12/07/2009 by Tahoe Girl of Recovery from Mormonism
This past summer my ex was in town to "visit" our children. He happened to be here during the time that SL Cabbie posted a thread about the lesbian riding in his cab who told him that she had been a victim of shock therapy at BYU. They had attached electrodes to her private area, showed her lesbian porn, and shocked her. I was horrified. I had read previously about shock therapy on gay men and am just as horrified with that, but I hadn't been aware that they also did it to women.
That evening, my 16 year old son and my ex were sitting in the living room. I came in, sat down and related what SLCabbie had posted. While I spoke about it, my ex sat stony faced, no expression at all. He made no comment about it either.
Not 30 minutes later, the TV was on and my son was watching Family Guy. My ex speaks up and says, "I don't usually watch Family Guy because it's often crude."
WHAT? So it's OK to shock gay and lesbian people at BYU but it's not OK to watch Family Guy? You have nothing to say about the cruel, inhumane treatment of people on the campus of your alma mater but you'll preach to us about the crudity of Family Guy? At least Family Guy hurts no one, nor does it leave a person forever psychologically damaged the way electro-shock to the genitals does.
But then this is the man who thought it was OK for Joseph Smith to marry 14 year old Helen Mar Kimball because the legal marriage age then was 12.
A dishonorable man indeed.
Do we have references on the BYU shock therapy stuff? - by lily
I'd really like to read about this. It's a human rights nightmare!
Youtube links - by Tahoe Girl
Here are the links to interviews of men who suffered this. In the past someone posted information about the patent for the shock machine used at BYU for this purpose. Sick stuff.
Monson was involved with Oaks in this:
It's impossible for TBM's (True Believing Mormons) to deny after they see this:
Patent-holder Robert Card was the overseer of this at BYU by Tahoe Girl
You can find out more info if you google him. Here's a quote from the following website:
Another LDS-approved psychologist, Robert Card, used these techniques well past the time of the study, even though the results had proven a failure. In 1985, Card accepted an invitation to speak at the University of Utah’s Gay Student Union, where he admitted that he practiced electro-shock therapy, but said he had abandoned it and was not using bio-feedback therapy in an effort to reduce homosexual feelings. He was silent on whether his success of introducing heterosexual feelings afterward.
Other works involving Robert Card, Ph.D.
The Empirical Characteristics and Clinical Utility of the Monarch Adolescent Audio Visual PPG Stimulus Materials. A paper by Peter M. Byrne, M.S. & Robert D. Card, Ph.D. presented at the 18th Annual Research & Treatment Conference of the Association for the Treatment of Sexual Abusers (ATSA), Orlando, Florida, October 1999.
What is “Deviant?” An Examination of Three Distinct Groups' Penile Plethysmograph Responses. A paper by Peter M. Byrne, M.S. & Robert D. Card, Ph.D. presented at the 18th Annual Research & Treatment Conference of the Association for the Treatment of Sexual Abusers (ATSA), Orlando, Florida, October 1999.
Follow-up - by SL Cabbie
I've since become good friends with the girl who reported the electroshock (and her partner).
There's no way she was making that one up (and the only part I "solicited" was whether this had taken place at BYU).
A few days after the original cab ride, "flattopSF" came through town, and he, BTC, Swedeboy, and myself had lunch where we touched on the subject briefly. Flattop mentioned that this was the first time he'd known of a woman who had come forward; as the videos show, a number of men have as well, and my understanding is there have been a number of suicides . . .
Finally, without revealing any more IRL stuff than necessary, this young lady is only in her early 30's...
Courtesy of Family Fellowship Newletter 1998
In my final interview with my mission president, I was counseled to go home, find a lovely bride, get married and have children. If I was a faithful husband and stayed close to the church, everything would work itself out. After spending two years in the mission field and in therapy, I returned home, and my parents immediately got me in to see a psychiatrist. They were going to fix me or change me or heal me at any cost, and I also wanted to change, badly. I wanted to be normal at any cost. And for the rest of my life, I have searched for the cure that I thought must be somewhere out there. I saw the psychiatrist once a week for several months at that time.
As I was going through psychotherapy, my parents where made aware of a radical new kind of therapy. The technical term for it was "Aversion Therapy." I call it what it is: Shock Therapy. There are many who believe that it never existed, that it was only rumors that were being circulated. Well, I went through this therapy once a week for almost two years! It was real! It was cruel, barbaric, and I was promised that I would be made better if I stuck with it! I did stick with it. The promise was an illusion, and I became more messed up than when I started. I would like to describe this barbaric therapy so that those who think it was a myth will know differently, and so that those who think that I didn’t want change bad enough will know that one would have to want it desperately to go through this torture for that length of time!
