Mormon Space Doctrine - LDS - Kolob - Salamander Society

Mormon Space Doctrine

Joseph Smith Time Magazine

"Spaced out" or make the call.

Farewell to Eden: Coming to terms with Mormonism and science
by Duwayne Anderson Click image for details and reviews.


Celestial Sex - How long to make a spirit baby

11/08/2014 - by EXON46 and others at Recovery from Mormonism

You must have "milk before meat", my Son. - ConcernedCitizen

I thought god has a body of flesh and bone. What is he having sex with to make spirit babies? Spirit women? Who are ghosts. Who are dead people. Which is necrophelia. God must have a fleshy spirit bone(r). - ddt

Well if one celestial day is 1000 years, and a celestial pregnancy is forty celestial weeks: 40 * 7 * 1000 = 280000 earthly years for one celestial pregnancy. Don't worry though, they are spirits, your belly don't need to grow. It has always amused me to ponder what exactly keeps the spirit babies in the womb, supposedly they can float right through anything physical. - brefots

Do you think the earth has a birth canal? You see Mormon doctrine tells us the earth also had a preexistence as a spiritual earth and will die and be resurrected. Where do you think all those new worlds are going to come from? Planets beget planets. The earth has parents.

I love this site. Basically, that's what happens if you believe what Mormon prophets have taught. Many things on that site are still believed by Mormons to this day:

"It is [the author's] hope that someday, he may have the privilege of visiting his cousins of the Ten Tribes in the North Countries of the Hollow Earth! The author's own ancestry is of Israelitish origin, of the Tribe of Ephraim, and can be traced back to the Exile of the Ten Tribes from Palestine when they were carried captive into Assyria in 721 B.C." - rt

30 minutes of cajoling, promises and lies 10 minutes to part the royal garments
1 minute foreplay
2 minutes celestial baloney pony
10 seconds "la petite mort"
3 months barfing
6 months craving, bloating, and bitching
18 hours of cursing wildly at the SOB who got you into this mess in the first place! - Senoritalamanita

Two hours of begging is NOT considered foreplay. - Chloe

How does one get a boner without blood? - popeyes

They have blood, sort of. It is celestial fluid, changed in a twinkling after you die. Celestial bodies procreating with earthly humans is documented in the Bible. The results of these unions between "angels" and "the daughters of men" were called Nephilim. Ergo and therefore, Jesus was a Nephilim.

Another interesting question would be how can a celestial body have intercourse and produce a spirit baby instead of a celestial-body? It contradicts Genesis, which states that like produces like. But then the Bible also says that all things were created physically first (like Adam) and then the spirit is breathed into the body. WHAT? BREATHED?

The temple teaches us that Michael the Archangel was the spirit body that became Adam in the Garden of Eden. Which contradicts the Bible, which says that there is no fooling around in heaven because angels have no bodies and do not marry. WHich means that the Heavenly Mother that had sex with a celestial man to produce the spirit baby that was Michael has to have been an angel instead of a celestial glorified human being. Except that Adam's spirit was "Breathed" by Heavenly Father. Therefore, spirit babies develop in the lungs of male celestial bodies instead of in uteri of females. I have no more words. - anagrammy

Spirit babies are farted out like gas. Two farts equals two babies. You guys aren't very smart. - snuckafoodberry

Do you suppose Heavenly Father might have premature ejaculation? Is he too quick on the trigger? Go off half-cocked? - serena

It's one thing to have a spirit baby one wife at a time, but think about the work that "god" has to do to impregnate all of his wives. Here's a calculation that I posted a while back: It's estimated that 106 billion of us have lived on earth to date. So how long would it take to create that many spirit children? I donÕt know but letÕs assume it took 1 million years and then see the consequences of that assumption. So, 106 billion spirit babies divided by 1 million years means 106 thousand babies per year. Assuming God shoots real bullets and not blanks 100% of the time, He would have to ejaculate 106 thousand times per year. ThatÕs one every 5 seconds! I guess that why heÕs God! And I guess that is why He is slow to answer our prayers. (As an aside, old Joe Smith is probably having a ball up there!) Furthermore, assuming each wife gets pregnant with one shot and has a spirit baby every 9 months, it would take 81,540 wives to have that many babies (Brigham is smacking his lips!). Ok, that might not be too practical, so letÕs assume it took 10 million years to create the spirit bodies for all of earthÕs inhabitants to date. That means that God had to ejaculate every 50 seconds and that there were 8,154 wives. Or, assume 100 million years: He had to ejaculate every 8.3 minutes and there were 815 wives. You get the picture. - rocketscientist

Don't forget the phrase "worlds without number". No wonder HF doesn't have enough time to answer anybody's prayers. - greenpotato

Their blood is replaced by finer stuff, whatever that stuff is supposed to be. I always wondered how a being of flesh and bone could only have a spirit baby. Why doesn't it have flesh and bone too? You'd think that a god could only give birth to another god. How can a perfect being give birth to something which is less than perfect? - Greyfort

Depends on how long it takes to get spirit wife drunk. - Outcast

Oral sex in heaven creates spiritual babies. Right after the wife talks, a spirit baby comes out of her mouth. - 48erhater

Do God and Jesus fart? They have bodies right?

09/18/2014 - by Elder Berry and others at Recovery from Mormonism

They are one in mind but two in bodies and digestive systems, yeah but verily they stinketh not. - fakemoroni

Faith of a Scientist Elohim farting big bang.


Imagine the beatific aroma of God flatulence. The Holy Ghost would, of course, break silent but deadly wind. Jesus would pass the sacrament gas. - donbagley


D&C 1:38 What I the Lord have farted, I have farted, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my wind shall not pass away, but shall fill all, whether by mine own asshole or by the asshole of my servants, it is the same.

Show me the gas. Have you listened to General Conference yet? - moose


Whoever "Jesus" (either a singular male, or as a collective of "rabbis"/Jewish "wise men") was the "person" we refer to as "he" had exactly the same digestive system...and exactly the same CONTENTS in that digestive system.

As well as exactly the same amount of flatulence, which smelled exactly the same, as any other Jewish man of that part of the Middle East in that time.

And this is, of course, ditto for the ultimate products (both solid and liquid) of that part of the world's typical male digestive system.

("God," in Jewish thought, was NEVER a human none of the above applies to whoever the entity known as "God" might have been at that time and in that place.)

P.S. It is a three-day "weekend" around here (today/tomorrow/Thursday), so my posting is likely to be erratic. Thursday is, in addition, a birthday here which means an annual restaurant meal of jambalaya for the birthday honoree so if it happens that I don't get back to this for awhile, now you know why. - tevai


I think it works like this. They fart, but before the fart escapes their celstial asshole, it is transformed or quickened into its celestial glory, which means it turns into a new spirit baby to be born to TBM's. (True Believing Mormons)

Maybe that's why LDS churches smell so foul? -Jonny the Smoke


Oh, I see. They fart intelligences. "The word "intelligences" (plural) occurs frequently in LDS literature, having reference to the period of the premortal existence of mankind. The term has received two interpretations by writers within the Church: as the literal spirit children of Heavenly Parents and as individual entities existing prior to their spirit birth. Because latter-day revelation has not clarified the meaning of the term, a more precise interpretation is not possible at present."

Intelligences are preexistent God-gas which after The Atonement now have double the production power thanks to the digestive tract of Jesus. - Elder Berry-


I am happy to state that the resounding answer is "yes"; absolutely. The scriptures don't necessarily come out and say it, but with the enlightening and decerning power of the spirt, even the Holiest of Ghostus's, one will understand and know for himself that God and his son do indeed fart. For example:

D&C 8:2-3 - "Yea, behold, I will tell you in your mind and by my farts which shall come upon you and which shall dwell in your nostrils. Now, behold, this is the stench of my farts; behold, this is the force by which Moses brought the children of Israel through the Red Sea on dry ground..I the Lord farted, and it divided the waters."

D&C 18:10, 15-16 - "Remember the worth of my farts is great in the sight of God; "And if it so be that you should labor all your days in crying because of my farts, and heave, save it be one time, how great shall be your joy with him in the kingdom of my farts!

There you have it...careful reading by the power of the spirit hath confirmed. Good question OP. - Hugh


Gas came to pass. In case you were wondering what the "It" was in Joe Smith's favorite phrase. - jerry64


And it came to gas? - Elder Berry


Represents the gas in Jesus' bowels when he was crucified.

The sign is made by bringing the left foot in front of you with the leg in a bent shape, the left foot forming a stance; the right foot is also brought forward and the palms of the hands placed down extended on the bum one on each cheek.

The penalty was represented by drawing the bum quickly open, farting and dropping the hands to the sides. The oath is similar to the previous oaths.

The name of this token is "the Sun", meaning the Sun of Gas from which all of us came to be. - Elder Berry


It's called thunder. - Mr Happy


Reminds me of Bob Seger lyrics: And we waited on the thunder. Waited on the thunder. I awoke last night to the sound of thunder. - tevai


"How fart off, I sat and wondered." - donbagley


"There is a Green Hill Fart Away!" - beyondashadow


God farts. Try's to keep it sacred not secret. - anonyyy


I love to see the temple. I'll fart inside some day. I'll smell The Holy Spirit.

The sign of the digestive system of God is a brown line along the bottom of the garment bottom of the Holy Priesthood. - Elder Berry


They shit, but they only shit marbles. - cludgie


Which then become worlds for their children to rule over. Horton hears a. - Elder Berry


They fart rainbows, of course. - rationalist01


God does not fart or shlt. His body being perfect digests all food perfectly. If gos was to shlt, it would be a perfect turd. A perfect turd looks a lot like a Monson Pie with a nose. - themaster


And ears that wiggled and jiggled. - Elder Berry


God is pretty old. His prostate must be huge. - Heresy


I'm not sure we teach that but the Journal of Discourses has quite a lot to say about this topic. - nonsequiter


God farts a toxic cloud known as High Priest Death Gas

When I was a faithful Aaronic Priestood jerkoff, one fine Sunday I happened to walk into the High Priests Quorum classroom just as the door opened at the end of their priesthood class lesson.

I innocently walked inside, and when I drew a breath I nearly fell over from the dizzying olfactory assault of toxic, noxious, hyper-polluted, fermented, caustic gas I was inhaling.

I stopped breathing immediately and turned around and left the room as fast as possible to get to some breathable air.

Apparently the room had no ventilation and had filled up with the collective exhale and garment crack emissions of a couple dozen nearly dead old High Priest farts sporting lifetime accumulations of toxic pollutants embedded in their alveoli and impacted intestinal deposits starting 50-100 years ago.

My exmo siblings and I refer to this toxic gas as HPDG High Priest Death Gas.

Not sure if God's Pharts are HPDG, but if High Priests are anywhere next to Godliness, could be possible. - beyondashadow


EPA levels sanctions against LDS Church for HPDG emissions

So when is the EPA (Eternal Protection Agency) going to sanction the LDS Church for exceeding their HPDG emission limits?

Just the hot air expelled during General Conference raises global warming by ten degrees but adding all that HPDG throughout the year has reached genocidal proportions. The end is sight! - cricket


Oh, butt they will and help you smell The Spirit of God like a fire burning in their bosom. - Elder Berry


Of course God and Jesus fart. How else will we spend the eternities sharing fart jokes? - The Invisible Green Potato


The worst is riding with both God and Jesus in a hot car with no a/c after eating Mexican. They both snickered after locking the rear windows. Funny guys. - orange


Yeah, but that is nothing compared to the Big Elohim giving Heavenly Mother the "dutch oven" treatment. -- Mr. Happy


That sounds somewhat disrespectful, Mr. Happy.

Does your Mother know you posted that? Your Heavenly Mother surely does, and don't call her Shirley. - beyondashadow


Oh My Farter - Special Hymn to Honor High Priests Everywhere

Elohim says pull my finger. O my Farter, thou that smellest
In that putrid and poisonous place;
When shall I regain thy essence,
And again inhale thy mace?
In thy holy fermentation
Did my whiffer once inhale?
In my first primeval childhood
Was I tortured near thy tail?

For a wise and glorious purpose
Thou hast plac'd me in Mormondum,
And withheld the recollection
Of my former caustic conundrum:
Yet oft times a secret something
Whiffed that I'm in danger here;
And I smelt that I had wandered
From a more foul smelling sphere.

I had learn'd to call thee farter
Through gas clouds from on high;
But until the scent of pungency
Was restor'd, I knew not why.
In the heavens is flatulence apparent?
Yes, the sound makes reason blare;
Truth is reason-truth infernal
Tells me I nearly smothered there.


Nearer thy gas to me, nearer to me. Let the smell of my bowels ascend to heaven, oh Lord of the gas of Kolob! - Elder Berry

Heavenly Mother - Mormon Sky Mommy

04/05/2010 - by Her children at Recovery from Mormonism

In our ward just a few months ago - by CA girl

In our ward just a few months ago when I was still attending regularly, a woman got up and talked about Heavenly Father, referenced Heavenly Mother and said "Your Heavenly Mother might not be the same as my Heavenly Mother but I know that she loves us and we are her children."

I thought the bishop was going to crawl under his chair from the look on his face. Raised questions about Heavenly Mother and God being a polygamist in one simple statement - excellent!

Mormon Sky Mommy - by Eliza R Snitch

I remember exactly two discussions about Heavenly Mother from my 20 years in Mormonism (aside from the normal talk about how my spirit was born), both of which were short and ended with an adult in charge telling us that WE WERE NOT ALLOWED TO TALK ABOUT HER.

I was immensely disappointed to find that both Jesus and God were supposedly polygamists.

I do not believe in a Sky Mommy, so there's no need to disabuse me of that notion.

