Jesus would be much more in control of his own temper and that he would be much more humble than the way he scolded us. His condesension was what I got when I had come to be up lifted. It did not sit well with me. It was obvious that he was just a man and that the young Elder had rattled him.

I could have personally met him but at that point I just wanted to get back to my apartment and forget about the whole thing.

Maybe he does believe that he is doing the right thing. It really doesn't matter I don't want to follow a "Brethren" like that. I don't want to be that type of man. If I rot in hell because of it so be it.

Packer vs. Evolution

07/15/1999 - James

Boyd Packer remarked the following during General Conference,October 6, 1984 (Source: Ensign, Nov. 1984, p. 67, from his speech: The Pattern of our Parentage, p. 66-69):

"Surely no one with reverence for God could believe that His children evolved from slime or from reptiles. (Although one can easily imagine that those who accept the theory of evolution don't show much enthusiasm for genealogical research!) The theory of evolution, and it is a theory, will have an entirely different dimension when the workings of God in creation are fully revealed" (brackets in the orig.)

I remember very clearly reading the Ensign on a Saturday morning when my phone rang. A close friend had just read it the same morning (Inspiration,the church must be true!). We discussed the subject. Background: He has just finished his degree in micro-biology. We discussed all church topics freely, also the question of creation/evolution etc. He brought in the biological facts, as was the "responsible" for the historical and scriptural field. We were pretty much of the same opinion at that time.

We both had the same feelings: What the hell was Packer talking about? Has he, the church, had a revelation and knows more? Is he insulting "evolutionists"? What does the whole thing have to do with doing genealogical research?

Only one way to find out. Write and ask Packer himself. My friend drafted a letter in his name, read it out to me, I made some suggestions. We made a few minor corrections, the letter went off to SLC! Here's the letter (I've deleted his name, since he's still LDS, and I don't want him to get into trouble):

Dear Elder Packer,

I realize that General Authorities are very busy and that we are asked to direct our questions to local and stake leaders. Please allow me, however, to comment on one of the statements you made in your talk at the last General Conference. I do not seek to critisize (sic!), nor to "snap at your heels" as Elder McConkie would put it, but merely to voice my opinion. In your talk you said, "Surely no one with reverence for God could believe that His children evolved from slime or from reptiles. Although one can easily imagine that those who accept the theory of evolution don't show much enthusiasm for genealogical research!"

In your talk you seem to exclude evolution as a possible source of our origin. I realize that the theory of evolution is often used to explain the world in atheistic terms, and that as members of the Church we must point out that we are not the product of purely chance-directed evolution, but basically the concept of evolution is neither theistic nor atheistic. So why be concerned about how we were created. I feel that it is more important to know that we were created.

You also seem to link ones reverence for God with ones opinion concerning evolution. I feel reverence for God and for all of his creation. As one learns about the intricacies of life one can only feel this way. A simple bacteria is far more complicated than anything that man has ever build. If I could trace my genealogy to a simple protoplasm I would marvel and be filled by awe, but it would not affect my reverence for God. We are his creation and no matter how he did it, He did a great job. After all, even the Bible states that we were made of the dust of the earth. That doesn't sound better or worse than slime to me.

I, too, am looking forward to the day when God will reveal how life on earth came to be. I assume that even the knowledge of the most learned is so limited that we are all in for quite a surprise. Thank you for taking the time to read my letter.

Sincerely, XXXXX

The answer arrived soon:


The Council of the Twelve

47 East South Temple Street, Salt Lake City, Utah 8415O

25 January 1985

Dear Brother xxxxxx:

Thank you for your letter. I appreciate your comments. Inasmuch as this matter has been debated so long over the years, I am sure we will be not be able to resolve it in personal correspondence.

I do thank you for writing and hope that you would grant me the privilege of expressing my views as others are free to express theirs. I thought that not out of order as there is so much taught on television and in the classroom about the origin of man, and that is the central issue in my mind.

Thank you again for writing.