The therapy was administered by a doctor named Robert Card in a little office on "H" street just off North Temple in Salt Lake. I would be led into a little room about four feet by eight or ten feet with a draped window in the back. In this little room there was a TV against a blank wall at one end, a chair placed close to the other end, and a large machine with meters and dials on it. Next to the machine was a chair and a projector where the doctor sat. After I entered the room I was handed a small, very fine circular clamp (or ring) with an open end that touched very finely together and some wires attached to it. I was asked to drop my pants, place the ring around the shaft of my penis, then carefully replace my clothes loosely and sit down. The doctor would then come back into the room and place cuffs on each arm, from my wrist to my elbow. These cuffs had several electrodes in them running the length of the arm. The doctor would turn out the lights, turn on a small lamp back where he sat, and fire up the machine. He would test a charge of electricity on me and set a level. The more intense the shock, the more aversive the therapy.
After I was all set up and had been shocked a couple of times to get my levels, then the real fun would begin. The doctor would turn on a very graphic porno video of two or more men having sexual intercourse (and other activities). As I became excited and started to get an erection, the little ring around my penis would measure the slightest growth in circumference. This would then register on the device where the doctor sat, and he would hit me with a few seconds of volts. He would then sharply tell me to control my arousal. After a few minutes he would hit me with a few more seconds of electricity. This would go on for about five to ten minutes. I would get aroused no matter how hard I tried not to, and I would be shocked again and again. Then he would turn off the homosexual video and turn on a very graphic heterosexual video. As I watched this, he would instruct me to become aroused and to enjoy what I was looking at. At that point I would think to myself, "Hello! What do you think? That this naked man in all his glory is not arousing to me? That woman is of no consequence, she is just there. I can do this." Then after five or ten minutes, we would go back to the homosexual video and start again.
Week after week, month after month, I would go to this little room and allow myself to be tortured, all for the sake of change! The problem was that the doctor had to keep building up the voltage to get more effect. Like Skinner’s rats, I got used to it to some degree. One day, after nearly two years, the charge was so intense that it kicked me out of my seat. I stood up, pulled off the electrodes, pulled off the little ring, and never went back! I was definitely not cured, just more messed up.
Courtesy of Gary and Millie Watts
Jayce is a member of the church
in Las Vegas where he served not long ago as an Elder's Quorum President.
He is a returned missionary. The following account was supplied to
Gary and Millie Watts for use on this site.
This is a transcript from an interview between Jayce and his therapist, Ron Lawrence, a licensed marriage and family therapist, Community Counseling Center, Las Vegas, Nevada, Jan 17, 2000
I'm going to just start out by asking some questions and just a little bit about you. Now, how old are you Jayce?
Twenty-four. How long have you known or dealt with the fact that you're gay?
I've always known, you know. You just always know.
From [when you were] very little?
My earliest memories are just knowing that I was different.
So, we feel that differentness. How is it that you got connected with reparative therapy?
The very first time I ever told a religious leader that I maybe had inappropriate feelings–because that's what they were labeled–I was 18. And he said, "Don't worry about it. You haven't done anything wrong. You haven't acted upon it. Juts date a lot a more."
He said to do what?
Date more. Date girls more?
Uh-huh. And he gave me a book. Actually, I think I was 17. I was a senior in high school. And in the book it basically said that the reason why [I was gay was because of] an overbearing mother and a very distant father. It kind of made me believe that maybe that was true in my case.
So what he tried to lay on it was pretty much what they still continue to do–the myth of dysfunctional family. So, this was about six years ago now?
Um, hm. My family's quite dysfunctional, so I thought, "Well, maybe this is why [I'm gay]."
And, of course, all families are dysfunctional in some way!
Well, yeah. My parents are divorced. My dad lives in Las Vegas and my mother lives in back in Montana. And I was living in Montana at the time. The book said if you really worked on your relationship with your father, you could overcome this easily. So the day after graduation I moved to Las Vegas so I could spend time with my dad and try, you know, to make our relationship stronger or whatever. But my dad and I have never really gotten along, we've never been real close. We've always been very distant. And so as much as I would try and as much as he would try we never came together. And so we got into a big fight, my father and I, and I moved back to Montana and I thought that I had it all under control, and then I decided to go to school in Utah. I was an RA there, which is like a hall director for a floor of a dormitory.
And what school was this?
Weaver State University.
And one of the other guys who was an RA and I would kind of ... . There were sparks. He was openly gay and that really intrigued me. He would give me gifts and talk to me. Then one night, late at night, we had this kiss and I just freaked out. The next day [I] went to my bishop and he gave me a [telephone] number of somebody down in Salt Lake City with Evergreen International, which is a support group for people trying to overcome their SSA which is, you know, is same-sex attraction.
And when I went there I went to this meeting with this one counselor and he gave me a number of somebody to call that I had to be really discreet about, down in Provo. And so I called him and he had me come down to Provo and meet with him and we talked. We had a two-hour long counseling session. We talked about lack of a strong relationship with my father and the very strong mother figure and he told me that there was a program that we had to be very secretive about, that if I truly wanted to overcome my same-sex attraction that I could participate in, but that it was gonna cost about five, six thousand dollars. But I could do it. I was a candidate for it or whatever, that I qualified.
What were this man's qualifications? Was he a psychologist, was he a social worker? Do you know?
I'm pretty sure he was a psychologist.
A psychologist. OK.