The hymn O My Father - by nonamekid

lyrics by Eliza R. Snow contains the following:

"In the heavens are parents single?
No, the thought makes reason stare!
Truth is reason, truth eternal
Tells me I've a mother there"

I wrote a song too (to the tune of "A Child's Prayer" - by wego

Heavenly mother
are you really there?
When I asked bout you
they said "don't you dare"
some say that you are
too heavenly for words
but now I finally know
that is absurd

The size of God -OR- Why I think a 'Father' God doesn't exist.

11/13/2009 - by Frontal Lobotomy from Recovery from Mormonism

It's just the matter of a magnitude relationship.

God created the universe. ergo, God is greater than the universe.

The universe is somewhere around 156,000,000,000 (1.5 x 10^11) light years across. a light year is somewhere around 9,460,730,472,580,800 meters (9.5 x 10^15) Size of universe: 1.4 x 10^27 meters.

I'm 2m tall.

Now, the smallest subatomic particle is a quark, but when you get into quantam mechanics and such, size doesn't really exist and it's more about waves and probabilites, etc. So, we'll use the proton, as it has an "accepted" size of around 10^-15 meters.

(The half-way point between smallest particle and the universe is around the size of the earth itself (6x10^6 m).

so, proton:earth::earth:universe

or another way:

Imagine that a particle existed that was a TRILLION TIMES SMALLER than a proton (ie, 10^-27 m). We'll call it the ittybittyon.

ittybittyon:me::me:universe (Remember, God > universe)

Now, I want you to go have a personal relationship with that ittybittyon.

Care for it, protect it, make sure it follows the rules, listen for it's supplications, call it by name, know it individually and seperately from all the other ittybittyons. Promise it great rewards if it follows the rules and threaten it with harsh punishment if it doesn't.

Can't control your ittybittyon? How about your protons? No? Surely you know your red-blood cells by name? They're pretty big (4x10^-5 m). And the rest of the cells. You know their names, right? There are only 50 trillion or so. Hmm, that is quite a few phonebooks worth, I suppose.

So, to me, IF (giant, 10^26 m size IF) a creater of the universe exists, our insignificance is SO FREAKIN' HUGE, it is the definition of egotistical to assume we are of any interest to him/her/it whatsoever. A mormon loving father in heaven? Let me get my straight-jacket.

atheistically yours,


P.S. Of course I have almost certainly grossly under represented god's power since he concerns himself with even the smallest particles and doesn't stop at our human "quasi midpoint" level.

The god/particle relationship is 1:10^42 ie, 1:100000000000000000000000000000000000000000

Quantum Mormonics

10/26/2009 - by cricket and others from Recovery from Mormonism

Quantum Mormonics: 1. A fundamental Mormon theory of doctrine and policy that explains facts that previous prophets were unable to account for, in particular the fact that doctrine is obfuscated and press-released in small, indiscrete quantities (quanta), and that all Mormon matters display both ravelike and Article of Faithlike properties, especially when viewed at Adamic and sub-Adamic scales. Quantum Mormonics suggests that the behavior of members and investigators is inherently gullablistic and that the effect of the Morganization on the mystical system being observed must be understood as a part of that closed system. Also called quantum patriarchics and quantum theocracy.

2. Often confused with Quorum Mechanics: The political dynamics of the Quorum of the Twelve and First Presidency which leads to chaos in offical doctrine and policy because no one is actually in charge and that a certain doctrine means one thing and simultaneously another thing.

Quantum Melchezidicks - by Don Bagley

Quantum Melchezidicks form a branch of Mormonics as well as free particles known as pisons and mesons, Freemesons being the most mysterious of these. For the mesons possess a quality known as left-handedness.

How could it be that if up and down and left and right are in flux, one could identify left-handednes? Consider a vertical structure as deacom, teachom and priestom. This is a polarity with leftness and rightness (righteousness?).

None can predict that the particle of Eldron can be captured in the eldritch quorum. But there it remains, for the High Priestom is attainable only by far greater power expenditure.

A quorum, by the way, is created by synchronicity, and no other means. A quantum is a bit, which is to say a place-holding particle.

If, and this is not likely, you discover that by quantum or particle, you can influence a quorum, you will find a breakaway theory, and you will be given power and authority to claim young, unwed girls as your own. At this point, you become prophet.

Mormon Theolicy - by Shamdango

Mormon Theolicy: 1) The science of LDS doctrine and policy and their interactions. 2) The theological properties, phenomena, and laws of LDS doctrine and policy; "He studied the theolicy of Mormonism." 3) The study and commentary on the existence and attributes of Mormon theology, and of how that theology behaves and defines itself: as doctrine (definitive LDS theology), or policy (definitive LDS WTF's). See also 'when God speaks as a man.'

Mormon Theolicist: A General Authority trained in LDS theolicy. Persons able to make authoritative statements and rescind them arbitrarily in matters of official LDS theolicy. (Not to be confused with wannabe theolicists; see 'Mormon apologicians')

Mormon Apologicians: 1) Wannabe LDS theolicists. Persons who can make no official statements regarding LDS theolicy, but try to convince others that they can. 2) Persons whose explanation of Mormon theolicy seems to magically fix legitimate doubts of those unfamiliar with LDS theolicy; "That apologician made my doubts about Mormonism disappear!" 3) Persons trained in deceiving an audience into thinking that their magic really works, despite factual evidence to the contrary; "An Mormon Apologician explained to me how a peepstone can be placed into a hat, and a Book of Mormon can magically be pulled out of that same hat. Amazing!"

Quantum Mormonics: 1) explains the behavior of LDS doctrine and policy on the minute scale of subatomic theolicy. The study reveals how doctrine can have policy-like properties and policy can have doctrine-like properties. 2) The theory that LDS doctrine does not have a continuous range of authority, but is, instead, absorbed or radiated discontinuously, in multiples of definite, indivisible units called policy. See also 'soymilk before hamburger.'

Quantum theolicy:

-Introduced by Hinckley (1997) as an improvement upon classical Brighonian Mormonics. An important principle is that some older subatomic theolicies assume an authoritative value of "I don't know that we teach it. I don't know that we emphasize it. . . I don't know a lot about it and I don't know that others know a lot about it."

What about Packer's uncertainty principle - by rt

Which holds that it is impossible to determine a member's behaviour and beliefs simultaneously, which requires the conductor of any quantum mormonics experiment to focus on one or the other (usually behaviour, as this is more easy to control)?

Not to be confused with The Principle, which holds that one man can simultaneously have multiple wives, either in this reality (in case of divorce from, or death of one or more female antibodies) or in a parallel reality (reached through kolob condensation).

Even more important is the Packer Exclusion Principle - by D.P. Gumby

Which states that information which is true cannot exist in the same time and place as information which is useful in defending Mormonism.

The "Unified Field Theory" of this stuff - by SL Cabbie

We want to call it "Quantified Quorum Mormonmoronics."

It's a little slow because he's engaged Professor Irwin Corey as a consultant, and the old guy takes a lot of naps at his age . . .

Some initial parameters from the field (the mission field that is): As the length of time away from home increases, the probabilty that a missionary will masturbate increases hyperbolically while the chance that he will confess remains constant . . .

Also, as the length of mission experience grows, the probability that the letter-writing girl next door will marry someone else increases in direct proportion

Professor Corey just called with some "Law of Relativity" synthesis.

The probability of a "quall to the Quorum" increases quantumly and quantitatively the quoser the relationship to Quorum of the Ruling 12 . . .

The Mormons are even using DNA research on this one . . .

And the unified field implications on this are supported by research that shows consistent DNA overlaps between MP's and Q12 derivatives . . .


Quorum Leap - by Elder Berry Quorum Leap - When the median age shifts much in The Quorum of The Twelve nt

Quorum Elderdynamics - (QED) - is the relativistic quorum field theory of elderdynamics. QED was developed by a number of Mormon religionists, beginning in the late 1820s. It basically describes how Mormons and their leaders interact. More specifically it deals with the interactions between leading elders, lesser elder positions and Mormon peons. QED mathematically describes all phenomena involving spiritually charged Mormon peoples interacting by means of exchange of The Priesthood Keys.

Inferior Subset - by Don Bagley

Of course you understand that quorom elderdynamics are an inferior subset of high priestcraft quantams, and as such, remain in the remainder.

According to the uncertainty principle (not the many wives principle), the elder is fifty percent alive and fifty percent saved. Salvation is asssured only for the high priestcraft quantam.

In the solemn subatomic assembly, all are salvationized, as it were.

You have forgotten The Second Anotation Vector or The Kolobmological Constant - by Elder Berry

It makes salvation assured no matter the uncertainty of The Principle (Celestial Marriage.) This means that more than just the high priestcraft quantam can know that they are saved.

Pair Production - by Bob T

Pair production refers to the creation of an eldermentary missionary and its antimissionary (or another neutral bozon) from an MTC interaction. This is allowed, provided there is enough worthiness available to create the pair – at least the total rest mass energy of the two particles – and that the situation allows both energy and momentum to be conserved. All other conserved quantum numbers (angular momentum, electric charge) of the produced particles must sum to zero — thus the created particles shall have opposite values of each (for instance, if one particle has strangeness +1 then another one must have strangeness -1).

Indeterminacy - by Holy the Ghost

If you can clearly define a doctrine, then you can't know it's truthfulness.

If you can know it's truthfulness, then it can't be clearly defined.

If God has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's, what color are God's feces?

01/19/2009 - by Blashoodaloom

This is a reasonable question. If a being has a gastrointestinal tract with a mouth and anus, God must eat some kind of food, with the post-processing material being expelled eventually thru his heavenly anus. What color is are God's feces? Where are Bruce R. McKonkie and Huge Nibley when you need them?

Resurected bodies don't need food. - Deconstructor

As one of my LDS Institute teachers explained, resurrected bodies do not need food.

I believe it was the Prophet Joseph F. Smith that explained this doctrine. He taught that in the Garden of Eden Adam and Eve had perfect blood in their bodies. This perfect blood provided all the nutrients their bodies needed, so they did not need to eat. When they ate the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge, they corrupted their blood which made their bodies need food.

When we are resurrected, we will have bodies like God again, which are perfectly fit, do not have navels or need food.

If they are shaped like us - Thinking Aloud

Holy Water - Holy Shit I mean, you are well versed in LDS doctrine/theology, but, if you think about it, heavenly, resurrected bodies still look like ours. What inside of them then?

If they are shaped like us, there's a brain in the head, lungs in the chest, organs in the torso, muscles in the legs, a tushie for sitting on.

What good is any of that if you have no need to work or eat or provide for yourself?

Does it make any sense, in other words, for a "perfect" immortal body to look anything like a practical, temporal one? Why fashion it after one either if a person is going to be immortal much longer than they were ever mortal?

I just was wondering what you thought of that. It just makes no sense to me.

Here is a list with more things like this - Deconstructor

Somehow the silly conjectures of an LDS Institute teacher and 18th-century Mormon Prophet satisfy the true-believing mind.

The concept of a resurrected body and how it works and what it eats doesn't make a whole lot of sense when you really start to think about it.

I can only tell you what I heard over the year in the church. There is little written on the subject and church members wont stand by any of it as "doctrine" despite much of it coming from the church's ordained, inspired priesthood leaders as gospel teaching.

I was always taught that resurrected bodies did not eat. Celestialized bodies were better than resurrected bodies in that they could procreate (have sex). The non-celestial resurrected bodies would not have genitals, but would last forever without the need for food.

Again, there is little on this in official church publications. The prophet who said the most on this was Joseph Fielding Smith, who wrote several doctrinal books trying to make sense in literal terms, the teachings of the church.

The only other thing I can add is that top church leaders taught that resurrection was actually a priesthood ordinance. Right now, only Jesus has the keys to this power, so it cannot be performed by anyone in the church today. But when Christ comes back, he will bestow the keys of resurrection to the priesthood on earth, so worthy men will be able to resurrect their own families from the grave. I knew more than one Institute teacher who had heard this from apostles and believed it.

I would love to have references on these deeper (and bizarre) teachings. Here's a list of ones I have found and some I'm still looking for:

So are spirits and gods bloodless? - Otremer

Resurrected bodies do not have blood but instead rely on the spirit to stay alive. The Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith taught: "Our Father in heaven and our Savior and all those who have passed through the resurrection have physical bodies of flesh and bones, but their bodies are quickened by spirit and not by blood, hence they are spiritual bodies and not blood bodies. The immortal body is quickened by spirit, but the mortal body is quickened by blood... . Now when Adam was in the Garden of Eden, he was not subject to death. There was no blood in his body and he could have remained there forever. This is true of all other creations." (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, pp. 76-77).

If spirits, the resurrected and gods are bloodless, how do they maintain erections with which to produce spirit children? Are spirit bodies naturally erect all the time?

Obviously resurrected goddesses can get pregnant without blood in themselves or their gods, so did Adam and Eve procreate before being given blood bodies?

Same story but one small change. - Shamdango

A GA and I once discussed this very Mormon/unimportant but fascinating principle. It went similar to how Deconstructor tells it, with one small change.

According to the GA, resurrected bodies can and do eat food. It was the TYPE of food that helped usher in the fall.

Because Adam and Eve were accustomed to eating CELESTIAL food, the introduction of MORTAL food into their picture-perfect digestive tracts sealed the deal. Once the MORTAL food was digested by their bodies, it began the slow and annoying process that leads to aging and death.

While I was a TBM, I thought it interesting that according to the science of the times, experts weren't exactly sure why we age and die when, technically, we shouldn't - according to the experts who knew.

(Any experts know?)

The GA is dead now and the current manuals are still very silent about the whole thing. It was part of a fascinating conversation in what seems to be a completely different life and time for me.

The angels eat manna. Manna is white. - anon

Therefore, angel poo is white. If God eats manna too, then there's your answer.

Good answer! - Blashoodaloom

So what do they do with all the white angel poo?

And if resurrected bodies have no belly buttons, do they have assholes? What if some of the Gods are gay? Would they have assholes in that case?