Sincerely, Boyd K. Packer BKP/jm"

I carried a copy of both letters with me in my scriptures during the following years. Whenever evolution was a subject in classes, discussions etc., but also "Elder bla bla said" statements were made in my home ward, I just pulled it out an quoted. Very effective. I became notorious after a few years. It made 100%ters (Iron-rodders) shut up. Once I'd left it at home, by coincidence a fitting situation occurred I tried an experiment: I pulled a different envelope (the copy was always in a light blue envelope) out of my suit-case and waved it. It was actually empty! It worked!!! By the authority of my empty envelope the teacher reworded himself! Incredible! Twice I did the thing during sacrament-meetings, when I didn't agree with a statement I pulled my envelope, once empty again! It worked. One speaker got so muddled up because of my "intervention" he lost his thread! Church was fun sometimes!

True Men Be Like Boyd

05/07/1999 - Jim

We had a mission-conference with Packer. I expected the "deeper" doctrines of the kingdom- I was in for a surprise! One lecture was on the subject of being a great missionary, preparing to be "true men". The sisters back home would expect "true men" when we return from our missions. He then explained how we could find our "sweetheart". He reminded us that this would be the women we would wake up with till the end of our life. We ought to find out if we wanted to wake up besides that face for the rest of our life! No mention that it works vice versa! We could check it out on going camping with a group overnight, get to see the ladies real early in the morning before their morning rituals (my wording). I just couldn't believe this macho crap.

He wasn't done with his "true men" rubbish yet. In the evening we had a "fire-side" (Packer and the office-staff). During that hour Packer started on the subject that it was the Mission President's job to make "men" out of us. He explained that some Elders didn't look like men, rather like kids. I had on my mind that even more behave like them! He then stated that it starts with the way how we have our haircuts and comb ourselves. Men comb their hair backwards! (quote!).

Inside A Boyd Brain - Understanding Packer

09/292001 - by cricket

Boyd K Packer is a fascinating case study in human psychology. Please join me in a guided tour of his psyche. Appreciation is expressed to rpcman’s web site for posting Elder Packer’s May 18, 1992 speech to “The All-Church Coordinating Council” , which provides the backbone of this case study.

Mr. Packer sleeps well at night having found the peace and security afforded by the structure and guidance found in “the one and only true” belief system in the entire universe.

Under the guise of humility and humble servitude to a much higher cause, Mr. Packer has assumed “point man” status in the priesthood posse patrol of human behavior for the entire planet and afterlife. Mr. Packer’s posse is composed of a “dirty dozen” deputies dedicated to riding directly off into the sunset of blind obedience. None dare question him.

The neural priesthood pathways in Mr. Packer’s cranium connect in the following sequence of switching patterns.

1. Jesus Christ is the planet’s redeemer.

2. Jesus ordained a male priesthood to run His church.

3. I know Jesus is my personal redeemer.

4. Jesus had Joseph Smith restore His church.

5. Jesus personally called me to be one of his modern apostles for which I was fore-ordained.

6. Jesus likes me personally and we two think a lot alike if not exactly alike.

7. I never disagree with Jesus and besides, I owe Him “big time” for not only saving my spiritual ass, but providing me with a high status, life long career with all the worldly and eternal benefits a fellow could ever dream of.

8. I will make the ultimate rank of prophet general some day so I will keep this church organized as tight as the fighting air wing I served in during World War II. We will march to the Lord’s orders.

9. I can withstand all of the internal and external political heat because I serve gladly as “hit man” for the Lord.

10. The Lord and I will teach all sinners and apostates a lesson in obedience whether they like it or not. Especially those damned to hell intellectuals, feminists and gays.

11. I am the most faithful and spiritually solid of the current General Authorities and when Hinckley passes on I will straighten out the mainstream mess he has created the past fifteen years of his tenure.

Mr. Packer has been extremely consistent and predictable since being ordained an apostle. All of his decisions and policies have be reinforced as being true because He has been advanced in tenure and rank up to his current position as Acting President of Quorum of the Twelve and second in line behind Thomas Monson to become prophet, seer and revelator.

In fact, Mr. Packer views the hate mail and public outcries from heathen apostates against his policies as a sure marker that he is indeed on the Lord’s chosen path.

Mr. Packer is not a patient of The Utah State Hospital because his delusional content currently has internal consistency and is widely accepted by the local public. In other words he is not acting “crazy” in Utah. But if he were in Mecca, Saudi Arabia or Peking, China or Jakarta, Indonesia he would be locked up in the asylum, stoned or executed.