So I drove back to Ogden and really thought about it, prayed about it. I went to my bishop and asked 'im what he thought I should do without giving him much detail because I was told, you know, this needs to be maintained in the strictest confidence and I couldn't even really explain it to my bishop, [and] especially not my family or friends. He said, "Well, pray about it. And if you think it can help you might as well do it." And I had savings for college and so I cashed in all my savings bonds and I went back to Provo. [pauses] This is kind of ... .
Yeah. This is the first time I ever talked about it.
Let your feelings out. What are you feeling right now, Jayce?
You know. It just ... . You know, they promised me this'll work. "You'll be fine." And all your life being raised Mormon you're taught the only way to be a valid person is to be a father and have kids and be married and that's what I wanted so desperately. And to go through all that and not have it work.
And did you indeed spend that sum of money on it?
I spent every dollar I had saved for college.
Six thousand dollars?
Um, hm. Actually, it ended up to be about nine thousand dollars all together. And so I went back to Provo and I would go once a week for the first month. At first we would just talk.
Under the auspices of what group, Jayce?
There was no name attached to it. It was just the Program.
And it was run by whom? The psychologist?
It was at BYU [Brigham Young University].
Oh, it was at BYU.
Uh, huh. But I had to sign waivers that I would never, ever discuss this. That if anything went wrong I was liable and no one else. The church would not be liable, BYU would not be liable, that this professor would not be liable. That I did this of my own volition.
So, there was a professor at BYU?
And would you care to identify who that person was?
[long pause] Um, his name is Michael Keats. But I don't know that that's his real name. 'Cause I was told not to give my real name.
Do you know what he taught at BYU?
I think he was a professor of psychology.
Um, hm. And the program was called aversion therapy.
And what did they do in this program of aversion therapy?
He had me go into Salt Lake City and go to an adult bookstore and find pornography that I found erotic, or whatever. And then I had to bring it back to him and he ... . I don't know if it was a BYU photo lab or what, but [the pornography] was turned into slides and then they would put electrodes first on my hands–and I have burns.
You have burns on your hands? Oh, I see those burns.
That's from those. And then they're on my arm and my torso. At first.
What year was this, Jayce? Give me a time frame.
It was '94, the last five, six months of 1994.
[long pause] At first we didn't use the slides or any visual type of stimulation. He just told me to fantasize. And as I was trying to fantasize or whatever, trying to do what he wanted me to do, randomly they would send shocks. And that happened for, like, the first three weeks. And that was about six sessions. And then the slides were ready.
OK, let me see if I understand this. You were told to fantasize male-male eroticism?
And then they would send random shocks into your body which caused these scars on your body and on your hands?
OK. And then what?
[long pause] Then there would be slides. [long pause] There were more electrodes this time and they were on ... . [pause] This is kind of embarrassing. [pause] I mean, they were all ... . I was in a position where they could tell if I was being aroused or not. It was very obvious. And then if there was any kind of arousal whatsoever I would be shocked. And then that happened for about two months.
OK. I'm gonna to ask you a really personal question. Did they also have an electrode on your penis?
And is there scar tissue there?
Uh, huh. [long pause]
That happened for at least eight sessions. Probably actually about sixteen because it was two months that we did just that form. And then the electrodes were all [in] the same places, but then I had the control that when I was being shocked I could press this plunger or button or whatever and a picture of a woman would come up and the electrodes would stop.
OK. Now, this took place on BYU property?
OK. Where at? Do you know?
It's the Smith Family Living Center. It was in the basement.
In the basement?
The last two months, that's what we would do. And that was only once a week. And then one day I was driving to Provo and I just couldn't get off the exit. I couldn't do it anymore. And so I just turned around and went back to Ogden and told my bishop that I was fine, that I was OK and he said, "If there's anything left, your mission will fix that." And so I left for my mission ... .
Which was where?
To Minnesota. I served there for about four months in missionary capacity before I became very physically ill. I think it was mostly the emotional trauma of everything that I'd gone through and still knowing that I was still gay, that I was still having these feelings about my companion that I was living with. And I couldn't do it anymore.
Jayce, let's talk about symptoms for a moment. Tell me about both the physical and psychological symptoms after you participated in this [aversive therapy] program.
Mostly just shame. 'Cause you're taught that [being gay] is the sin next to murder.
[Taught by] the church?
And, how unworthy you must be to still have these feelings and for God not to answer your prayers and your fasting ... . Not to fix you, you know? The burns ... . They basically, for the most part, healed. The biggest ones are right here [indicates his hands]. I can't even look at pornography without [becoming] physically ill. It just makes me want to throw up.
If you were to look at a pornographic picture now you become nauseous?
Any bad dreams, Jayce?
A lot of them.
Can you tell about your dreams?
[long pause, sigh]
I know this is hard.
This is going to sound ridiculous, but the one I had the most ... . It would be a very erotic dream and then all of a sudden I feel like I'm being electrocuted.
An erotic dream of a sequence between you and a man?
And then you feel like you're being electrocuted?
In the dream.
So the feelings are there as you're dreaming?