There's more to this question - Sally

So God has a mouth and cannot take part in the simple pleasure of eating a delicious meal? HOWEVER, aren't we going to be procreating with that same incorruptible, Garden of Eden body? So the women are going to be popping out babies for eternity without benefit of bodily fluids? And they will be getting pregnant by sex without sperm? Or won't they have to do the nasty? Will your eternal spouse get you pregnant by just thinking about you? I'd be pretty ticked about that one! ! God sounds like a guy who knows how to take the joy out of just about everything. And for eternity no less......

Jesus ate bread after Ressurection. - ForgotMyNewName

I like the idea of white angel poop though lol.

Adam and Eve ate - AxelDC

Adam and Eve ate before they were kicked out of the Garden of Eden. They could eat from any fruit of any tree but the Tree of Knowledge of Good & Evil. We don't know how long they lived there, but we do know they lived there long enough that eating was pretty common.

According to Mormonism, they were immortal before being cast out, because once they ate of the Forbidden Fruit, then they would surely die. Therefore, with all that fruit being eaten, they must have had a pretty fiber-rich diet. They had to expel it somewhere and somehow.

Posing the possibility that God could be gay affirms gayness. - Blashoodaloom

Those with some measure of spiritual education contemplate that man's imagination of an anthropomorphic (human-like) deity originates with a lower consciousness perspective of reality - much like children believing in Santa Claus who rewards "good" kids and delivers coal lumps to "bad" kids. The idea that God has gender and copulates to create new mini-me-gods is just as infantile. That God has a sexual preference falls into the same kindergarten spiritual education promulgated by the only troo church. Humans of normal capabilities don't come close to even having the capacity to begin to start to understand who and/or what God is. Those who claim to know something about God are almost always buffoons unwittingly embarrassing themselves by exposing their gross ignorance. Having said that, there are a few individuals of advanced consciousness on Planet Earth who do indeed know something about spiritual realities, including what God is. (Hint: I doubt that any of these advanced spiritual teachers live in Utah.)

White angel poo is extremely useful as... - Nonnie

packing peanuts! A friend of mine refers to those white, flyaway, static-y nuisances as "angel shit."

Now that is terminology I can get behind! - flattopSF

Surely Elohim does not wipe his own butt. I wonder who does that? - mootman

LDS Apostle Mark E Peterson maybe can help? - Zeezrom

I personally do not agree with LDS Apostle Mark E Peterson, but I do wonder why he thought Blacks were going to be servants of the WHITE Mormon Gods like himself in the Mormon CK.

Race Problems--As They Affect The Church

LDS Apostle Mark E. Petersen, address given at the Convention of Teachers of Religion on the College Level, delivered at Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah, August 27, 1954.

“IN SPITE OF ALL HE DID IN THE PRE-EXISTENT LIFE, the Lord is willing, if the Negro accepts the gospel with real, sincere faith, and is really converted, to give him the blessings of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost. If that Negro is faithful all his days, he can and will enter the celestial kingdom. He will go there AS A SERVANT, but he will get celestial glory.”

One wonders what he thought servants were going to be needed for.

Just what the F did these MORMON GODMEN in the making think? Polygamous wives, Singles to be servants to them, Blacks to be servants to them.Its ridiculous beyond belief.

If God was a Scientologist, it would be CLEAR! - Skunk Puppet

Color Coded - Gay Philosopher

After researching the literature I've found the answer to your question:

1. Most often, dark brown; and

2. Moss green after drinking Gatorade.

And people don't think that philosophers are good for anything. Heh!

Other poo colors when you eat - Blashoodaloom

3. Red when you eat a few beets.

4. Black if your stomach, intestines or colon are bleeding, or if you are Catholic and believe that the communion wine literally transforms into the actual blood of Jesus, then your stool will be black. Blood produces black stool unless you have hemorrhoids and the blood does not get digested before exiting the system, in which case red is the color.

See what happens when charlatans preach revelations about stuff they know nothing about?

Joseph Smith specialized in making up crazy stories he was fairly confident nobody could particularly disprove. He did it over and over. He was not smart enough to cover his tracks at times, as evidenced by the nine different versions of the First Vision that were carelessly left lying around. Announcing to others that God and Jesus appeared to him and describing what they look like is a fairly safe bet as undisprovable tall tales go, since Joseph knew that God and Jesus had most likely never appeared to anyone anywhere anytime, so who could refute his story? If you think about it, Joseph's main goal was to "smith" as many women as he could. (My family has adopted the word "smith" to mean "have sexual intercourse with". "Smithed" means "f*cked" and "smithed up" means "f*cked up". "Smithbar" means smithed up beyond all recognition. I digress. Sorry.) Joseph's vision of heaven had him smithing praiseworthy women of good report without number, and you need a physical body to do that. He needed for his God to be an extension of his own hopes and dreams of eternal promiscuity.

Where are McKonkie and Nibley when you need them? - Irene

Add Monson and Packer, too. I mean, they're all made of shit, so they ought to be experts on the subject of shit.

I'm gunna get "Smith-ed" for this one.

Kolob vs Uranus - fragrance of heavenly methane - cricket

I know beyond a shado of a doubt that celestial flatulance will smell of rose petals.

Also wondering if Elohim or Eloher ever suffer constipation and if so what is their remedy?

White and delightsome. - Primus

Why other planets in our solar system?

01/19/2009 -3DGuy

Kolob Salvation Mormon Penis If god and jebus fly around the cosmos making planets for us to live on, why make so many others right here in our system that can't be used? Seems like I remember something about, "we shall go down for there is matter unorganized" or something like that.

Ok, sometime go out near a mountain range and just take a few minutes to understand the scope of what it would take to create the area that you can see. Now, think about the state you are in, the country, the continent, etc...

Now imagine foreman jebus telling the crew when they finally finished the planet, "great work all, now let's get to work on Jupiter."

So why all the other planets?

We talk about how men create God in their own image - Heresy

Giving Him their own prejudices, likes and dislikes, and prioritizing the doctrine according to the issues of their time. Then they are left defending that centuries later.

JS created a religious book given the known history of the Americas in his day - and now Mormons are stuck looking for non existent artifacts.

Men also create Gods that are mired in the science of the day. Unfortunately, science marches on and then their religion is left behind with some sticky problems.

Here is an excerpt from a great post by DrW on Post Mormon. He explains why Mormons have a worse science problem than other religions:

Five Mormon beliefs:

· According to Mormon belief, Kolob is either the planet on which God lives, or the star nearest to the planet Oliblish on which God lives. (If you can figure out for sure which is correct, please let me know.)

· God the Father is a glorified being of flesh and blood. "Thus, I, Abraham talked with the Lord, face to face, as one man talketh with another; and he told me of the works which his hands had made" (Abr. 3:11)

· God works only through natural laws: --- whatever it may be that is done by the power of God is in accordance with natural law. " J.F. Smith

· All spirit is matter. "All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes; We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter"(D&C 131:78).

· For Joseph [Smith] that which has no physical existence has no existence at all. (WJS, 60).

One astronomical fact:

· The closest star to our solar system is at 4.2 light years away. No star, including Kolob, is closer.

One natural law:

· Neither matter nor information can travel faster than the speed of light.

The logically fatal problem with "Kolob Cosmology":

* - If God accomplishes his work in accordance with natural law, as the Mormon prophets assure us that he does, then his speed of travel is limited to the speed of light. Nothing moves faster than the speed of light, not even information.

* - Kolob must be at least 4.2 light years away from earth. Therefore, a round trip from Kolob to Earth and back would require at least 8.4 years.

* - Prayers are comprised of information (we tell God our problems and wait for answers). Information cannot travel faster than light. Therefore, the process of sending, receiving, and answering prayers from Earth to Kolob and back is, you guessed it, 8.4 years. Anyone on Earth who thinks that they receive answers to prayers from God on Kolob in less than 8.4 years is certainly mistaken.

* - There was not enough time for the Angel Moroni to return to Kolob between his various visitations with Joseph Smith between 1823 and 1829. (Perhaps Moroni just hung out here on Earth and waited for Joseph to finish with the plates. If so, the fact that Joseph Smith just covered his face with his hat and didn't even look at the plates while translating them was no doubt was disturbing to Moroni.)

* - God the Father and Jesus Christ would have had to leave Kolob sometime in late 1815 (Earth time) in order to appear to Joseph Smith in 1820.

* = And, the conclusion least damaging to Mormonism among several possible damaging conclusions is: the Kolob concept is patently ridiculous.

If God created me in his own image how come I'm not invisible, too? - Skunk Puppet

Sunday School Lesson: Kolob

12/15/2008 - by SusieQ#1

Judging from what has been said on Recovery from Mormonism and what I have heard others say on line, the average [Mormon] is uninformed and uneducated about Kolob and it’s teachings. About all they know is that silly hymn: “If You Could Hie to Kolob,” [hie- meaning hasten] Apparently the plane is leaving at any moment!

Allrighty now: What did you learn in Sunday School about Kolob when studying the Book of Abraham?

Apparently, members do not read The Pearl of Great Price - at the back of The Book of Mormon behind the Doctrine and Covenants (Triple Combination) which is part of the Standard Works - or don’t recall what they read. Or, if they do read it, they have no idea what it means.

I had a little fun with this whole idea of Kolob, the Book of Abraham in The Pearl of Great Price:

Joseph Smith and Kolob with some help from Bruce R. McConkie in the book: “Mormon Doctrine.”

It is amazing what you can get from an Egyptian Funeral Scroll! :-)

Just concentrate hard enough, pray hard enough, have enough faith, and…. here we go!

Mormon Kolob Zone. Book of Abraham Chapter 3

2: “And I saw the STARS that they were very great and that one of them was nearest unto the throne of God; and there were many great ones which were near unto it:

3: And the Lord said unto me: These are the governing ones; and the name of the great one is Kolob, because it is near unto me, for I am the Lord thy God: I have set this one to govern all those which belong to the same order as that upon which thou standest.”

Verse 9 says: “And thus there shall be the reckoning of the time of one planet above another until thou comes nigh unto Kolob, which Kolob is after the reckoning of the Lord’s time, which Kolob is set night unto the throne of God, to govern all those planets which belong to the same order as that upon which thou standest.”

NOTE it is called a STAR (caps are mine) or is it?

Now note what Bruce R. McConkie says in “Mormon Doctrine” pg. 428. Ya gotta luv this guy! He says:

“Kolob means “the first creation.,”

It is the name of the PLANET (caps mine) “nearest to the celestial, or the residence of God.” it is “first in government, the last pertaining to the measurement of time…One day in Kolob is equal to a thousands years according to the measurement of this earth.”

Is it my imagination or does Joseph Smith not know the difference between a STAR and a PLANET and think they are interchangeable here?

Or do I need some special understanding from faith and prayer for the mental gymnastic to make a star and a planet be the same thing?

The whole thing is gobbiley-goop about astronomy ! Is this Science and Religion of the 1800’s merging?

But this does not deter the Mormon believers. They believe this is how God works as Joseph is claiming he is translating an Egyptian document by Abraham as he “talked with the Lord, face to face, as one talketh with another: and he told me of the works which his hands had made;”

Abraham - OK! So an Egyptian Funeral Scroll has hidden knowledge from Abraham! Now that is amazing!

The Kolob Theorem. Then it says; verse 13: “And he said unto me: This is Shinehah, which is the sun. And he said unto me: Kokob which is STAR, then he said unto me Olea, which is the moon. And he said unto me : Kokaubeam, which signifies stars, or all the great lights, which were in the firmament of heaven.”

TEACHER TO CLASS: OK, boys and girls, from now on, in class we will call the really big STAR, Kolob, the MOON - Olea and the really big flashy STARS: Kokaubeam and the SUN, Shinehah.

Now to help you remember, I have some sound-alike words for you. Remember that that the big STARS sound like: Cocoa-Beans, and the SUN is very easy because the sun does indeed Shinehah a lota, and the MOON’S name,Olea sounds like “ole” in Spanish which means bravo, and the biggest STAR, Kolob sounds like go - lob. Now here is where it gets tricky. Lob means: to droop heavily (but we won’t be going there) or it can mean lout: dull heavy person.

Always remember, boys and girls, that Joseph Smith Jr. was translating this document from what Abraham said to him face to face.

Naturally, the prophet Joseph would use words that he knew which would help us understand the special things Abraham wanted us to know.

So if the words sound a little funny, that is why. And, remember to pray to Heavenly Father tonight before go to bed and thank Him for this wonderful special teaching and ask Him to increase your faith to help you understand it.

verse 16 says: “if two things exist, and there be one above the other, there shall be greater things above them; therefore Kolob is the greatest of all the Kokaubeam that thou has seen, because it is nearest unto me.”

TRANSLATION: The really big lout, Kolob is the greatest of all the Cocoa Beans.

Okay, lets give Joseph an award for some esoteric hidden teachings here like all kinds of other “teachers” of enlightenment.

You have to admit, this is clever stuff for the times. He managed to throw in, what some would classify now days as “New Age” teachings right into the Book of Abraham!

Time to move the Book of Abraham to the NEW AGE section of the book shelf at the book stores!

It’s my view that kolob was a joke by Joseph Smith Jr. He got the last laugh. He liked to play with words, and as in Joseph’s time standard spelling did not exist, came up with kolob — bollock spelled backwards!

Gospel Scholar Question: Does resurrection restore virginity?

12/14/2008 - by Blashoodaloom

On the Morning of the First Resurrection, when all those whose physical tabernacles are literally reconstituted into perfect form (from the dust of the earth -- including cremation ashes, maggot poop, etc.), will everyone automatically regain sexual virgin status?

To be a little more specific, will female hymen tissue be restored to pre-coital (or pre-other) condition? For males, will all of the notches on their belts be removed? Will the Silent Note Takers reset all the boys' LFE counters to zero? (Little Factory Ejaxcercise)

Does anyone know if Bruce R. McConkie ever tackled these important questions? (They ARE legitimate questions. When one makes the claim that God literally occupies a physical human body, and that after death we earthlings will resurrect into literal physicality, one must acknowledge that questions will arise.)