Mr. Packer’s delusion of being a servant of the Lord contains several layers and dimensions, all of which actually have their own logic and self-serving purpose. If Packer’s entrenched belief system were actually true, then his soldiering for Jesus would make perfect sense.

If Packer’s belief system is actually false, then we can have all kinds of fun and adventure exploring his psyche, motivation, behavior and emotional state.

Applying President Hinckley’s recent priesthood policy of nixing bearded temple workers I can only hope that Packer will commence shaving the whiskers of his chinny chin chin with Occam’s Razor. Seeing Packer, clean shaven of his fallacies and delusions and being exposed unprotected to reality would be fascinating. What other form of reality would he construct to cope with and explain his human existence?

Packer, being in his late 70’s would be unable to re-route all of his neurons to a reality based consciousness and would prefer to stroke out, pass out, pout or shout.

Now in his own unshakable testimony Packer lays down the marching orders for the faithful:

"Those fifteen words from Alma state: "God gave unto them commandments, after having made known to them the plan of redemption." There are many things that cannot be understood nor taught nor explained unless it is in terms of the plan of redemption. The three areas that I mentioned are among them. Unless they understand the basic plan -- the premortal existence, the purposes of life, the fall, the atonement, the resurrection -- unless they understand that, the unmarried, the abused, the handicapped, the abandoned, the addicted, the disappointed, those with gender disorientation, or the intellectuals will find no enduring comfort. They can't think life is fair unless they know the plan of redemption.”

That young man with gender disorientation needs to know that gender was not assigned at mortal birth, that we were sons and daughters of God in the premortal state.”

The woman pleading for help needs to see the eternal nature of things and to know that her trials -- however hard to bear -- in the eternal scheme of things may be compared to a very, very bad experience in the second semester of the first grade. She will find no enduring peace in the feminist movement. There she will have no hope. If she knows the plan of redemption, she can be filled with hope.”

The one who supposes that he "understands the mind-set of both groups" needs to understand that the doctrines of the gospel are revealed through the Spirit to prophets, not through the intellect to scholars.”

Only when they have some knowledge of the plan of redemption will they understand the supposed inequities of life. Only then will they understand the commandments God has given us. If we do not teach the plan of redemption, whatever else we do by way of programs and activities and instructions will not be enough.”

"God gave unto them commandments, after having made known unto them the plan of redemption." We face invasions of the intensity and seriousness that we have not faced before. There is the need now to be united with everyone facing the same way. Then the sunlight of truth, coming over our shoulders, will mark the path ahead. If we perchance turn the wrong way, we will shade our eyes from that light and we will fail in our ministries.”

God grant that a testimony of the redemption and knowledge of the doctrine will be so fundamentally in our minds and in our hearts that we will move forward with his approval. This Church will prevail. There is no power in existence that can thwart the work in which we are engaged. Of that I bear witness, and of him who is our redeemer I bear witness in the name of Jesus Christ, amen."

Trimming Packer’s Belief System – Occam’s Razor Therapy

Packer’s basis for his infallible belief system is based upon a scripture taken from a book of fiction known as The Book of Momron. One fallacy breeds another.

Assumes that the only means of any comfort in life is through belief in a redeemer.

Assumes that only “young men” experience “gender disorientation.” He excludes older men and also females of all ages.

Assumes that feminists are shallow and non-consolable people.

Assumes that enlightenment can not come from using one’s intellect.

Assumes that being human is just an irritating pit stop along the Mormon highway to heaven.

Assumes that a nuclear holocaust, asteroid strike upon the earth, overpopulation, germ warfare, a democratic majority or common sense can not thwart the Mormon Church’s growth and progress.

Summary and Conclusion

Mr. Packer is either a sub-intellectual, woman hating, homophobic, grandiose, self righteous believer of fairy tales or the most saintly person since Adam. And since Adam never existed, that only leaves the first option.

Packer’s entire speech is posted below for your further review.

Talk to the All-Church Coordinating Council

By Elder Boyd K. Packer
May 18, 1993

The twelfth chapter of Alma is like a field of precious stones lying about on the surface. I have picked one very small one, very precious one, only fifteen words, to use as my text. "God gave unto them commandments, after [first] having made known unto them the plan of redemption." (Alma 12:32)

Thirty-eight years ago I came from Brigham City to the office I now occupy in the Administration Building to see Elder Harold B. Lee, who, next to President Joseph Fielding Smith, was the senior member of the Quorum of the Twelve. I had just been appointed the supervisor of Seminaries and Institutes of Religion. I knew there were serious problems in the system and I wondered why they had not appointed someone with more experience.