Uh, huh. That's the most common thing that happens. Although over the last four years that's gotten less and less. But still it's something that recurs. [long pause]. I don't know. That's the dream that stands out the most.
Are those dreams still recurring?
OK. This is what I think. I mean, I'm just gonna throw this right into the tape. I want you to come back and see me again. Would you do that?
I think we need to work on this a little bit.
OK. And I think we need to set you free from these symptoms. To me, as a mental health practitioner, it's extremely disconcerting that you, as a young gay man, would be walking around with these symptoms. Are there times, Jayce, when you find yourself scanning the horizon or worrying about certain people you come in contact [with], or anything like that?
What do you mean?
[Do you have] an exaggerated startle response? Are there times you jump when you see certain things?
Can you talk about that?
The first time I ever went into Get Booked I was with a really good friend. I think, actually, I was with Brian. I'd never been there before and we went around towards the back where the magazines are and I just saw a cover and I just had to leave. I couldn't be in that store. I just couldn't do it. I had to go outside and I just threw up.
We call that a conversion symptom. You saw the cover of the magazine, you went outside and threw up.
And, of course, the same- sex attraction never really went away?
No. No. Huh-uh. It's just gotten stronger.
Jayce, how is it that you've resolved all this for yourself in your mind, in your thinking?
Well, I don't know that it's all resolved. But I just ... . This March I was going to the temple twice a week and fasting once a week and praying and I talked to my bishop and he was, like, "You just need to get married and you'll be fine." And so I was engaged to marry this [past] June. And she knew everything. She knew that I was gay and that wasn't a problem for her. But I'd gone to the temple over and over and over again and I had just prayed and prayed, you know, "Take this from me and help me love her the way she deserves to be loved." And I had this overwhelming feeling in the temple that my heavenly father loved me the way I am, and I thought, "How can I get that?" 'Cause that's not what we're taught. That's obviously Satan, or whatever. And I went back and I got the same thing. And then I went back a third time. It was so overwhelmingly powerful for me that I realized, "You know what? God created me the way I am. And he doesn't make mistakes."
So, Jayce, you had a very profound spiritual experience.
Um, hm. Yeah.
I told some Mormon friends and [they said], "I don't know how you could get that. But you got it in the temple." And we've always been taught that anything you get in the temple is true, it's pure, it's from God, and it's what you need to believe. And so I believe that. And I've really prayed hard that I could come to terms with who I am and understand that I'm OK. I'm not there yet, but I'm getting closer, you know. I'm trying really hard.
Right. That's right.
I feel I just had a profound experience and it really helped me tremendously.
So has that profound experience taken you maybe a little closer to reconciling yourself with being gay and having that faith [at the same time]?
Can you talk about that a little bit?
I still really have strong ties to the church and I believe almost all of it and I've done a lot of research about the early teachings, what Joseph Smith taught, and he was very openly gay-friendly. And he was a wonderful person and I truly believe that he was a prophet and that, you know, he spoke for God. But when he died and Brigham Young took over, all hell broke loose. And we've gotten really far away from [Smith's] vision. So I really have a strong belief in the church, but I just think we've gotten off the straight and narrow path.
And so you're able to have some spiritual peace inside of you? In other words, whatever happens, happens, but you feel peaceful with yourself.
That's great. That's great. I encourage you to keep doing the things that you need to do, that are taking you to that place. Obviously they're working.
A lot of my Mormon gay friends can't understand why I still work for the church and why I still go to church on Sunday. But, for me, that's still home. I still appreciate that.
Sure. But you have this inner reconciliation.
And it works for me. It obviously doesn't work for them and that's fine for them.
Anything else you need to tell me about this experience?
The most traumatic part I don't really think was the electrical part. The aversion therapy. I think going to individual therapy and having the therapist tell you that you can't do this to your family, that you're supposed to be a father.
So they're imposing guilt and shame on you?
Uh, huh. And you have all these spirit children who are waiting to come to earth and how are they going to come to earth if you're gay? If you can't procreate.
And this person was a psychologist?
Um, hm. Well, I think so. A counselor or something with Evergreen International. That, I think, for me, was the hardest part. Dealing with all that guilt that's put upon you and having them always reminding you that the only way to be a valid person is to be a father and a husband and somebody who procreates. And that's the only way to be saved, is if you're married.
So, Jayce, are you a valid person?
Good. Indeed you are.
So that's been the hardest part to reconcile.
But you see yourself as valid?
Good. Because indeed, you are.
Jayce, do you have any idea [if] these things are still happening there?
They are? At BYU?
Uh, huh. I have some really good friends who've gone to the program recently.
It's electric shock and they're still doing it?
And is that connected with Evergreen International?
No, they're separate. They're separate.
They're separate? Tell me about that. Does Evergreen International make the referral to that separate program?
That's how I got the referral.
But I don't think that they do that anymore. I really don't.
They don't do what anymore, Jayce?
Make that referral.
Uh, huh. But somehow, the word is still getting out that there's a program there [at BYU].
And it's electroshock?
And, so, how recently have you heard about it?
I know it was within the last two years.
Within the last two years. So that is still occurring on the campus of Brigham Young University?