Pre-circumcision of Jewish men by Leonard

If all things are restored, that will mean that the pre-circumcision status will be restored, too. What happens to all the Jewish men, from Abraham throughout the spectrum of time?

The Mormon Heaven-- Almost No One Goes There (Warning, Contains Frank Sexual Comments )

08/22/2008 - by MadeGuy from Recovery from Mormonism

After giving it some thought, it became evident that the Mormon heaven is a place where virtually no one can go. This ‘place’ called heaven stands as a symbol of the impossible expectations put on Mormons—expectations that almost no one can fully meet.

One of the basic teachings of the church is of the so-called ‘war in Heaven‘. As a result of this war, one third of the spirits who lived in heaven were evicted, and told never to return. Logically, one has to assume that if war in Heaven happened once, it could happen again. Unlike the flood of Noah, a tactic which God promised never to use again, giving the rainbow as a reminder of his promise, no promise was given regarding another war in Heaven. So, after a life of obedience, sacrifice, and busting our tails to get to church on time, we might make it to the celestial kingdom, just when another war is threatening to break out.

Throughout the eternities, heaven may have experienced a series of wars, only one of which we’ve been told about. We can assume, based on available information, that the ratio of winners to loser is approximately two to one. This means that each time there is a war in heaven, one third of those remaining from the previous war are permanently expelled. Eventually, no one would be left except those who agree completely with God’s agenda, ultimately leaving only God. This seems to be where we are right now.

The winners of each round get to come to Earth, a beautiful place loaded with all manner of exotic temptations. The losers get to come to Earth too, but without bodies, to tempt and possess the winners, trying to get us to commit every sin imaginable. (Babies and children get a free pass back to heaven where they stay until the next war, when they stand a one in three chance of being tossed out again.) In order to get back to heaven, the winners must resist all temptations, sometimes playfully referred to as ‘the fiery darts of the adversary,’ follow all of God’s commandments, love everyone, and join the Mormon Church. The point system God uses is never revealed, so we don’t know where we stand, how we’re doing, or how much shit we can get away with.

On top of all this, you only get one chance to get it right. Screw up, and you’re relegated to an inferior universe forever. For lots of reasons, winning the game is nearly impossible. For example, God endows us with lots of hormones, more than we need really. These raging hormones make young people so horny they can’t see straight, but they’re expressly forbidden to touch each other. Sex, we are taught, is a sin like unto murder, but instead of ending a life, it creates a new one. The guilt heaped on someone who has succumbed to their sexual urge, stays with a person for years, serves no purpose, and reduces the quality of one’s life.

Even if we don’t succumb to temptation, and only feel lust for that hot babe at the convenience store, we’re told we’ve committed adultery in our heart. We must overcome our lust to get to heaven, where sex is allowed, but since we’ve overcome that urge, by the time we get there we don’t want it anymore. We’re can have sex in marriage, but only within the bounds set by impotent old men, so oral sex is out of the question, it’s just too much fun.

The elect who join the Mormon Church are taught that our goal is the celestial kingdom. Early in one’s Mormon experience there may be great hope, but we eventually find the requirements for getting there so numerous and difficult that the goal seems unattainable. For example the following statement by Brigham Young illustrates how futile the program is: “The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy. Others attain unto a glory and may even be permitted to come into the presence of the Father and the Son; but they cannot reign as kings in glory, because they had blessing offered unto them, and they refused to accept them.” (Brigham Young, J.D. Vol. 11, p. 266)

That leaves out pretty much everyone. Divide the number of people who have entered into polygamy by the total number of humans who have ever lived, and you see how futile the program is.

The whole thing is a cosmic joke. If there are wars in heaven, why do we want to go there? We have wars right here. To accept the Mormon plan means accepting the fact that there is no place in the universe that is free of war. I just can’t accept that.

Laws of Ther-MO-dynamics

04/11/2008 - by cricket and Sandie from Recovery from Mormonism


1. (from the Reformed Egytpian, therme, meaning "heat in the bosom" and, dunamis, meaning "power in the priesthood") is a splinter group of philosophy and of religion that reveals the effects of changes in doctrine, peer pressure, and volume of hot air at the general conference scale by analyzing the collective motion of their particles of faith using statistics.

2. The total entropy of any isolated cult system tends to increase over time, approaching a maximum value as evidenced by the aging gero-theocracy of its governing body.

3. The value of a cult system can be taken as zero as the absolute value of its foundation approaches zero.

Quote about Ther-MO-dynamics by Boyd K Packer:

"Ther-MO-dynamics is a faith promoting subject. The first time you go through it, you don't understand it at all. The second time you go through it, you think you understand it, except for one or two small points. The third time you go through it, you know you don't understand it, but by that time you are so used to it, it doesn't bother you any more. The more I bear my testimony of Ther-MO-dynamics in General Conference the truer it becomes."

Dogs - Were poodles, black labradors and bulldogs less valiant in the pre-existence?

03/11/2008 - by Grey Matter and others from Recovery from Mormonism

Were poodles, black labradors and bulldogs less valiant in the pre-existence?

I was just wondering.

You know, the "wooly hair", "black skin" (or fur coat), and "flat nose".

Also, if a black lab mated with a golden retriever or a "white and delightsome" labrador, would it be death on the spot for both of them?

Does the mormon church have a doctrine, from the mouths of it's prophets on this subject?

I have an apricot poodle - by kitschy

I think it's Jewish, one of the Chosen. And my lab is a chocolate, definitely of the lamanite variety. They were extra special in the preexistence.

Only wolves were valient - by Jonny the Smoke

Because they got bodies and came to earth. All other dog breeds came from wolves so it makes sense to think that the wolves were on Jesus's side in the beginning! They can even "shake" hands if trained. Can you say "sure sign of the nail"?!

And the persicution of the wolves proves its true. What other breed has been persecuted as much? Killed to the brink of extinction, depicted as werewolves in the movies. Actually, I think this proves that wolves are Mormons too.

Will sperm be resurrected?

10/02/2007 - by racer and others

I was always taught that all living things will be resurrected. Mormon doctrine even teaches the Earth has a spirit and will be resurrected.

So if all living things have a spirit, what about sperm cells? Everyday billions of sperm are ejaculated all over the world. Aside from the few who make it to the egg, the rest die. According to Mormon Doctrine we would have to assume that all sperm cells that have been ejaculated since the dawn of time will be resurrected.

Same with yeast infections. Candida bacteria is a living multiplying organism, so they will be perfected in the next life as well.

What about viruses? They are living things. I guess we can expect AIDS and Influenza to be perfected and resurrected as well.

I wonder what degrees of glory these items will inherit?

Welcome to the Celestial Kingdom where everything is oozing with bacteria, viruses, and sperm which grossly outnumber the human population of the after life.

Of course you know that every sperm is sacred - brian-the-christ

And every sperm is great, if a sperm is wasted, God gets quite irate.

Hindu, Taoist, Mormon, spill theirs just anywhere,
But God loves those who treat their Semen with more care.

Yeah. There are going to be lots of disgusting heaps of "living tissue" that will be resurrected. The CK will be a veritable cesspool of resurrected beings.

and the Universe song just kills me!

Whenever life gets you down, Mrs. Brown, and things seem hard or tough.
and people are stupid, obnoxious or daft,
and you feel that you've had quite enouuuuuuuuugh...

Just re-member that your standing on a planet that's evolvng,
and revolving at nine hundred miles an hour...
That's orbiting at ninety miles a second, so it's reckoned,
the sun that is the source of all our power.
The sun and you and me, and all the stars that we can see,
are moving at a million miles a day.
in an outer spiral-arm at forty thousand miles an hour
of the galaxy we call the Milky Way.

Our galaxy itself contains a hundred billion stars,
it's a hundred thousand lightyears side to side.
It bulges in the middle, sixteen thousand lightyears thick,
but out by us it's just three thousand lightyears wide.
We're thirty thousand lightyears from galactic central point,
we go 'round every two hundred million years.
And our galaxy is only one of millions of billions,
in this amazing and expanding universe.

The universe itself keeps on expanding and expanding,
in all of the directions it can whiz.
As fast as it can go, that's the speed of light you know;
twelve million miles a minute, that's the fastest speed there is.
So remember when your feeling very small and insecure,
how amazingly unlikely is your birth,
and pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space,
'cause there's bugger-all down here on earth!

Well... - Stray Mutt

...each spermatozoon and each ovum have half a spirit, so all those spermatozoa and ova will be only half ressurected.

Uh-oh... a problem arises... (I hope God thought of this) - ZelphRules

When we are resurrected, we will be perfected bodies of "flesh and bone", and not "flesh and blood".

So where will the gazillions of resurrected malaria causing parasites live?

I assume that the gazillions of resurrected head lice can still live in my perfect resurrected hair, and the gazillions of resurrected tape worms can still live in my resurrected bowels, but if we are perfect bodies of flesh and bone with no blood, what will become of all those poor parasites?

What about liposuction? - Herbicola

So what about liposuction? When liposuction is performed a lot of fat is removed. But the fat itself is stored in little cells. So the living cells that are removed will then be resurrected?

So when a person is resurrected, will they be resurrected with their fat cells back inside them? Or will the fat be resurrected seperately, in some sort of celestial doggie bag?

And what about tumors? Those are composed of living cells. Will that malignant melanoma I had removed from my back be resurrected? I can't imagine it going to the celestial kingdom. Does cancer go to the telestial kingdom?

I guess I won't be going to the celestial kingdom, what with being an apostate and all. Does that mean I'll be spending eternity in the telestial kingdom with that ugly tumorous mole I had removed from my back?

All things lost will be restored unto you. - Stray Mutt

Missing hair, teeth, limbs, organs... and fat cells.

Do they glue the baby teeth to one side of the adult ones? - brian-the-christ

I should be able to eat my sandwiches much faster with two rows of uppers and lowers in the CK.

Yes it will. - brefots

And so will our pooh, half of it are dead bacterias that needs to be resurrected and cleansed so that they can be in the presense of our creator. The entire earth would collapse under the sheer wight of all the resurrected bodies but god will transform earth to a crystal so there's no worries.

BYU Scientists Convert Matter into Mormonism

BYU matter into Mormonism.
Click image for the story

Mormon Astronomy 101

01/17/2007 - from Recovery from Mormonism

So Pluto is a dwarf planet? what does that make Kolob? - by Logic

Kind of like Mormonism is a dwarf religion? - by Skunk Puppet

Why a BLACK HOLE of course! Just like the life sucking cult-founder that spawned the insipid gibberish! - by Enigma

Or God's hairball. - by saucie the elect of gawd

When astronomers discover Kolob I hope they send a rover there. Should be interesting. - by BlottoSunday

Angel Questions - The Sword

03/12/2006 - Grey Matter from Recovery from Mormonism

I hope you don't mind, but I'm trying to figure out this angel business. And it's just a puzzle to me.

You know, Joseph told the tale of the angel with the drawn sword who visited Joseph and threatened to murder him, unless Joseph agreed to obey God's commanded to persaude a 12 year-old girl, Mary Elizabeth Rollins Lightner, to be his first polygamous wife so that he could rape the little girl.

Sometimes, the best way to understand things is to ask questions. So, if it's okay with my fellow posters, I'd like to begin.

Q1. What kind of sword was the angel carrying? Was it a:

1. butterfly sword
2. cutlass
3. mortuary sword
4. dirk
5. rapier
6. sabre
7. claymore
8. scimitar
9. other

According to wikipedia, "Many swords in mythology, literature and history are named by their wielders or by the person who makes them."

For example:

1. The sword in the stone (King Arthur's)
2. Excalibar (King Arthurs - as above)
3. Galatine - (Sir Gawain's)
4. Green Destiny Sword - (Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon)
5. Master Sword (Nintendo game)

Did the angel tell Joseph what kind of sword he was going to kill him with?

I'm just trying to figure it out. I mean, the more detail we get on angel's visit, the better. Right? Sometimes, it's the little details that can help to confirm the facts. Just think about how small DNA is, and yet how powerful.

Besides, if we manage to identify the sword, and FARMS can link that particular sword to an episode in history, then it will confirm Joseph's story beyond any doubt, won't it?

Q. What colour was the angel’s hair?

This can be quite important because, in speaking of another angel visit, Joseph said:

“Many true things were spoken by this [angel], and many things that were false. How, it may be asked, was this known to be a bad angel? By the [sandy] color of his Hair...” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith)

Now, if there is some precise detail on the angel’s hair colour, this could confirm if the Angel was a good egg or a bad egg.

Let’s think.

1. Was the hair colour blonde? Did anyone check the hair roots of the angel? You see, the angel could have been a peroxide blonde. Sometimes, such people forget to apply the bleach on a regular basis. So it could be that the roots were actually sandy, if which case, the angel’s cover would have been blown. Did Joseph ask to check the roots? Do we know?

2. Was the hair colour blue? Very important. If so, then this impostor was just another member of the “blue rinse brigade”. We see many of these in the UK. They are also known as coffin dodgers. The point is, that if the angel was just a blue rinser, it’s unlikely that he could have slain Joseph with his drawn sword, because trying to swing it may have brought on a coronary attack. If Joseph had notice blue hair, he could have called the angel’s bluff. Oh, but then he would have had to invent another tale to justify his attempted rape of a little girl.