Elder Lee had agreed to give me counsel and some direction. He didn't say much, nothing really in detail, but what he told me has saved me time and time again. "You must decide now which way you face," he said. "Either you represent the teachers and students and champion their causes or you represent the Brethren who appointed you. You need to decide now which way you face." then he added, "some of your predecessors faced the wrong way." It took some hard and painful lessons before I understood his counsel. In time, I did understand, and my resolve to face the right way became irreversible.

One of the early lessons was also my first lesson in correlation. The seminaries were sponsoring speech contests., They were very successful -- much better than similar contests sponsored by the Mutual Improvement Association. It was an ideal gospel-centered activity for seminaries. They were succeeding beautifully under able teachers who could assist even the shy students. We were instructed to discontinue them!

There was something of an uprising among the teachers. They accused Superintendent Curtis of the Young Men and President Reeder of the Young Women of being responsible. Perhaps they were. The teachers wanted Brother Tuttle and me to plead their cause before the Brethren. The logic was all on our side. Nevertheless we remembered the counsel of Brother Lee, and really, just out of obedience, we declined.

Later I could see that the seminaries served then only a very small part of our youth; the MIA, all of them. A B-minus program reaching most of the youth would, in the aggregate, bring better results than an A-plus program which reached relatively few. It wasn't until many years later, when some other problems arose, that I could see that those contests, even though they were gospel centered, pulled the teachers into an activity-oriented mind-set and away from the less exciting responsibility of teaching the Old and New Testaments to teenagers. Finally I could see that the very success of the program was an enemy.

Other lessons followed, some of them hard ones. I was asked to write an article for the Improvement Era. It was returned with the request that I change some words. I smarted! The replacement words didn't convey exactly what I was trying to say. I balked a bit, and was told that Richard L. Evans, then of the Seventy and magazine editor, had asked that the changes be made. I remembered Brother Lee's counsel. I had to submit. Now, though that article is piled under thirty-five years of paper, I'm glad, very glad, that if someone digs it out, I was "invited" to change it.

After one of my first general conference talks, I received a call from Joseph Anderson. In a very polite way he said that President McKay and his counselors suggested that I add one word to the text of my talk. Would I mind doing that? Actually the word was in my text, I just failed to read it at the pulpit. A most embarrassing lesson -- the First Presidency! It was easier when Elder Evans corrected my work; even easier when one of my associates was kind enough to do it.

Only last Friday while putting together some things for a presentation, I read part of it to some brethren from BYU. I noticed they looked at one another at one place in my reading, and I stopped and asked if there was a problem. Finally one of them suggested that I not use a certain scripture that I had included even though it said exactly what I wanted to convey. How dare they suppose that a member of the Twelve didn't know his scriptures! I simply said, "What do you suggest?" He said, "Better find another scripture," and he pointed out that if I put that verse back in context, it was really talking about another subject. Others had used it as I proposed to use it, but it was not really correct. I was very glad to make a change.

Now you may not need a correlating hand in what you do, but I certainly do. This brother lingered after the meeting to thank me for being patient with him. Thank me! I was thankful to him. If I ever make that presentation, it will only be after some of our Correlation staff have checked it over for me.

Now I give you all full credit for knowing more about your work than anyone else -- more, certainly than the staff of the Correlation Department. That is how it should be, for you are hired or called to be a specialist. I also know from experience how easy it is to get turned around, and, as Brother Lee warned, to face the wrong way.

However much you know about your work, I doubt that you know, or have the time to learn, as much as do the Correlation staff about how your work interacts with everything else that is going on. The Council of the Twelve Apostles is the Correlation Committee, with the President of the Twelve and the two senior members acting as the executive committee. Correlation is the one department where they are hired to be generalists. They represent the Brethren in pointing out to you areas where you, in one detail or another, might, in the interest of the overall program, need to make an adjustment or two.

The principle of correlation is a sound principle. Except for its having been established, we could not now possibly administer an ever-growing multi-national and multi-lingual church. The full purpose for its having been established, I know, is yet to be realized. If we neglect it, we will pay a very, very heavy price one day. The value of having struggled through those years, and there aren't many around who struggled through those years, will one day be apparent. The greatest use of this is yet to come.