I believe that's it's still going on now. I know it is. Because my friend, Jimmy, who went through Evergreen, he's, like, "No, that doesn't happen anymore." A lot of people think that that's been stopped. But how secretive it was. I'm pretty sure the doctor didn't give me his real name.
So you've heard about it within the past two years?
It's still happening?
Um, hm. I know it is. It is.
It's interesting. I've heard that, too. But, actually, you're the first person that's been able to substantiate the fact that it's happening within the past two years.
What type of methodologies does Evergreen International use as far as helping people to move away from being gay?
Well, first of all you have to separate yourself from anything and everything that's gay. Do not discuss it with your family, with anyone. You gotta keep it within yourself. Mostly it's prayer, fasting, and group therapy.
Group therapy by who?
Evergreen sponsors groups all throughout the U. S. Actually, throughout whatever. They say the world. I'm not sure that is. They used to have a group here in Vegas. [Those who go] have either claimed to be cured or fallen deeply into homosexuality or whatever. They have annual conferences.
Where do they have their conferences at?
This year they had it at the Joseph Smith Memorial, which is owned by the [Mormon] church.
No, it's actually at church headquarters in Salt Lake City.
And that's the same place they did the electroshock?
No, no. BYU is where the electroshock therapy was. The Evergreen conferences either happen in LDS chapels or right at church headquarters. I have their most recent ... . This just came in the mail the other day. They ask me for money, of course. And then there's a report of their conference.
Is this something that I could have?
I appreciate it very, very much.
I think Evergreen ... . Their intentions are pure. In our Mormon subculture they're really trying to do what they think is right. And they really have moved away from the aversion therapy.
What do they tell you to do with feelings about being gay, other than isolate it inside yourself? What else?
Well, they keep saying that if you work on your relationship with your father that [the feelings] will not necessarily disappear, but they will just become less and less.
While the tape is on, I feel that I need to help with this myth. One of the reasons I think we, as gay men, have difficulty connecting with our fathers is because we are gay. The reason we have difficulty relating with our fathers is because [we're] a gay person trying to create connection points with a straight person. [But your church] says that it's the relationship and the lack of connection points that causes gay. And what I say as a therapist is that it's being gay that causes the lack of connection points with the father. It's just the opposite of what [your church] says. They don't get it and they don't want to get it. They've chosen a position and that's what it is. But it's very hard for a young gay child to relate to a heterosexual father because you don't want to do anything that they want you to do. Your tastes are different.
And so they have it opposite. They think it's that lack of inter-relating that makes gay, when it's gay that makes that lack of inter-relating. And that's very sad because they're deluding and harming an awful lot of people with this false position.
Yeah, they are.
My brother, who's also gay, he's been to Evergreen. But I don't think he's done aversion [therapy]. Right now he's on his mission to Singapore. We have so many similarities in the fact that I thought that I was cured before my mission, and that's where he's at right now. And I just worry that when he comes back he's going to try really hard and maybe even go through the aversion thing. And that's really the biggest motivation for me to talk to you today because I don't want that to happen to him.
OK. You've been very, very helpful.
Anything else you need to add?
I really worry about all the Mormon kids who are taught to believe that they're not valid. And how wrong that is. And how often it is that when it comes out to your family, how they walk away from you. And that's been the case for me.
Once you tell your family, there's an alienation that occurs? And that alienation is supported by the church?
I don't know that it's necessarily supported by the church, but by our [Mormon] culture. You have to differentiate. They're not one and the same exactly.
[But] families end up being separated?
In July, when my family figured out that I really was homosexual–my dad and step mom, at least ... . She used to have contact with me and [has now] made it really difficult for me to see my siblings because they're worried that ... . I don't know what they're worried about.
They're afraid it's contagious.
That's it's contagious. And, well, if they really knew that they have a[nother] gay son and my sister, who claims to be bisexual ... . Maybe it is contagious. I don't think so.
It may be genetic.
What's that feel like to have that [alienation] happen to you?
It's hard, you know. This Christmas was really hard. And Thanksgiving was not easy. This is the first time I've ever been alienated [from] them. But, you know ... .
What helps you to go on? What gives you hope?
I have a really good mom. I really do.
Your real mom.
Yeah. She's wonderful. And she's not Mormon, God bless her, because that's the only thing that's kept me sane. When you don't have any options you just have to go forward, you know. And I just have hope that one day they'll realize that they're wrong. But I've never been really close to my father, anyway. The hardest part is just being separated from my sisters. But when they turn 18 they're not going to walk away from me. It's been really hard on them, the separation. They've always looked to me as a friend and a father figure because my father's not been there for any of us.
I want to ask you a question. I've heard reports lately of young gay men going into LDS Social Services here in Las Vegas and also being counseled in regard to changing their sexual orientation. Is that true?
Uh, huh. My best friend, Phil ... . And that's a whole 'nother story in itself. He recently had gone there.
[Who is] this the person [at LDS Social Services] that's doing it? What is his name?
And he's the head of LDS Social Services?
I'm pretty sure he's the director here in the [Las Vegas] valley.
Is he doing the reparative therapy here?