3. Was the hair “woolly and black”, or curly like a person of African descent? We know that the mormon prophets, seers and revelators have prevented those of African descent from holding the priesthood. Therefore, if the angel was of African descent, he must have been a priesthood impostor, and Joseph could have ignored threat to slice his entrails to pieces. Plus, an African angel would not have been allowed to give a white and delightsome guy an orders, because all Africans are meant to be slaves or servants, not bosses. If the white and delightsome God let’s them into heaven, it will only be so that they can serve all the righteous mormon folks. See:

Also see:

4. Was the hair of the angel in a Mohican style, and was the angel wearing any ironmongery on his face. If so, this could suggest that the angel was only a vision of a future punk rocker. In this situation, Joseph could have taken some medication or sobered up, and the angel would have went away.

If only we could get some detail on this angel. The information would help to clear up any doubts in the fair minds of the honest enquirers.

Oh, well. If you have any information on the angel’s hair colour, please let me know. And remember, an angel with sandy coloured hair is a bad egg.

The Plan of Salvation - The Pre-Existence

November 28, 2005 by Moroni Marten


Beyond the outer reaches of space near the planet Kolob, the great Throne of God floats peacefully upon a magnificent cloud. There, the great God, Eloheim, and his harem of wives spend their eternity birthing spirit children.




Eloheim became a God billions of years ago. He started as but a man living an existence upon an earth. There he learned of the gospel of His God and was obedient to His teachings and found the secret codes. As he grew he married many women within the priesthood and made them his eternal wives. After his death and resurrection, he progressed to Godhood and was awarded by His God His own universe. There He organized matter into planets and stars and begat billions of spirit children with His thousands of wives.




But Eloheim soon found that not all was well in His household of billions. His spirit children all had different personalities. Some were quickly obedient to His teachings, while others reluctantly followed with disregard. A few had the spirit of contention and disobedience. As his family grew, so did the number of discontents. Although he punished them as he saw fit, an uprising was brewing, and He knew it.



During a particular family council meeting, Eloheim announced a new directive that met with steep opposition. He told His multitude of spirit children that they will all be forced to live on a world He had created to be tested to see if they can find the secret codes in order to make it back to the Celestial Realm and into His presence again. But He told them that they must have their memories erased and be tormented by hoards of evil spirits trying to deceive them. They must somehow find the secret codes through all the confusing and maddening turmoil in order to make it back. Eloheim told the spirits that only a very few would make it back and that most would be damned from his presence forever.




Of course, many of His spirit children were upset and began to murmur against their father. One of the oldest children of Elohiem, Lucifer, was respected by many of the other children as a leader. He proposed a different plan that would assure that all of his brothers and sisters would make it back to the Celestial Realm. He convinced many of his siblings to support his plan.




Lucifer's proposal was quickly dismissed by Eloheim. In a state of anger and wrath, Eloheim decided to make an example of Lucifer by having him thrown from the Throne of God and into outer darkness where he would live in spiritual hell for the rest of eternity.




But Eloheim miscalculated Lucifer's influence. Soon great multitudes of His children began to speak against Him – billions of them. Eloheim had no choice but to track down the dissenters and subject them to the same fate as their older brother, Lucifer. One by one he found the supporters of Lucifer and had them spiritually executed.




In the end, Eloheim spiritually executed over 30 billion of His spirit children. He gathered his remaining 60 billion children to another family council meeting and explained to them the seriousness of disobeying Him.


Eloheim divided his remaining children into different classes based upon their loyalty and obedience to Him. Some of His children who didn't follow Lucifer but wavered for a time in their devotion to their father were punished by being sent to a disadvantaged area of an earth where finding the secret codes would be very difficult. He also gave them afflictions such as diseases, poverty, hunger, and retardation. He gave them titles such as Chinese and Africans.




Those of His children who were unwaveringly loyal and true to their father were rewarded with being sent to an area of a planet that was blessed with comforts and plenty. There, the secret codes would be easier to find. He blessed them with better health, abundance, and intelligence. He gave them title of Caucasian Americans. But he also warned them that even with the advantages, only a few of them would find the necessary secret codes to be able to return back to Him.


Although many of the Mothers in Heaven objected to Eloheim's tough plan, He told them it was necessary to weed out the weak and to toughen the strong. Only the few who make it back will be able to be worthy to progress to Godhood and become what He Himself has become.

The End


Research and development in heaven

09/15/2005 - 3Dguy and others from Recovery from Mormonism

"An Angel of God Stood by him (Joseph Smith) with a drawn Sword and told him he should be slain & Cut off from the Earth and the kingdom of God if he did not obey that Law (of polygamy). George Q Cannon was of the same opinion, that a man must have more then one wife at a time in order to obey that Law." - Prophet Wilford Woodruff, Wilford Woordruff's Journal, Vol. 8, p.235

So who does god have working in his weapons development department up there? I was just reading about how Joseph Smith really didn't want to have any more wives but along came the angel with a sword. I don't know why it never occured to me, but why would an angel need a sword? Don't they have any better weapons? I wonder if in visions 6,000 years ago if angels showed up with pointy sticks. The whole concept is kind of silly to me. As if an angel by itself isn't threatening enough right? That's like me saying I ran into a grizzly bear in my kitchen, and guess what he had....A 357 MAGNUM! Wow, then I was really scared!

I always thought they used lightning bolts or something likle that. - Dave The Atheist

Not just a sword, dude -- a FLAMING sword. Do you have any idea the number of heavenly-host-hours it took to make a noncombustible object like a sword burn with sufficient flaming effect to make a guy do something that otherwise repulses him? That's a mighty slick trick. - Stray Mutt

No No NO! "Flaming Sword" was the best JS could do to describe a lightsabre! That's pretty advanced I'd say! can deflect lazer guns and cut through anything even solid steel. - Free to be Me

Actually according to Advanced Dungeons and Dragons, a flaming sword is usually only a +2 weapon which is not all that great as compared to a Holy Avenger! - Donatello di Vinci

I thought JS's father in heaven to be Darth Vader, which explains the flaming sword too. - Sans Nom

What Joseph got right and wrong about space

03/27/2004 - Weeder

The main gist of Joseph Smith's "Astronomy" comes from his 65 uncompleted book entitled "Egyptian Alphabet and Grammar Book". Joseph refered to this book three times in the "History of the Church".

What Joseph got amazingly correct (in fact this is the most impressive of Joseph's "inspirations" for me) was the claim that suns (some very large ones) orbited around each other. In Joseph's day this was not a thing scientists (even astronomers) thought possible. The "Steady State Theory" was very much the going thing ... indeed, the only thing going during Joseph's life. Concepts such as "galexies" just hadn't yet entered into the minds of Joseph's day ... yet the Egyptian Alphabet & Grammar Book was full of such notions (and I think your EQ pres misquoted Joseph on a few points in that matter).

What Joseph (not Brigham) got amazingly wrong (especially for being a "man of god, seer and revelator, etc.) was the notion that there were inhabitants on the Moon (tall "Quaker" like people according to Oliver B. Huntington's account of this). What I didn't realize, till just a month ago, was that Joseph himself, on this matter was a dupe of someone else's scam ... or more correctly -- practicle joke. Seems just a few short months before Bro. Huntington hears Joseph spew his drivel about quaker moon dwellers, Joseph MUST have read a very popular article that came out in a New York City paper that captured the nation's attention of Joseph's day ... a hoax, a supposedly "scientific" announcement of great significance. The largest telescopes of the day had seen moon dwellers, flora and fauna of curious description on the moon !!! This was early 1835 ... and as I said, a couple months later Joseph was talking about moon-quakers ... just about the time the paper was printing that it was all a hoax.

If you want to read a very good article about this hoax see the article: "Life on the Moon" in the latest edition of "The Wilson Quarterly"

This whopper was one of Joe's best Freudian slips. Can you think of a better phallic symbol than a flaming sword. I'll bet he could feel the burning clear down in his cherry picker. - Pioneer Stock

Einstein's Kolobian theory of Special Relativity

03/18/2004 - Mathew

As you probably are aware, Einstein's theory of Special Relativity states that as an object's velocity approaches the velocity of light, time begins to dilate, or slow down. It's all relative though. Here's a much famed example: you have a set of twins; one stays on earth and the other leaves on a rocktship [traveling at a significant percentage of the velocity of light.] From the point of view of the twin in space, he was only gone for a few years, but when he returns, his twin is long dead and it is apparent that many more years elapsed on earth. (Please click and scroll about 1/3 the way down to "Time Dilation").

I took the time dilation equation from the theory of Special Relativity and I made udjustments to the independent variable "v" until 1 Kolobian day equaled 1000 earth years.

1 Kolobian day is equal to 365,250 Earth days [i.e., 1,000 Earth years].

With that said, here is some worthless FYI:

If this time dilation is entirely due to Einstein's Theory of Special Relativity, then Kolob's velocity (relative to earth) is approximately 185,999.999999302 miles per second [or 299,999.999998874 kilometers per second for you metric-system folk ;)]

[Relative to Earth] Kolob is traveling appoximately 99.999999999624731182795698924731% the velocity of light.:)


Any physicist will tell you that such a velocity requires a vast amount of energy that is presently unheard of with today's technology. Obviously, God must be using the same endless supply of bullshit that the church uses as energy to keep Kolob moving at such a speed.

I must apologize, I'm surprised that the Lord hasn't struck me down with lightning for teaching false doctrine. My previous calculations for the Kolobian Day-Earth Day ratio was off by 233 years! I hope you all can forgive me. ;)


Below are my new calculations regarding Kolob's velocity (relative to Earth):

185,999.9999993028880952669065 miles per second (or 299,999.99999887562596010791370968 kilometers per second.)

So, [relative to Earth] Kolob is moving at 99.999999999625208653369304569892% the velocity of light.


The above calculations were arrived at using the rough estimate of 186,000 miles per second as c (i.e., the velocity of light). I converted miles per second to kilometers per second by applying the above percentage rate to the rough estimate of 300,000 kilometers per second as c.

Although my calculations may not be 100% precise, I am confident they are accurate (i.e., rather than an error of 233 years, I estimate the new calculations have an error no greater than 3/1000 of a second.)

Although my postings are done tongue-in-cheek, the numbers in them are not made up; they were completely derived using the [attached] equation, where:

t' is the passage of time as observed from the stationary frame (i.e., 1000 years on Earth.)

t is the passage of time as observed from the moving frame (i.e., 1 day on Kolob.)

v is the velocity at which the moving frame is travelling (i.e., 185,999.9999993028880952669065 miles per second.)

c is the velocity of light (i.e., 186,000 miles per second.)

I initially tried plugging in the information into an Excel worksheet, but even Excel did not utilize enough decimal places (it only went to the 11th decimal place or so.) This limit in Excel makes a significant difference; it is why my first calculations had an error or 233 years. So I tried using the calculator that comes with Windows. I was able to take the value out to 24 decimal places (which was adequate enough for me (i.e., it significantly reduced my error of 233 years down to about 3/1000 of a second.)

Kolob - Notes from way out there

12/25/2004 - Mathew et al

I especially got a chuckle at the seminary class's list of favorite hymns (see below). Just recently, I realized why so many people like that hymn (myself included; mind you that I appreciate the music only, as it is not of LDS origin in any way, shape, or form.) They like it because of the music that is used. Phelps merely wrote text and picked a tune.

The old LDS hymn book has an entirely different tune for "If You Could Hie To Kolob." I think it's a lame tune. See the following:

Personally I think "The Brethren" realized how lame some of the music was for many of the hymns. When they re-did the hymn book, they altered many of the tunes with more "catchy" tunes, or as in the case of "If You Could Hie To Kolob," they used an excellent, IMHO, Ralph Vaughn Williams tune and butchered it with Phelps' Kolob lyrics. The Ralph Vaughn Williams tune tends to be very emotionally stirring, whereas the original tune sucks. And we know that "stirred emotions" = "the spirit." So, "The Brethren" know that if they can cause people to experience stirred emotions, they will think it's the HG telling them of truth (e.g., "If You Could Hie To Kolob" must be a true song because I "felt the spirit" as I sing/listen to it, or anything along those lines.)


When my husband and I first moved to Provo, we were unfamiliar with the names of the various local stakes, but we became better educated during a visit to the Provo Temple. We had come to do some sealings, as had a group from Kolob Stake. One temple worker asked my husband, “Are you from Kolob?” He innocently replied, “No, but I’m working on it.” - Denise Turner, Payson, Utah - “Mirthright,” Ensign, June 1976, 79

The third chapter of the book of Abraham offers a remarkable picture of what might be termed “Abrahamic astronomy.” (Abr. 3:1–17.) The prophet is shown various features of the heavens, including even the great astronomical body Kolob, which “is set nigh unto the throne of God.” (Abr. 3:9.) -Daniel C. Peterson, “News from Antiquity,” Ensign, Jan. 1994, 16


Donnell Hunter, “Missionary,” "Ensign, Aug. 1981, 5"

Like Samuel loaned then given back, my son,
I thank our Father for these first few years,
knowing even now when you return
your stay will not be long until you range
in wider orbits chosen for your own,
intersecting Kolob in your flight.
Yet, even if I could, I would not change
the plan. What you see at parting, these tears
I brush back from my cheek, are tears of joy.
We taught each other: surely parents learn
much more than they can ever teach a boy.
Eternal tones of Love, familiar voices,
call us gently somewhere from the darkness,
whispering through an ancient temple night.

“In the time of the apostasy in Kirtland … the Spirit of God said to me, ‘You choose a partner and go straight to Fox Islands.’ Well, I knew no more what was on Fox Islands than what was on Kolob. But the Lord told me to go, and I went." - Wilford Woodruff - Deseret Weekly, 7 Nov. 1896, p. 643.


Penelope Moody Allen, “Light (After D&C 88:7–13),” Ensign, July 1991, 56

Light sprays swirling stars through black of night,
Surges incandescent nebular eddies,
Splashes constellations on our sight,
We who walk a spinning mote that steadies
Itself by Kolob’s star in tethered flight.