The responsibility to effect a reduction and simplification in programs was assigned by the First Presidency to Correlation Department. We have been only modestly successful at best. Perhaps just to have slowed the growth is enough reward for all the effort that has been put in. There are isolated success stories. The Music Department, catching the vision, reduced five manuals of 190 pages into one manual of 18 pages. They did it themselves, and they count themselves better for it.

Perhaps too many of us are strong advocates of our own specialized work or are such strong protectors of our own turf that we face the wrong way -- maybe just sideways. Simplification and reduction must come. Simplification and reduction will come! If we cannot do it on our own -- and we seem to be in that circumstance -- the future will see us doing, in anxious haste, that which we might have done with deliberate care had we followed the vision which has been given to us.

Surely you have been anxiously watching the worldwide evaporation of values and standards from politics, government, society, entertainment, schools. Could you be serving in the Church without having turned to those pages in the revelations and to those statements of the prophets that speak of the last days? Could you, in working for the Church, not be conscious of or have ignored the warnings? Could you be blind to the drift that is taking place? Are you not conscious of the drift that is taking place in the Church? Could you believe other than it is critical that all of us work together and set aside personal interests and all face the same way?

It is so easy to be turned about without realizing that it has happened to us. There are three areas where members of the Church, influenced by social and political unrest, are being caught up and led away. I chose these three because they have made major invasions into the membership of the Church. In each, the temptation is for us to turn about and face the wrong way, and it is hard to resist, for doing it seems so reasonable and right.

The dangers I speak of come from the gay-lesbian movement, the feminist movement (both of which are relatively new), and the ever-present challenge from the so-called scholars or intellectuals. Our local leaders must deal with all three of them with ever-increasing frequency. In each case, the members who are hurting have the conviction that the Church somehow is doing something wrong to members or that the Church is not doing enough for them. To illustrate, I will quote briefly from letters on each of those subjects. They are chosen from among many letters which have arrived in the last few weeks. These have arrived in just the last few days.

The Gay/Lesbian Challenge

The first is from a young man, possibly a gay rights activist:

"May 3rd marks my 18th year in the Church. As a gay Mormon, I have witnessed and experienced first-hand during those eighteen years what it's like to be a homosexual in a Church which is sometimes less than accepting of its gay members. My experiences have run the range from incredible, Spirit-filled and loving encounters with members, Bishops and Stake Presidents to a laughable run-in with a departing Mission President. May I share with you some of the more permanent and meaningful memories?"

After a page or two of those, he said, "So in a spirit of friendship I offer that which I have to give -- the life experience of a gay Mormon. At your convenience I would be happy to meet with you to discuss the issues facing gay Latter-day Saints and the Church. The purpose for meeting is not to debate, or to presumptively call you to repentance, or to be called to repentance myself for being gay. The point is to meet together and share what we have for the good of The Kingdom and the furthering of the Will of the Lord on Earth."

The Feminist Movement

The next quotation is from a woman who is hurting, and perhaps wonders if anyone but the feminists care about her problems:

"I'm upset that I was always advised to go back and try harder only to get abused more. I need some comfort, I need solace, need hope, need to know Heavenly Father sees all that I have endured. What hope do I have for a chance to live with Heavenly Father? If temple marriage is the key to the celestial [kingdom], where am I? Outside gnashing my teeth for eternity? Help me."

The Scholars

The last is from a self-described intellectual:

"My concern is that the Brethren are contending with the church's own scholars. ... In the Catholic Church, the great scholars' efforts were used by the Church to refine and strengthen the doctrine (St. Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, for example). In our Church, the scholars are put down, even banished [and he names three of them, and they would be names all of whom you would know]. Once again I extend an offer to you to be a peacemaker between the Brethren and the scholars, if you wish me to attempt it, since I know so many in both groups. More than that, I understand the mind-sets of both groups."

These letters and hundreds more are from members who are hurting or leaders who are worried. I might say here that I can see in the last few weeks a change in the letters coming in. There isn't time to talk about it now, but out in the Church there is another growing group of the discontented. That is the rank and file who are trying to do what they are supposed to do and feel neglected as we concentrate on solving the problems of the exceptions.