[pause] Yeah. I mean, he's a nice man. But, yeah.
He's the one that Phil is seeing?
Well, Phil had seen him. But I tried to prevent him going back there again.
And when they do the reparative here [at the LDS Social Services in Las Vegas] how do they do it?
When I was seeing [Perry] here he was mostly just talking about my childhood–there's a lot of trauma there. Talking about my relationship with my father. Basically, that's [Perry's] big push, that if you work on your relationship with your father you'll be fine. If you don't act upon your gay [feelings].
They tell you not to act on your gay feelings. How are you supposed to do that? By what methods?
Well, you've always been taught that sacrifice ... . There's great honor in it.
So what are you told to do with those feelings?
Just not act upon them and try to date girls and try to be physical with girls. Which is kind of a paradox, because all our lives we've been taught that chastity is so important and you should barely even kiss before you get married, let alone anything else.
But if you're gay it's OK to go the whole way?
Yeah. Exactly. And we've all tried. And it doesn't work.
So it is happening here in Vegas up to the present time, and this is January 17, 2000.
Um, hm. Yeah.
What are your feelings when you know that?
It makes me so mad.
Because they are stunting these people's potential.
They're stunting these people's potential? Explain how.
When you have to put all your efforts into trying to overcome your homosexuality, you can't focus on anything else. You can't get through school, your relationships with other people become second fiddle because you have this one goal. And if you never are able to achieve it, and yet you're always constantly working on it ... . I just .. . I'm just not well for that. And it's been a problem for me. Up until recently I haven't been able to focus on school or anything because I've had this one goal. And you're told that there's honor in working on that one goal because that will make you a valid Mormon person, a valid, normal person.
Let's follow that thought a little bit more. What if you don't ascribe? What if you don't do it? What are the consequences then?
Well, if you act upon [your gay feelings] you will be excommunicated. Generally, your family will walk away from you. You won't be saved, you won't receive exaltation.
So there's a spiritual threat?
Uh, huh. It's damnation. It's the sin second to murder. So there's a lot of consequences.
And they're scary consequences.
They are. Your whole life you're raised to believe this one way of thinking and that all other ways of thinking are wrong. And no matter how much [other people] try to tell you that they're right, you know that they're wrong. There's the underlying [belief], "We are the only true way and everyone else will try to convince you otherwise, but be careful and avoid all other things. Don't mingle with outsiders." There's a lot of mind control going on.
Can you talk about that? Mind control. In what way, Jayce?
I think that you're tainted when you try to look at other ways of thinking.
Or you're told that it's not OK to look at other ways of thinking?
Uh, huh. And if you do, you're looking at it from a perspective of trying to figure out how that's wrong. Comparing it to our way of thinking, pulling it apart and making it wrong. You don't really have a lot of capacity to see other ways, to see other options. And to accept yourself is not an option. To think that maybe you were born that way and there's no way to change and you should just be OK with yourself. That's not an option.
What do you think, Jayce?
Well, I know that's wrong.
When you say that's wrong, does that mean that you believe you were born that way?
I was born that way. I was
by I like girls now - 10/28/2008
All these negative stories by the main stream press about shock therapy to cure homosexuals has forced me to take a stand. I used to be gay, but now I am straight, thanks to electro shock therapy.
You see, when I was a young man, I liked men. Then, my bishop caught me at the gay bar (I'm not sure what he was doing there wearing assless chaps) and he chastised me and forced me to partake of electro shock therapy to cure me of my homosexual urges. It worked. I started hanging out at regular bars and scorde with tons of women. I love sex with women. I can't get enough of them. I especially like multiple sex partners, and watching lesbian action.
Then my bishop sent me back to electro shock therapy to cure me of my desires for multiple sex partners outside the bounds of marriage. So after that, I only had sex with women who were married. The bishop got mad at me because the women aren't married to me. So now he is working with me to only have sex with a woman I am married to. I found a loophole in D&C 132, but the bishop countered it with Official Declaration 1.
Anyway, the bottom line is shock therapy works.
Blashoodaloom - 08/28/2008
He got caught in a BYU Security sting doing gay "foot tap" signaling from a toilet stall in the Y-Center. He was "arrested" and taken to the Security Deptartment basement in the Administration Building and grilled for hours.
BYU Security brought his wife in - and who knows what else happened. Later on, he eventually "came out" and left his hetero facade behind. I heard his amazing BYU Gestapo gay bashing story many years later when I happened to hire him for a massage at Breitenbush Hot Springs in Oregon - not recognizing his name. During the massage (all professional) I mentioned that his name sounded vaguely familiar to me. We traced our globe trotting paths back in time until they crossed at BYU and Heritage Halls back in 1971-72.
Being gay is challenging enough all by itself. Being a gay Mormon is a fair description of hell on earth. What would Jesus do - with gays? Throw the first stone? Christian/Mormon hypocrisy is never so blatant and visible as when a gay child of God comes by - attempting to mind his own business.
I was forced to have electroshock aversion therapy by the Catholic school I was attending in england as a 17 year old in 1973. I was gay before it happened and a totally screwed up angry gay guy when it finished.