10 Favorite Hymns of Pleasant Grove Seminary Students - "New Era, Jan. 2000, 12"

• The Spirit of God

• A Poor Wayfaring Man of Grief

• Praise to the Man

• I Stand All Amazed

• How Great Thou Art

• If You Could Hie to Kolob

• Called to Serve

• True to the Faith

• We Thank Thee, O God, for a Prophet

• Come, Come, Ye Saints

"Retire to your beds early, that you may be refreshed, and arise early again, and so continue until times and seasons are changed; or, finally, I say unto you, let the same process be continued from day to day, until you arrive unto one of the days of Kolob (where day is 1000 of our years), the planet nearest unto the habitation of the Eternal Father." - Brigham Young - “Proclamation: For a Day of Praise and Thanksgiving for the Territory of Utah,” "Ensign, Nov. 1971, 40"

“FYI: For Your Info,” New Era, Apr. 1993, 34

It was 100 years ago this month that the Salt Lake Temple was dedicated. Since then, it has become a symbol of eternal happiness for many people. We thought you might like ot know a few interesting facts.

Saturn Stones are located directly below the parapet on each side of the six towers. They represent Kolob, the dwelling place of God.

Fear and wonder

12/23/2004 - Wayne Wilson - Humanists of Utah

Imagine our ancestors sometime between 30,000 and 200,000 years ago gazing at the sky considering the solstice. Then, as now, there must have been two basic approaches to nature: fear and wonder.

Unfortunately, fear is the stronger emotion. Its legacies include myth, superstition, religion and authoritarian governments and rulers.

Those who stood in wonder were able, through empirical observations, to explain the natural phenomenon of the solstice. The progeny of wonder are the arts, the sciences and the humanities.

It is unlikely that most people approach the unknown exclusively with either fear or wonder. We all have different mixtures of these two basic emotions. Our challenge is to try to suppress the fears, and then experience and explain the wonders.

Cain survived the Great Flood - High Tower of Babel

08/29/2004 - anon

One other one I thought you might find interesting. The theory that Cain still roams the earth. Problem: How did he survive the flood?

Answer 1- He was fed through a hole in the bottom of Noahs ark like one of the animals.

Answer 2- He was reverse translated. Just like the people in the city of Enoch were translated, God translates evil people to live forever in their sins.

And they were completely serious telling me this.

Here is one for your that I heard. The tower of babel was so high that if you dropped a brick from the top it would take a full day for it to fall to the ground. Remember the earth was 90 times larger than it is now. Using the laws of physics we have been able to calculate using the gravitational constant that the base of the tower of babel was approximagely the size of the land mass of the United States extending into the outer atmosphere. Upon asking where all the material came from to build such an impossible structure, the mormon related well what do you think happened to the 90 percent of the earth it was probably used in making the tower of babel.

What an amazing science?

Great Glass Elevator to Celestial Kingdom

07/11/2004 - Rex

You know if God was not dead, you guys would be in deep trouble. But don't worry, the Celestial Kingdom was going to be ridiculously crowded anyway. Joseph Smith said all children who die before the age of 8 go straight to the highest heaven.

Well, damn if infant mortality worldwide is 50% from malnutrition. Five out of ten kids born - boom, take the Great Glass Elevator right to Holy McDonald's Play Place.

I see heaven as an annoying place of too many screeching kids, dried up Primary teachers and Allah-loving suicide bombers. I hope my heavenly mansion has thick friggin' walls to keep out the din.

Mormons Believe in Hollow Earth Theory?

06/13/2004 - anonymous

"A belief that the Earth is hollow and inhabited within has caused a Provo, Utah man to plan an expedition to the North Pole and possibly to the Earth's interior..."

"Volume 8, Number 48
December 17, 2003
Editor: Joseph Trainor
UFO Information


Without reproducing the entire article, here are some of the relevant highlights.

"According to a survey by LDS author R. Clayton Brough, four percent of the LDS population believes in the hollow Earth theory and that it is a probable explanation for the location of the Ten Lost Tribes."

"According to Cluff, there are people in the government who are aware of the opening to the Inner Earth but who have tried to keep this knowledge from the public. 'We have indications that the U.S. military does know about it,' he said."

"Discovering the Inner Earth will set off a new age and a revolution in education and all aspects of society, Cluff said."

"Cluff [expedition leader] said he has written about religious beliefs that he expects to be proven when he goes on the expedition. One of the beliefs is that the Inner Earth is inhabited by the throne of King David from the Bible and that the political Kingdom of God is located there. He also believes that the Lost Garden of Eden is in the hollowed Earth, and its inhabitants are friendly, highly civilized and members of the Ten Lost Tribes."

"Cluff also said the inner sun, which is located in the (skies of the) Inner Earth, is the throne of Jehovah and a paradise for the dead.

"Other beliefs he said he hopes to prove include that UFOs originate in the Inner Earth, and the solar wind and the inner sun cause the Northern Lights "


The Great Salt Lake seems to have attracted many faith promoting rumours. Note the Source:

06/11/2004 submitted by CX

Cain and Bigfoot

05/30/2004 - Large Feet

On the sad character Cain, an interesting story comes to us from Lycurgus A. Wilson's book on the life of David W. Patten. From the book I quote an extract from a letter by Abraham O. Smoot giving his recollection of David Pattern's account of meeting "a very remarkable person who had represented himself as being Cain."

"As I was riding along the road on my mule I suddenly noticed a very strange personage walking beside me.... His head was about even with my shoulders as I sat in my saddle. He wore no clothing, but was covered with hair. His skin was very dark. I asked him where he dwelt and he replied that he had no home, that he was a wanderer in the earth and traveled to and fro. He said he was a very miserable creature, that he had earnestly sought death during his sojourn upon the earth, but that he could not die, and his mission was to destroy the souls of men. About the time he expressed himself thus, I rebuked him in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by virtue of the Holy Priesthood, and commanded him to go hence, and he immediately departed out of my sight...." (Lycurgus A. Wilson, Life of David W. Patten [Salt Lake City: Deseret News, 1900], p. 50., as quoted by Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness [Salt Lake City, Bookcraft, Inc.]18th printing 1991 p.p. 127-128.)

The Mormon version of the atonement doesn't make sense

02/26/2004 - Deconstructor

Stray Mutt said something that deserves deeper exploration. Mutt questioned the whole foundation of the Mormon version of the atonement because God can't seem to forgive on his own.

Mormonism says that God is bound by justice and cannot "save us in our sins." So Jesus comes on the scene and suffers for our sins, paying the debt, so God will let us into heaven. Mormon Church leaders often use the analogy of someone paying your financial debts as a simlitude for Christ's so-called atonement.

From Apostle Boyd K. Packer's talk, "The Mediator:"

"The mediator turned then to the debtor. “If I pay your debt, will you accept me as your creditor?”

“Oh yes, yes,” cried the debtor. “You save me from prison and show mercy to me.”

“Then,” said the benefactor, “you will pay the debt to me and I will set the terms. It will not be easy, but it will be possible. I will provide a way. You need not go to prison.”


But this begs a larger question. Why can't the Mormon God just forgive us outright? Why MUST he make someone "pay" for disobeying him? If God is so keen on justice, then how just is it that someone else suffers for my acts? If my brother kills someone, is it just that I suffer his sentence for murder, instead of him?

There are many problems with this debtor metaphor. For starters, it treats financial debt and moral debt the same way. A creditor doesn't really care who pays him back as long as he gets his money. But moral debt doesn't work that way. For example, If A harms B, it accomplishes no moral justice, except in a sick way, to lock up C and have A do whatever C asks.

Furthermore, this cockeyed system of moral justice treats all debts the same. Everyone is supposed to believe in Jesus, repent, keep the commandments and live a Christ-like life. But what if you had almost nothing to repent from -- no debt -- to start with? You're supposed to spend your life making payments anyway -- the same payments as someone who had a much much greater debt.

And then there's the whole issue of a debt being paid that I didn't ask to be paid for me. Jesus died so that I might live forever? Did anyone ask if I wanted eternal life? It wasn't my idea. Maybe I would have been happy simply ceasing to exist. If I no longer existed, then I wouldn't know I no longer existed. Besides, I haven't done any crime for which I can't do the time on my own.

I have two children and I am able to fogive them on their own merits. I also can show them unconditional love and do not require a mediator or advocate to love and forgive them. If I can do this, being mortal, why can't God do it? Is becoming a Mormon God mean that I would lose this ability to love my children unconditionaly?

Perhaps the mainstream Christian concept of the atonement makes sense, but the Mormon version is wacky, don't you think?

Ptolemy vs. the Klowns of Kolob

02/13/2004 - from Meat before the Milk

The Ptolemaic System is very reminiscent of LDS theology and apologist attempts to reconcile it with observed phenomena, that is Hebrew DNA or lack there of in the indigenous populations of the pre-Columbian new world, a serious lack of Nephite archaeological sites in the new world, a dearth of BOM plants, animals and steel (and the mining, and refining thereof), etc.

Though I had studied the Ptolemaic System some decades ago, knowledge and comprehension do not always equal integration. It only happened recently that this connection clicked. Thinking of the weird convolutions present day GA go through to excuse some of the really off the wall LDS doctrine and behaviors just started to remind me of the weird convolutions Ptolemy "put the solar system through" mathematically to get it to conform to observed phenomena. The big difference between Ptolemy's system and LDS theology is that from an observational standpoint, Ptolemy's system worked.

There are many good references to the Ptolemaic System on line. This is one that I liked. Ptolemaic system


Not only only were honey bees not introduced to America until the seventeenth century, but horses as well. There were no horses in America until the Spanish and Portuguese took over south and central America. As for elephants -- well! - 10/05/2003 - anon

Mormons on the Moon

09/04/2003 - from Nephihaha

What do you call a Mormon on the Moon?
A; A Mission

What do you call two Mormons on the Moon?
A: Missionaries

What do you call every single Mormon going to the Moon?
A: Mission accomplished!

Did you hear that they sent a missionary couple to the Moon, and converted everyone on the Moon as soon as they landed? That's because there was only two people there. No other mission has been so successful.

Moonies, Quakies, Sunnies & Gaia

05/29/2003 - from CX

The Moon is inhabited, otherwise it would be pointless. The sun is also inhabited -

"Who can tell us of the inhabitants of this little planet that shines of an evening, called the moon? ... when you inquire about the inhabitants of that sphere you find that the most learned are as ignorant in regard to them as the most ignorant of their fellows. So it is with regard to the inhabitants of the sun. Do you think it is inhabited? I rather think it is. Do you think there is any life there? No question of it; it was not made in vain." - Brigham Young, July 24, 1870, "Journal of Discourses", vol. 13, p. 271 a-b.

The notorious "Moon Quaker" remarks. They live for a thousand years... hopefully, mostly outside rest homes.

"As far back as 1837, I know that he [Joseph Smith] said the moon was inhabited by men and women the same as this earth, and that they lived to a greater age than we do - that they live generally to near the age of a 1000 years. He described the men as averaging near six feet in height, and dressing quite uniformly in something near the Quaker style." - Oliver B. Huntington, Feb. 6, 1892, "Young Woman.s Journal", vol. 3, p. 263 b.

The Earth is a living being, that will progress too. This is not too unlike the Gaia hypothesis favoured today by many new age leaning scientists. Oddly enough, perhaps one of the more accurate "Space Doctrines".

"This earth or planet which we inhabit ... itself is subject to certain laws of progression and salvation because of which it eventually will become a fit abode for exalted beings. This earth was created as a living thing, and the Lord ordained that it should live a celestial law." - Bruce McConkie (Apostle), "Mormon Doctrine" (1966) p. 210 a-b.


There is just too much in this particular website, to analyse properly here, so I suggest following the link and judging for yourselves. Some of the material on reincarnation is not in line with "Mormal" doctrine. - 05/09/2003 - from CX

Honey bees did not thrive in the Americas

02/02/2003 - from SickbastardfortheTruth

Unfortunately for the Mos, the ugly truth of reality raises its ugly head again. Being a beekeeper myself, I found's comment on The "Honey Bee" state of Utah has been mis-named (posted 01/01/2003 below) very interesting. So I did a search on the internet and found the following historical posting on Honey Bees - It supports the fact that honey bees did not thrive in the Americas

The "Holy of Holies"

01/06/2003 - Weeder

The Holy of Holies sealing room inside the Salt Lake temple (ca. 1911), where second anointings are performed.

The only picture of the Holy of Holies (in SL Temple) is found in the first edition of James E. Talmadge's "House of the Lord". It was a picture taken around the turn of the century. Also, if you read the text of that book you will learn that what is just inside that door just off the celestial room is not the Holy of Holies proper, but just an outter chamber where there is found three steps (with golden handrailings) leading up to the real doors of the holy of holies. However, even peons in the church, such as myself, can get closer the holy of holies by approaching it from the hallway immediately behind the holy of holies (and the two sealing rooms), there you can actually see the stained glass window of the holy of holies. The holy of holies is also shaped like a big silo (phalic symbol -- how appropriate is that?), and the domed top sticks up into the upper floor forming a room appropriatly called the "dome room" (snicker, snicker). I've only been in the dome room on one of my own "self-guided" tours of the place (nope, I wasn't caught that time).

The room that I was always most currious about was the mystery room off to the side of the holy of holies, as you face the door to the ante chamber to the holy of holies from the celestial room on the left is the sealing room "for the living" and the sealing room on the right of the door is the sealing room "for the dead". If you've been in the back hallway you can tell that the two sealing rooms are MUCH more shallow than the holy of holies, indeed, behind the sealing room for the living is a little room where they shuffle the wedding parties for people getting married in that little sealing room for the living, you will notice that right out of that room there is a LITTLE door that goes directly into the holy of holies. I've presume this is the door the profit actually uses to go chat with the Lard instead of a grand entry from the celestial room. The mystery room is on the other side of the holy of holies from this wedding waiting area and behind the sealing room for the dead. There are no doors to this room so, the ONLY way into this room would have to be from the holy of holies itself. This room is not described at all by James E. Talmadge. It also has a window on the back side (like the holy of holies) but not with stained glass. It does have very heavy drapes on the inside so you can't look in.