Those who are hurting think they are not understood. They are looking for a champion, an advocate, someone with office and influence from whom they can receive comfort. They ask us to speak about their troubles in general conference, to put something in the curriculum, or to provide a special program to support them in their problems or with their activism.

When members are hurting, it is so easy to convince ourselves that we are justified, even duty bound, to use the influence of our appointment or our calling to somehow represent them. We then become their advocates -- sympathize with their complaints against the Church, and perhaps even soften the commandments to comfort them. Unwittingly we may turn about and face the wrong way. Then the channels of revelation are reversed. Let me say that again. Then the channels of revelation are reversed. In our efforts to comfort them, we lose our bearings and leave that segment of the line to which we are assigned unprotected. The question is not whether they need help and comfort. That goes without saying. The question is "How?" The Prophet Joseph Smith, when he organized the Relief Society said, "There is the need for decisions of character aside from sympathy."

Working Mothers

To illustrate principles which apply to all of these problems, I have taken one common one -- working mothers. President Ezra Taft Benson gave a talk to wives and mothers. There was a reaction within the Church. (Ten years ago, that would not have happened.) That was very interesting, because if you read his talk carefully, it was, for the most part, simply a compilation of quotations on the subject from the prophets who have preceded him.

Some mothers must work out of the home. There is no other way. And in this they are justified and for this they should not be criticized. We cannot, however, because of their discomfort over their plight, abandon a position that has been taught by the prophets from the beginning of this dispensation. The question then is, "How can we give solace to those who are justified without giving license to those who are not?"

The comfort they need is better, for the most part, administered individually. To point out so-called success stories inferring that a career out of the home has no negative effect on a family is an invitation to many to stray from what has been taught by the prophets and thus cause members to reap disappointment by and by.

I think President Thomas S. Monson may not appreciate what I am going to say now. I know of no one who maintains such a large private ministry of counsel and comfort in the midst of heavy pressures of office than does Brother Monson. He says very little about it, but he visits the sick, hospitals, homes, comforting, counseling, both in person and in writing. However, I have never heard him over the pulpit, nor have I read anything in his writings -- not one thing -- that would give any license to any member to stray from the counsel of the prophets or to soften the commandments that the Lord has given. There is a way to give comfort that is needed.

If we are not very careful, we will think we are giving comfort to those few who are justified and actually we will be giving license to the many who are not. The process of correlation is designed to keep us from making mistakes in manuals, in publications, in films, in videos, in those specialized programs which are justified.

Those fifteen words from Alma state: "God gave unto them commandments, after having made known to them the plan of redemption." There are many things that cannot be understood nor taught nor explained unless it is in terms of the plan of redemption. The three areas that I mentioned are among them. Unless they understand the basic plan -- the premortal existence, the purposes of life, the fall, the atonement, the resurrection -- unless they understand that, the unmarried, the abused, the handicapped, the abandoned, the addicted, the disappointed, those with gender disorientation, or the intellectuals will find no enduring comfort. They can't think life is fair unless they know the plan of redemption.

That young man with gender disorientation needs to know that gender was not assigned at mortal birth, that we were sons and daughters of God in the premortal state.

The woman pleading for help needs to see the eternal nature of things and to know that her trials -- however hard to bear -- in the eternal scheme of things may be compared to a very, very bad experience in the second semester of the first grade. She will find no enduring peace in the feminist movement. There she will have no hope. If she knows the plan of redemption, she can be filled with hope.

The one who supposes that he "understands the mind-set of both groups" needs to understand that the doctrines of the gospel are revealed through the Spirit to prophets, not through the intellect to scholars.

Only when they have some knowledge of the plan of redemption will they understand the supposed inequities of life. Only then will they understand the commandments God has given us. If we do not teach the plan of redemption, whatever else we do by way of programs and activities and instructions will not be enough.

"God gave unto them commandments, after having made known unto them the plan of redemption." We face invasions of the intensity and seriousness that we have not faced before. There is the need now to be united with everyone facing the same way. Then the sunlight of truth, coming over our shoulders, will mark the path ahead. If we perchance turn the wrong way, we will shade our eyes from that light and we will fail in our ministries.