I have had multiple bouts of severe depression over the years. They showed me pictures of my then boyfriend and gave me electric shocks so as to turn me against him. I loved my boyfriend and withstood the pain throughout the process. I was eventually discharged as they said I was not trying hard enough to detach myself from my boyfriend.
Well I never asked for this treatment and I only managed to get it stopped by turning 18. I think in england it has stopped. It horrifies me to believe it still seems to go on in the USA. - 11/29/2010 - Catholic gay boy
All of these shock thereapy stories whetehr they are tru or not has noghtin to do with Mormons. Even if they are true, just because one or a few people decide seomthing does not mean its what Mormons or their church believes. For people to listen to this and then place all this animosity toward Mormons or their churh for something that a few people may have done is absurd at best. These so called Doctors are men, so are all men believing in shock therapy? They are white, are all white people shoch therapists, butsince they are Mormon allegedly in the basement (underground) BYU is condoning it? I know lots of Mormons in CA and this is nothing for what I know they stand for. - 10/01/2010 - gees
You guys are just a bunch of dick-weilding perverts, wanting to screw anything that moves and thinks like you do. ROT IN HELL MF-ing BASTARDS!!!! - 09/30/2010 - Moronic
I am not a mormon. But, as a gay man. I had sex with a lot of mormons. They live secret lives as gays. They cruise the parks; driving in circles in their cars. They want quick encounters, and no relationships.
They live in fear, all the time. Mostly, they want sex with non-mormons, for they never know if another mormon will rat them out. Truly, unbelievable, in this day and age. I even had sex with a nephew of a Utah senator. Amazing, how this happened. - 04/27/2010 - Gay in SLC
This is simply sickening, both the original events adn many of these comments on the way down here. I have no problem with the Mormon church, but these are the kinds of experiments that were performed in concentration camps. This is the exact situation of the concentration camps as well - one group is believed to be inferior to another more "perfect" group of people (homosexuals and heterosexuals, respectively) while the "perfect" group attempts to rid the world of these "inferiors".
As for being "cured" by shock therapy, note a single bit in this story our lovely "convert" has given - when they were a young man they were gay and then over time (the time it took to provide this EST treatment) they became straight, then were having "problems" with multiple sex partners, etc. All that this says is that they were promiscuous and, as are many young people when hormones start to flow, according to psychological research, found themselves attracted to someone of the same sex.
As much as I would hate to admit it to the bigots out there, sometimes it really is just a phase - but not as often as they would like to think. As for just magically deciding not to be gay, please explain how to easily change your entire outlook on life and yourself, since logic, experience, and science have said that this is by no means easy. You don't choose not to be gay, you choose to IGNORE those feelings which are a part of your very foundation. It's the same as simply denying the fact that one is depressed - you can put up a fairly decent facade, but in the end you are still depressed. Logic, people, logic! - 04/24/2010 - Sickening
Well it is not just the mormons practiced this.
It was discoverd that i was gay at a young age. One nasty autum afternoon i was driven to the church and we went into the basement where there were several other teen boys. a bunch of beds were in a line. anyway i was told to change into these blue pajamas.
The night came a and gone in the morning i was awakend and was brought into this other room. there was a chair like a larger dentist chair with padding and leather restraints. i was placed into thos chair and strapped into it.
A older man came to me and placed electrodes to my chest, on my scrotum a ring was pulled over my penis. also a leather band was placed on the rim of my head. and a gag was put into my mouth.
infront of me was a tv and shown was gay and straight porn. the treatments were miserable.
hell once i actualy ejaculated.
in a nut shell i am now a very happy hetro. - 01/24/2010 - White and gay and baptist
I have a friend on Face Book who was the last to undergo it. He told me how the success ratio was really high (4 young men before him committed suicide). He also mentioned how he was encouraged to look at gay porn so as to give him a referece point on what was and wasn't acceptable. Unbelievable! - 12/07/2009 - AmIWhiteYet?
These are all Bogus articles! Especially the stories following "The Jayce Cox Interview." Very fitting for a gay guy with the last name of COX(cks). - 08/28/2008 - anon
First of all I think it is really sad how everyone loves to shift blame to everyone but themselves. When I was younger I struggled with transgender behavior. I have never gone to counseling, I have never admitted this to anyone, and this is the first time I have ever written about it. I am an active member of the Mormon church.
I would like to emphasize that I do not blame my church for any feelings I have, I do not blame anyone else for them either. This is something I take full responsability for. Most importantly, I was not born this way.
I can definitively say that I feel the way I do because I choose to do so. It is absolutely 100% my fault. I find it incredibly insulting to even consider that I am not completely in charge of who I'm attracted to or what I decide to do.
In my spare time I spend a great deal of time learning about human interactions. I study them and it has given me a great deal of perspective about myself. The thing that annoys me the absolute most about the whole Gay lifestyle is the idea that you are born that way and there is nothing you can do about it. To me, a person who struggles with very similar desires (I had a deep attraction to transexuals for a long time) it seems more than obvious that this is nothing more than an easy way out. How could you possibly change something you were born with? It seems to me like the best possible situation, you can eliminate all personal responsibility with that statement. What other things in your life do you actively try and pass that same judgement on? Not a lot. I rarely hear it in any other context.