The "Honey Bee" state of Utah has been mis-named

01/01/2003 -

Additional evidence that the history of the origination of Mormonism is a falsity.

The honey bee of North America is not native. It was introduced by Europeans in the 1700s. Now why would the last man (Mormon) of an ancient culture who had never in his life seen or heard tell of a honey bee - decide to name the land of God (Deseret) after a non-existent insect?

Joeseph Smith of course, being an ignorant farm boy, would not know that bees were an imported, a non-native species and would have confidently used them as reference and a namesake in his historical fantasy.

The "Honey Bee" state of Utah has been mis-named.

References to animal resurrection - I'm not making this stuff up!

12/30/2002 - Deconstructor of the Recovery Bulletin Board

Some of you challenged the assertion that Mormonism includes the doctrine of total animal resurrection. As bizzare as this sounds, it has clearly been taught by church leaders from Joseph Smith on down:

"John saw beings there (in heaven) of a thousand forms, that had been saved from ten thousand times ten thousand earths like this,-strange beasts of which we have no conception: all might be seen in heaven. The grand secret was to show John what there was in heaven. John learned that God glorified himself by saving all that his hands had made, whether beasts, fowls, fishes or men; and he will glorify himself with them."

"Says one, "I cannot believe in the salvation of beasts." Any man who would tell you that this could not be, would tell you that the revelations are not true. John heard the words of the beasts giving glory to God, and understood them. God who made the beasts could understand every language spoken by them. The four beasts were four of the most noble animals that had filled the measure of their creation, and had been saved from other worlds, because they were perfect: they were like angels in their sphere. We are not told where they came from, and I do not know; but they were seen and heard by John praising and glorifying God. [See Rev.4:6]" - Prophet Joseph Smith, General Conference held on the floor of the Nauvoo Temple, April 8, 1843 HC5:343-44

"Animals do have spirits and that through the redemption made by our Savior they will come forth in the resurrection, to enjoy the blessing of immortal life." - Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, "Answers to Gospel Questions" Volume 2, Page 48

"Nothing is more absolutely universal than the resurrection. Every living thing and being will be resurrected. "As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." (1 Cor. 15:22.)"

"Just as the creative and redemptive powers of Christ extend to the earth and all things thereon, as also to the infinite expanse of worlds in immensity, so the power of the resurrection is universal in scope. Man, the earth, and all life thereon will come forth in the resurrection. And the resurrection applies to and is going on in other worlds and other galaxies."

"Thus saith the Lord: "And the end shall come, and the heaven and the earth shall be consumed and pass away, and there shall be a new heaven and a new earth. For all old things shall pass away, and all things shall become new, even the heaven and the earth, and all the fulness thereof, both men and beasts, the fowls of the air, and the fishes of the sea; And not one hair, neither mote, shall be lost, for it is the workmanship of mine hand." (D. & C. 29:23-25.)"

"No man can conceive of the glory that may be attained through the resurrection. God himself, the Father of us all, is a glorified, exalted, immortal, resurrected Man! (Teachings, pp. 312, 345-346; D. & C. 130:22.)" - Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Gospel Doctrine, Page 638-643

“I can only tell you what the scriptures say about it,” Daddy replied. “Usually, when we talk about the resurrection, we think of people. But the scriptures teach us that man, the earth, and all the life upon it will be resurrected, mentioning especially the beasts, the fowls of the air, and the fishes of the sea. The Savior gave His life so that everything would rise from the dead, even lizards and robins.” - "Will Robins Go to Heaven?” Church Friend, Apr. 1982, Page 39

"He made the tadpole and the ape, the lion and the elephant but He did not make them in His own image, nor endow them with Godlike reason and intelligence. Nevertheless, the whole animal creation will be perfected and perpetuated in the Hereafter, each class in its 'distinct order or sphere,' and will enjoy 'eternal felicity.' That fact has been made plain in this dispensation (D&C 77:3)." - Church First Presidency Message, Christmas greetings, Dec. 18, 1909

"The Lord created all things for a purpose. Nothing has he created to be destroyed, but that all things might endure forever... The Lord intends to save, not only the earth and the heavens, not only man who dwells upon the earth, but all things which he has created. The animals, the fishes of the sea, the fowls of the air, as well as man, are to be re-created, or renewed, through the resurrection, for they too are living souls." - Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, General Conference, October 1928

"Every creature has a spirit, and that it existed in the spirit before it was on the earth; the spirit of every creature is in the form of its temporal, or mortal, body. Since this is true, and all forms of life partook of the effects of Adam's fall, therefore they are entitled to the resurrection and shall live again. "And not one hair, neither mote, shall be lost for it is the workmanship of mine hand," said the Lord. (D. & C. 29:25.) Likewise the earth, which is a living body, must die "in like manner" as to all other mortal things, and then receive the resurrection. (Isa. 51:6.) The fact that the spirit of every animal, every fish, every fowl of the air, is in the likeness of its body, and that also it was created in the spirit in the beginning, is a contradiction of these unscientific theories which man has inflicted upon a fallen world." - Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, "Church History and Modern Revelation", Published by The Council of The Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, 1946.

If the Church is true, life after the resurrection is going to be overun with mosquitos, rats and cockroaches.

Maybe hell is having the eternal assignment to feed all of these resurrected animals. Remember, they'll all be vegetarians like us too...


Satan only did to Adam and Eve what he had already done on "other worlds," according to the temple endowment. As to my understanding of the endowment: God needs no devil to give fruit to "them". Adam's and Eve's mistake was to take the fruit from the wrong hand. - 07/02/2002 - from

Selenians and other Cosmic Life Forms

06/09/2002 - CX of the Recovery Bulletin Board

I suggest you look at the excellent site at -

Some of this is spoof, so be careful, but if it's referenced it can be checked. The rest of the quotes are gathered by myself.

It mentions BY talking about Selenians.

(Journal of Discourses., 1871, p. 27 1)

"...whose hearts leapt with joy and exceeding delectation... and dwelt into the cliffs of the orb of the basin named Hertz-sprung in the sight of all splendor.."

Brigham Young on the Moon

Revelation 5:13-14 also mentions creatures "in heaven".


The rest here are roughly based on some things I have heard Mormons talking about. They are mostly Biblical. The Bible is more open to interpretation than Mormon scripture it seems. One of my Mormon teachers had apparently taught astronomy in school, and from him I got a few of the ideas here.


Giant space aliens may have bred with earthlings at some point in the past according to interpretations of Genesis 6:1-13 . Some people consider angels to be true aliens, but others that they are merely progressed humans. The giants fought by Joshua in Canaan were descendants of these "half-breeds" and Goliath was therefore part-alien in ancestry.


These words since removed from the temple ceremony are Adamic which is supposed to be spoken in "Heaven". This is thus an extraterrestrial language too because heaven is in space (see other quotes here).


Certain angels and aliens that travel beyond their "habitation" shall be cast into outer darkness. Jude 1:6 The Tower of Babel was an attempt to build a spaceport Genesis 11:1-9 Satan was punished for his "traffick" between worlds. Ezekiel 28:18


My personal missionary told me that someone had dated a coke can to be a million years old. Not official doctrine, but heard first hand! This shows a serious misunderstanding of carbon dating which is used on organic matter.


At some point in the future at the time of the Day of Judgment the sea shall be destroyed completely. Revelation 21:1


One explanation given of Acts 5:19-23 & Acts 8:38-40... that angels can teleport, and presumably travel faster than light by so.

In the SLC temple there is a stargate to Kolob. (FPR)


Elijah was taken into heaven by a UFO. 2 Kings 2:11-12 ... likewise Ezekiel saw spaceships (Ezekiel 1:1-28 & Ezekiel 2:12-14 - although this is more under the influence of Erich von Daniken than the prophets!). The pillar of fire that led Moses to the Promised Land is said to be a spacecraft as well. Mormons point out that Ezekiel refers to "creatures" implying that they are not necessarily human in appearance.


Numerous apocalyptic passages all over the Bible and in the Mormon scriptures talk about stars falling from heaven in the last days. I was taught in seminary that this was referring to the fact that the world will be ended in part by a massive meteor shower. See Revelation 12:3-5 and many others. We discussed this a couple of times in classes, and I answered the question "correctly".


This is referred to in Job 38:4-7 . The Stars "sing"... Space is a vacuum and as such proper sound cannot cross it.


As well as being in control of the Earth, Satan had a home planet "Rahab" (meaning arrogance or strength in Hebrew).

- Rahab was blown up into pieces and became the asteroid belt. Psalms 89:10-11 & Isaiah 51:9

- The explosion and the reason why can be found in Ezekiel 28:16 & 18

- Job 26 refers to the "empty place" under the north pole where UFOs come from. Verse 12 refers to Rahab, since Rahab means "proud".

- Revelation 12:7-9 talks about a home planet of the bad angels, and may be Rahab or their present home. Daniel 12:39 refers to Satan allying with the ruler of another planet.


Satan is cast into the lake of fire which is depths of a star, or a supernova and/or the core of the earth. Reference needed.

Black holes are prisons for bad angels. Jude 1:6 & 2 Peter 2:17


Comets are controlled by Satan. Jude 1:13 Nebulae are also homes to the fallen. 2 Peter 2:17

Spencer's Enlightenment

11/15/2002 - from Spencer W. Morgan -

I am LDS and have a few comments on your web page entitled "Mormon Space Doctrine":

The paragraph where you state that Mormons believe that Giant space aliens may have bred with earth people is not true. There is no room for that interpretation of that scripture in LDS belief, since the Joseph Smith translation corrected that scripture in Genesis to say "the sons of men were with the daughters of god" (as opposed to vice versa) and that it simply means the daughters in the Abrahamic covenant began to marry outside of the covenant, or believers. You can verify this information by reading the Joseph Smith translation of Genesis (available in the LDS standard works) and/or the commentary of that scripture in the church-published Old Testament institute manual.

Elijah taken into UFO.. well, the bible says a "flaming chariot" and LDS doctirine accepts the biblical record completely. The definition of UFO is "Unidentified Flying Object". It is clear that the chariot was flying, and unlikely that the locals at the time would have not been able to "identify" it, so it is, by definition a UFO. Both are true, but your use of the term "UFO" is clearly an attempt at sensationalism and distorts the truth.

The paragraph about Satan's home planet, "Rehab" is absolute nonsense. We believe Satan was a spirit son of god, as are all of us, and rebelled and was cast out, from where he previously dwelled in the presence of god, and all of us, in the preexistence. He never dwelt on "Rehab" or any other "home planet" according to LDS doctrine. Again I would refer you to official church publications on the matter.

"Stargate to Kolob"?? That is absolutely ridiculous, and I have been through ever temple ordinance. You are treading on very sacred ground with comments like that.

Ezekiel's Vision: Any Christian Bible scholar will tell you the "creatures" ezekiel saw were symbolic representations, are were not just simple humans in appearance. There is nothing in LDS teaching that says they were UFO's... again a term that has no real meaning other than sensationalism.

Black Holes prisons for bad angels? Nope, there is no such thing as a "bad angel", angels are messengers of God and as such must be obedient to him, in LDS doctirine every angel that ministers to this earth is either a person that lived and was resurrected, was translated (taken into heaven, such as Elijah) or is a spirit which is yet to live on earth. There are no angels being punished and living in black holes!

I chose to comment on these things because they are absolute fabrications with no basis in LDS belief. Many of the other statements on your page are interpretations based on partial truths which I disagree with but could not possibly ask you to remove. Still other statements on the page are true, but I hope you will, on the basis of my comments and research with official church publications and, in the interest of intellectual honesty, correct the statements which I listed and are complete fabrications that you, no doubt, heard from uninformed and speculative church members (there are many). Thank you for your time.

Editor's Note: CX replies to Spencer - 12/23/2002

I should point out to Stargazer that most of what I talk about is interpretation of the Bible in the eyes of certain LDS members, rather than openly admitted doctrine.

You will notice that I included (FPR) after the Stargate quote since that stands for "Faith Promoting Rumor" or Urban Legend... that means that a large chunk of Mormons believe it, but I doubt you'd hear the current Prophet pandering to that nonsense, since he tends to be more sober than either Young or Smith.

'there is no such thing as a "bad angel", angels are messengers of God'

Perhaps ex-Angel would be a better term, if we are referring to the opponents in the War in Heaven, that is supposed to have happened in our pre-existence.

I have read several times in various places a quote from Smith himself, or one of the early prophets that the different between Angels of God and bad/false/ex-Angels is that the good ones have bodies.

'it simply means the daughters in the Abrahamic covenant began to marry outside of the covenant, or believers'

Then again, we are all supposed to be God's children are we not, even if we are fallen? As you yourself said earlier - 'We believe Satan was a spirit son of god, as are all of us'

'your use of the term "UFO" is clearly an attempt at sensationalism and distorts the truth'

Flaming chariot in the sky, phantom airship or flying saucer... call it what you will, it's some kind of aircraft in the loosest sense, and some take that further and make it into a space craft.

This IS a controversial subject. I feel that not only has "Battlestar Galatica" engendered certain of these (folk?) beliefs, but has even implied them in some cases! Anyway, having feedback from a church member is only fair... but I would add that several of these doctrines were actually taught to me in the church!

Kolob Imagined by Non-Mormon Physicist

11/24/2001 - by LMG

Freeman Dyson (click on name for book details)

"Freeman Dyson [distinguished physicist and educator best known for his speculative work on the possibility of extraterrestrial civilizations] was an excitingly imaginative scientist who proposed that a highly advanced technological civilization would ultimately completely surround its host star with a huge shell to capture 100% of the useful radiant energy. This "Dyson shell" or "Dyson sphere" as subsequent writers have called it, would have a gigantic cluster of artificial planetoids (called a "Dyson cloud") with billions of billions of inhabitants who would make use of the energy captured by the Dyson shell. Freeman Dyson also made the most intriguing speculation that a Dyson sphere viewed from afar--from other star systems or other galaxies--would have a highly distinctive and unnatural light. He advised that astronomers search the heavens for such tell-tale colored stars, which could only signify highly advanced, intelligent life."