God grant that a testimony of the redemption and knowledge of the doctrine will be so fundamentally in our minds and in our hearts that we will move forward with his approval. This Church will prevail. There is no power in existence that can thwart the work in which we are engaged. Of that I bear witness, and of him who is our redeemer I bear witness in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.

Comments Section

Can Packer walk anymore?

Two of his sons lived in my parent's stake when I was a teenager. For a mutual activity we were playing volleyball at one of the son's homes in their backyard. It would have been the early to mid-1990s. Who walks out the back door and approaches the team I wasn't playing on from behind? Boyd Packer himself.

He walked with much difficulty and very slowly twenty years ago. Polio is a horrible disease. I was struck by how much older he seemed compared to what you see at conference. Everyone fell silent, and nobody seemed to know what to do next. Keep playing? Talk with the old guy that speaks directly to God? Ask him to join?

He asked for the ball, my friend how was playing on my side of the net yells, "Hit it right here!" Knowing this good friend, who has admitted to being an a$$hole as a teenager, he probably would have spiked it right back at Boyd as hard as he could.

The ball didn't make it over the net. - 04/10/2013 - moreevilthanhitler


In my lifetime I have see the Church have women swear obedience to the law of their husband and that changed, I have seen the ending of "study groups," "prayer circles," law of common consent, welfare farms, Lamanite programs, removal of the penalties in the endowment, priesthood to Blacks (this was good), deception by Mark Hofmann of the very elect, just to name a few of the changes in God's restoration of all things.

The Church even disavowed Mormon and now is embracing it and even joined the Catholics in removing agency for lesbians and gays, which for most of my life was taught that the Catholics were the great and abominable church.

Never once have I hear the Church apologize for the harm they have done or explain why thy attempt to down play our history of our early prophets being polygamists.

In the 50s people were taught that depression could be cure through fasting and prayer, "To The One" has caused a great deal of suffering and suicides for teens faced with SSA (Same Sex Attraction).

The Church leaders are never quick to embrace medical science unless it prolongs their own life so that "Gods will" can ensure they out live each other. They totally reject medical and scientific knowledge about sexuality and that male and female is not as always absolute as they profess.

The point is that I am tired of there pronouncements as speaking for God. If that were true why all the changes to the restored gospel. Do you infer that God didn't know what he was doing?

I frankly have come to realize we are not led by infallible men but mere mortals like the rest of us. I do not worship other than God & Christ and have used the Holy Spirit to know for myself the truth!

If prophets were infallible why the disclaimer in the title page of the B of M? My simple test? Who is my neighbor and how have I treated him? What have I done to the very least of these? Did I seek out the one and leave the 99? Where is the call to end divorce in the proclamation on the family?

When will the Saints question the actions of their leaders and hold them accountable as was done in the early periods of the Church. Members need to study the history and actions of the leaders of the Church then simply as how did they treat their neighbor or those they despised. In this they will come to know the truth and that is it has become the doctrine of God mingled with the philosophies of men.

The best example is Boyd K Packer and his recent talk denouncing homosexuals. If the Celestial Kingdom is made up of such men, I am glad I'm going to Hell! I will be more than happy to stand as a witness against him and his arrogant, pompous unrighteous dominion!

TBMs (True Believing Mormons) don't be shocked when you reap the consequences of what your hatred of gays and Prop 8 will bring you, after all you are led by inspired men who should have known. - 10/15/2010 - Docrobbie - A lover of truth


We must live on different planets. I have met BKP, listened to him numerous of times and can state he is a prophet. He is not a perfect man, and anyone who expects perfection from anyone other than the Christ has a problem with and in their life.

Everyone of us has to stand on his/her own. We survive in this life by helping one another,and if we are blessed to hear the words of a prophet and can discern how these words can apply in our lives; then what a blessing!

Remember, the biggest room in one's life is the room for improvement. Make sure you have not locked the door to this room. If you have...then listen to the words of any prophet for they have the perfect set of keys to open your door. - 10/14/2010 - Miguel Montes


Nothing positive by Packer.

Darth Packer has nothing positive or new to give to tweens. It's the same: gays are bad; masturabation is bad; porn is bad; non-Mormon friends are bad; mind your parents and bishop.

He does nothing to explain to them the challenges of their lives. He doesn't tell them of their body changes, of the peer pressures they face, of the important choices they make. Just "bad, no, don't".