For example, Lets say Joe gets set up on a blind date with a woman named Suzie. Suzie has blond hair and immediately Joe can not bring himself to be attracted to the otherwise beautiful woman. At the end of the date Joe says to Suzie, "I'm sorry, you're nice and all, but I'm just not attracted to women with blond hair. I'm just not, I was born that way."
I think everyone can agree that this situation is all about personal choice on Joe's part. You might say that is a silly example but you can do it with pretty much anything. The fact is that attraction is all in your head. Its based on the ideas you create and the conclusions you derive over the course of your life. The only way YOU can change anything is if YOU truly want to. If you're clinging to this idea that you're born a certain way then you're not 100% committed to a change of any sort. You're testing the waters to see if you can handle the change but you've got your back door to run out of if you decide you're gonna fail.
Here is what I've learned about same sex attraction from my own personal experience:
Girls are scary sometimes.
I'm a guy, I understand other guys.
A vagina can be a very mysterious thing.
Girls can be manipulative, overbearing, and just complete jerks. (Guys can be too by the way.)
Again, this same sex attraction seems like the easy way out. I already know how to masturbate, its pretty safe to say I could handle that if another guy was involved. The whole vagina thing, that means I'm actually gonna have to try and learn a new trick or two. Girls think differently than guys, so if I'm gonna go off and try and be with one I'm going to have to try and learn to do that too. I guess it would be easier to just be with someone nearly exactly like myself. I think more times than not being gay is a direct result of bad experiences with the opposite sex or just an inability to want to change anything at all about yourself. You can successfully become attracted to sheep if you think about it long enough, but whatever you do, don't tell yourself you were born with an insatiable love for the furry animals.
Along the course of my life my vision of myself changes constantly, I have no idea what being born as something or something else would be like because I'm constantly changing. I know people who are basically exactly the same throughout their life though. I have a friend that from a very young age was basically addicted to video games. He plays them incessantly and has essentially ruined his life over it. It has caused him to become overweight, he can't hold a steady job and his social life is entirely based on instant messenger. I'm sure he could blame his situation on anything but according to the philosophy stated in this article he could very easily just decide that he was born with this addiction. That solves all of his problems because all of the sudden its not his fault. Sounds like a great idea right? I wonder if he could get other people to agree with him, maybe rally support. Maybe he could even get a governmental stipend to help take care of him as he ages so he can continue comfortably in the lifestyle he was born into.
is it possible that this addiction is merely something he has complete power over? I can tell you for sure that no one can fix this for him unless he decides that he wants to change. You can lust over anything, a video game, a person (guy or girl), a toaster, clothing, whatever, but in the end you created this lust in your mind, you rationalized it, you decided it was what you wanted.
So now you've defined the problem, what do you do from here?
Let's say you're gay and you'd like to not be gay anymore. Here is what I'd suggest you do. Stop being gay and find another past time. Don't hide in your room and decide you're gonna be gay by yourself and not act on it. That doesn't count. This change is going to happen in your mind, it isn't going to be anywhere else. You have to want it, you have to actively seek an alternative too. Anyway, don't go off checking out the same sex and contemplating how you can ravish them. Think about something else entirely and decide that hey, guess what, that isn't an option anymore. Go find yourself an option you're okay with and focus on that for a change. You'll be able to change your mind for sure, guaranteed. Plus, what is better is that you did it and everything you think in your head and even how you feel for another person..... absolutely 100% your doing. You can choose to feel, become, or do whatever you want. That is the truth and you don't have to be of any religion to understand that. - 08/18/2009 - Guess what, everything is your fault!
I am not a Mormon, nor was I ever. But, I can attest to the fact that many men cruised the parks, and playgrounds, at night, looking for men to have relations with. Being gay, myself, I had lots of anonymous sex with Mormon men, who were looking for one night encounters. I often marveled at this, for these men were members of a respected church. It seemed to smack of hypocrisy to belong to a church, such as the LDS, and at night looking for gay sex in the parks, and cruising around in their cars. Anyway, that was my observation, and it didn't stop me from having sex with them. - 10/20/2008 - In the parks of SLC
I have delt with these kind of feelings all my life. I have never gone to any therapy for it nor talked to anyone about me personaly except my wife and a few close friends that I felt that I could trust. I have five children and I am glad that I have a great wife and kids, but I still deal with gay feelings. First they said that if I masterbate then I will be gay. I do not know a man out there that has not or does not masterbate. I tried to get assistance with this, but no one could tell me what to do and to make it work. Now I am dealing with pron on top of it all. I want to love my wife the way that she deserves to be loved, but I still have this looking for a man to be close to all the time. - 09/04/2008 - Chad
Just watched "A Clockwork Orange" last night... this is very similar. Messed up stuff. - 03/24/2008 - anonymous NOM
How can a church ruin lives like that..it is totally disgusting - 03/20/2008 - Disgusted
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