Mormon Space Doctrine - Quotes & References

09/30/2001 - by Deconstructor of the recovery bulletin board


- God says the correct name for our Sun is "Shinehah," which is the name He gave it. Also, the correct name of the moon is "Olea." See Abraham 3:13.

- God lives on a giant crystal ball. See D&C 130:6-8.

- God's home planet orbits a star named "Kolob." See Abraham 3:3

- Kolob is "the great governing star of our universe" and "the residence of God." See Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith's "Church History and Modern Revelation" Volume 3, Page 60.

- The Sun is a celestialized world, where its inhabitants are perfected. Brigham Young taught in General Conference said: "So it is with regard to the inhabitants of the sun. Do you think it is inhabited? I rather know it is. Do you think there is any life there? No question of it; it was not made in vain. It was made to give light to those who dwell upon it, and to other planets; and so will this earth when it is celestialized." See Journal of Discourses, 13:271. Also see Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, Volume 1 Page 88: "Earth to be Celestialized Sun"

- The Earth will undergo a perfection after the millenium and become a huge seer stone of glass. People living on the Earth after this transformation will be able to look into the Earth and see things happening on "inferior" planets. See D&C 130:9

- Kolob is the North Star, according to Joseph Smith. This restored truth is from Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith.

- No wait, Kolob is at the center of our Galaxy, which all others stars rotate around. See Clark, J. Reuben Jr., "Behold the Lamb of God," page 46, "Kolob, the Governor"

- The Earth actually has a spirit, just like we do. It had to be baptized (the flood) to fulfill all richeousness, just like us. It will also have to receive the baptism of fire (at the second coming of Christ) in order to receive its exaltation and become a celestialized world. See Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith's "Doctrines of Salvation," Volume 1, page 87 "Celestial Destiny of the Earth.

- When Adam and Eve lived in the Garden of Eden, the Earth was closely orbiting Kolob, like God's home planet. But when Adam and Eve fell, so did the Earth and it was hurled across the cosmos and placed in orbit around our sun in this planetary system. After the Millenium, the Earth will return to its rightful place near God, orbiting Kolob. See Church Ensign, March 1997, Page 16 "The Book of Abraham: A Most Remarkable Book," and Journal of Discourses, 17:143 and Journal of Discourses 7:163

- Black Holes are "outer darkness" where God will cast those sons of perditions that deny His spirit. This includes all ex-mos. See "The Creation," page 146 and D&C 101:90-91

- The light of Christ is really just the light coming from the Sun and the Moon. See D&C 88:7.


- Joseph Smith taught that the Earth was created like a cake, from ingredients of different ages. Just like a cake was made from wheat that is a year old, eggs from a few days and milk fresh this morning from the cow, so too, the Earth is made from parts of different ages. Still need reference.

- God created everything twice, just like Plato said. First there was a spiritual creation, and then there was a physical creation. See Moses 3:5 and Endowment Ceremony.

- God did not create the physical Earth Himself. Actually, we all helped out. Under the direction of Jesus and Adam, ALL OF US created the Earth. Some of us created trees, others created rocks and still others created animals, based on God's blueprints. Still need reference.

- Mars and Venus have dry rivers that match perfectly with rivers on Earth, proving that parts of all three were "organized" from parts of a same old planet. Scientists say the moon was formed out of the Earth, why not the other planets too? Still need reference.

- God can't get his story straight about which order he created the Earth. The order of the days of creation in Moses contradict the order given in the Temple Endowment, which are both inspired truth. The third and fourth days of creation are switched in the temple ceremony, wheras Moses matches the order of Genesis. See Moses 2:9-19 and Temple Ceremony (all versions).

- God created the Earth first, then He created the Sun, Moon and stars and the rest of the universe. On the first day of creation God creates the earth (see Moses 2:2-5). On the second day, God creates earth's oceans and the atmosphere (see Moses 2:6-8). On the third day, God separates the land from the water and creates vegetation, fruits and trees (see Moses 2:9-13). Finally, on the fourth day, God creates the Sun, Moon and stars (see Moses 2:14-19).


- There are human beings on many other planets that look just like us because they too, are in the image of God. See New Era Article " People on Other Worlds" April 1971.

- UFOs are from the City of Enoch, that was raised to heaven because the citizens attained perfection. City of Enoch story is in the Perl of Great Price. Still need reference to UFO tie-in.

- Joseph Smith taught that the Ten Lost Tribes had gone to the North Pole, as it used to be warm, but God divided the planet in two and they wound up between Texas and Florida. Then God scooped them up, leaving a big hole called the Gulf of Mexico. And these millions of Hebrews are today on this island floating around in the solar system, but we can't see them because God has them flying at an angle where the telescopes can't pick them up. But one day the island will crash back into the Gulf and the earth will reel to and fro like a drunken man. See for tons of scriputral and JS Teaching references.

- UFOs are from the lost ten tribes, which live underneath the north pole. As explained in the Doctine and Covenants, these tribes will return by flight from the north in the Last Days. See D&C 110:11 and 133:26.

- Earth is the most evil of all of God's worlds in the Universe. God sent Christ here because it was the only world that was wicked enough to kill Jesus. Still need reference.

- All of the other planets in the universe with God's children have prophets who preach to them about Chist's life, death and resurrection on Earth. Just as our prophets tell us that other worlds have human life on them, so to, true prophets on other worlds teach the life of Christ as he lived it on this Earth Still need reference.

- Mars is populated by beings who, like us, were created in the image of God, so they look like us. Except they are waiting to hear about the Gospel, which we will preach to them during the millenium. Still need reference.

- Satan only did to Adam and Eve what he had already done on "other worlds," according to the temple endowment.

- "Thus the Lord has given us the information regarding his creations, and how he has made many earths, for there never was a beginning, never was a time when man did not exist somewhere in the universe, and when the time came for this earth to be peopled the Lord, our God, transplanted upon it from some other earth, the life which is found here." Improvement Era, Vol 23:389-393; Joseph Fielding Smith; "The Origin and Destiny of Man"; 1919

Mormon Physics

- All spirit is matter, just "more fine or pure" form of matter which we cannot measure. See D&C 131:7.

- The Mormon God cannot destroy or create matter, he can only "reorganize" it. So the Solar System was formed from other previous creations. See Temple Endowment, The Contributor, Vol. 4, p. 257, and Joseph Smith As Scientist, p. 14.

- God has cursed water and turned it over to Satan to control. Satan controls bodies of water, especialy rivers. See D&C 61:13-19

- All matter in the universe chooses to obey God's law. If God had not sacrificed his Only Beggoten Son to fulfill the atonement and satisfy the law, then matter would not have continued to respect God and matter would not have continued to obey Him. This is from Jesus the Christ and expounded on heavily by the Living Apostle Neal A. Maxwell. Still need reference.

- Light is the sole medium which God has for governing the universe. See Journal of Discources, Volume 15:232

Other Dimensions

- The Earth is the spirit world, where the billions of deceased spirits now live. In fact, there are spirits all around us right now, yet we cannot see them and they cannot see us, thanks to "the veil." [This is so much like a few Star Trek episodes!] Still need reference.

- When babies are born, "the veil" is still very thin and as newborns they can see spirits, remember the "pre-exisitence" and still hear God directly. It's only later after months trapped in a physical body that "the veil" begins to close over their spritual awareness. Still need reference.

- Just before people die, "the veil" once again lifts and they start to see again all the spirits and angels all around us. Still need reference.

- God lives in the fourth dimension, which explains why he can see everything, be everywhere and know all time. In fact, as three-dimensional beings, if we could visit flatland (a two-dimensional universe) the inhabiants would think we were Gods. Still need reference.

- The Holy of Holies in the Salt Lake Temple actually contains a portal to the celestial realm at Kolob. [Talk about a Stargate!] Still need reference.

Time and Time Travel

- God travels much faster than the speed of light. God travels at the "speed of thought." Still need reference.

- A day for God is like a thousand years on Earth. This is because it takes a thousand Earth years for God's home planet Kolob to rotate around once on its axis. See Abraham 3:4-5

- Adam and Eve living in the Garden of Eden were "subject to Kolob Time." See abraham 5:13

- Seer stones allow us to see past, present and future events at any location. All of those that make it to the Celestial Kingdom will have their own seer stone, to review any moment or location in the universe. See D&C 130:10-11

- If it wasn't for "Cherubum and a Flaming Sword" in front of the tree of life, Adam and Eve would have lived "forever" after eating the forbidden fruit. See Alma 12:21, 42:2-3 and Moses 4:31

- A richeous man's "time" on this Earth is not "cut short," according to the D&C 122:9.

- Christ's atonement was eternal, reached back in time and retro-actively saved the faithful who lived and died before the event occurred, yet they were told to wait for his coming in order to be saved. Still need reference.

- God showed his temporal prophets "everything from the beginning to the end of time", as accounts record in the Pearl of Great Price and the Book of Mormon. See stories of Nephi, Moses and Abraham.


- Right from the scriptures, the Earth's total temporal existance is 7,000 years. See D&C 77:6

- There's more gold and mineral riches in Utah than the rest of the world combined. It's hidden from you because of a lack of faith. There's no need to go to California to pan for Gold, because God will reveal these riches to you when you are richeous enough. This was preached a lot from the pulpit during Brigham Young's lifetime. Still need reference.

- Fossilized dinosaur bones are from dinosaurs that lived on other worlds that were destroyed to create the Earth. They were living creatures, but not from this Earth. (See Creation above) Still need reference.

- Carbon dating is phoney because God has altered the Earth so many times with processes we can't understand or measure. Still need reference.

- The Garden of Eden was in Missouri. Noah was taken to the Old World by the Flood. This teaching was given by Joseph Smith and is still accepted as true doctrine. Given this teaching, Mormons have to accepts the Flood as a global phenomenon. Still need reference.

Mormon Biology

- Adam and Eve had perfect bodies that had God's blood in their veins. As soon as they ate the fruit, they poisoned their bodies and their blood became impure, which made them mortal. Basically, Adam and Eve broke the Word of Wisdom, according to Joseph F. Smith. Still need reference.

- Adam lived nearly 1,000 years and the prophets used to live hundreds of years because they lived the Word of Wisdom perfectly and had more of God's blood in their veins. Over time, the human race has polluted blood more and more. Still need reference.

- Adam did not have a navel, Eve did. Still need reference.

- Drinking tea may tan your stomach similarly to what happens in a teapot. (Missionary teaching technique taken seriously by some).

- All races, including blacks, asians, indians etc.. will be resurrected in their perfect state as white caucasians. Still need reference.

- Our Spirit bodies look exactly the same as our physical bodies, even before birth. In the book of Mormon Christ appeared (and touched the stones) to the Brother of Jared in the BoM in his spirit form, which appeared the same as his future body would thousands of years later when he was born. See Ether 3:15-17

- Resurrection is simply a priesthood ordinance not yet revealed, but that will be revealed after the millenium. Still need reference.

Comment and Additional Quote and Reference Section

don´t you have any better to do than bullshit all the time? I think that respect is a characteristic of an inteligent person, but you have any kind of it. it´s so pitty!!! - 11/03/2009 - laconeus

wow!!! i grew up a mormon, i just forgot how funny all this stuff was!!! thanks for the entertainment.

I think you should send all of this to the John stewart show, he would have a ball with this, especially if Mitt Romney runs for president - 07/27/2009 - Debbie

Back in 1996 I was on staff at the scout camp in Salmon Id. I was the only NoMo there, which already made me a target for a daily barrage of prostelytizing. Well one day I was sitting with a bunch of holier-than-thou morgbots when the subject of Bigfoot came up. One of the Mo's asked the others sitting there where Bigfoot came from, I quipped that he was a myth, and they all looked at me like I was insane! The Kool-aid drinker who asked the question in the first place "Informed" me that actually it was bigfoot who had the mark of Cain! I kid you not! I sat there dumbfounded not saying a word! I was just wondering if you people at the Salamander Society have heard of this knuckle-headed doctrine ? - 04/11/2008 - jordo

As a sidenote to the very first speculation of this page: it's questionable to call viruses "living", since they don't meet the criteria of "living things" as we know it today. They, for example, do multiply and carry genetic information, but don't have any cells. I don't know how a Mormon missionary would wiggle him-/herself out of this one though... - 01/30/2008 - Gerbera

I am a believing and practicing member of the church--I like to take the time to read what you people like to write about us and then search it out for myself. The funny thing is that half of these things have truth to them, but of course, the other half are solid lies. Something that you will never understand is WHY members of the church believe the church is true. You will certainly keep writing down your opinions about why you think they do, but you will never really know. Well, I take that back, i suppose you may know someday, but not unless something changes in you. Well, it's been fun. I now post my remarks for you to mock and ridicule. - 11/27/2007 - anon



It is interesting that you have missed the common thread in all this the holy ghost a being that is able to spiritually contact every being that has been given the gift of the holy ghost with the authority of god is this the reason latter day saints are different do they have some thing the holy ghost in their lives that no other people on earth save the mormons have. - 04/29/2007 - little one


Various Daoist religious scriptures are said ro have been found on ancient metal plates, supposedly buried by a supernatural being and dug up centuries later in response to a dream or vision. A rumor of this doctrine may have been transmitted to New England via whalers and other New England shippers. The idea could have been picked up by New England Freemansons, and passed on to the relatives of Joseph Smith. [There is hardly any other plausible explanation of the Mormon doctrine concerning this; it simply is not known in European traditions.] - 09/08/2005 - from


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