You are dead on about the gender confusion. This old canard is that gay men want to women and vice-versa. It shows that Darth Packer learned about gays back before WWII, and knows nothing of the last 70 years of psychological research on the subject.

How can you possibly help gay youth when you are laboring under such backwards prejudices? How can you come up with solutions with such flawed mental models?

Darth Packer is living proof that the LDS church is run by bigoted old men who should be playing mahjong, not pretending to be prophets. - 04/16/2009 - AxelDC


i despise all of you he is a man chosen of god to lead us and you say these things of him i hope that you all repent or be condemed of these thing you say in the life to come - 12/15/2008 - Elder Zite


I would like to know, how in any form of imagination, anyone can have any respect, and much worse, follow one, who had (while swearing otherwise) God only knows, the number of wives that Joeseph Smith had. Shows such a high degree of respect for women, don't you think! And what a legacy he and the likes of Brother Young have left. If you need a current example---look at Jeffs and the sick facts coming out of Texas (El Dorado Mormon Temple). What actually is, a sex offender or child molester! It is such a sad and covered up story. - 05/10/2008 - anon


I don't know about any of the encounters you had with President Packer, but you should not misquote people, especially someone who speaks the word of God. Are you LDS, or used to be? Even if you have found someone to be a little formal or a little up-tight where they might not be the friendliest people in the world, it still means that they could be one of the most righteous on the world today AKA one of the 12 apostles. It's one thing if you don't agree with the church's teachings, but you might as well keep it to yourself and stop trying to tear others down. I as well as thousands of others have the up most respect for President Packer and believe his teachings. If you do not feel the same, which seems obvious, please have the dignity to spare the rest of the world of your false accusations. Thank you. - 12/27/2007 - Christine


To the author of this site, I pity your soul. The Scriptures talk a lot about those who demean the leaders of the Church. And judging from what you have demonstrated here of your sick life, I'd say you were in for a very painful (and long, hot) ride. Best of luck! (If you were smart you'd get help before you self destruct.) From a former Naval Officer, Retired Airline Pilot, & United Nations Lobbyist - 10/10/2007 - Captain


Garments are absolutely vulgar, aren't they? Mormons are so obedience-obsessed they even let their religion dictate the underwear they wear. - 07/17/2007 - Steve


Honestly...Don't these people realize if they were born in the middle east they would be running around going alalalal! To think they will go thought their little brainwashed lives believing magic underware is protecting them from "the world" Makes me embarresed to be human. - 03/07/2007 - anon


I didn't understand Packer conducts "rehearsal funeral". Are you making that up or did you copy it from somewhere? The quotes lead the read to believe that this is a first hand account. If it is made up, I think you should mention that it is fictitious. Otherwise, you're just a bad writer. - 03/20/2007 - - Sam


Note to Sam: Hello, anybody home? This was parody. Hopefully you will be endowed with a keener sense of humor on the morning of the first resurrection.

For someone who claims to know so much about Mormons and Mormonism - from a hostile position, dare I say? - your apparent ignorance of succession to the presidency of the Church on the death of the incumbent president is abysmal.

Dare I suggest that you get yourself a better 'mole' inside CHQ? one that knows somehting baout th eorganisation, for instance?

Have a fun time kicking the Mormon Church upstairs!

God bless you. - 02/28/2007 - Signed: A REAL (but necessarily anonymous) Mormon.


Darth Packer is chillingly a reminder of another cult figure, although this one had genuine charisma..... Werner Erhard of The Forum and EST fame, who implied that he was Heaven sent, who demanded discipline, who was a Moral Policeman, who had all the answers, brooked no dissent, was arrogant, dictatorial and an a real professional sonofabitch who let power corrupt. - 02/27/2007 - HJ - handjobber


The minute you begin to criticize the brethern you are on the high road to apostasy...a paraphrase from a very loving, caring, honest, and wonderful prophet of the Lord: Joseph Smith. The church is true, and I am ashamed that I came across such a will surely be to all of your condemnation. As Joseph said again, A prophet is only a prophet when he is prophesizing. Same goes for an apostle. It is sad that you are all without feeling. - 02/18/2007 - from


Post your story or comments about Packer in this text box.

Name or handle:

E-Mail - leave blank to remain anonymous:


Home - Site Map