Widow Sues President Thomas S Monson for Harassment

I saw him once in 1990 at the old Mountain Spa in Midway, Utah.

My wife and I had been swimming in the hotsprings there and were the only people there when he and his wife showed up. I sat next to him for two hours and neither of us spoke to each other.

By the way he wears black socks and dress shoes with his swimsuit.

"Remember that faith and doubt cannot exist in the same mind at the same time, for one will dispel the other.

"Should doubt knock at your doorway, just say to those skeptical, disturbing, rebellious thoughts: 'I propose to stay with my faith, with the faith of my people. I know that happiness and contentment are there, and I forbid you, agnostic, doubting thoughts, to destroy the house of my faith. I acknowledge that I do not understand the processes of creation, but I accept the fact of it. I grant that I cannot explain the miracles of the Bible, and I do not attempt to do so, but I accept God’s word. I wasn’t with Joseph, but I believe him. My faith did not come to me through science, and I will not permit so-called science to destroy it'" ((Thomas Monson, "The Lighthouse of the Lord: A Message to the Youth of the Church," Ensign, February 2001).

Who says the church is anti-intellectual?

It seems to me that the church knows that its secrets are out of the closet. Anyone with 10 minutes and an Internet connection can find out any number of problems with the church's claims. Monson's advice here seems to be a response to that growing knowledge of the truth, and that response is a simple call for people to shut off their brains and listen only to the brethren.

Shameful.

I don't believe in God, and God certainly doesn't believe in me. (laughter)

I have spent most of my life living in good old Mormon Mecca. I was a foster child. Wow was it hard being taunted in grade school about how I didn't have a "Forever Family".

The majority of foster homes I lived in were Mormon. I wasn't a daughter to my various foster families and they made it clear to me that I wasn't a daughter of God. I became an unmarried mother at the age of 20 while in college.

I so loved my son I wanted to be the best mother possible. The pregnancy was unplanned, but I had choices and chose to raise my son. I finished college and entered the work force. Because my lifestyle was not of the "Mormon Norm" I encountered much humiliation and was discriminated against.

The Mormons always considered me unworthy, undesirable , trash, and more. I worked hard. 4 years ago I married for the first time. My son and I are close and I now have a grandson. However, in the eyes of the Mormon's that surround me I am simply not good enough.

On Saturday my family and I were in a traditionally non-Mormon second rate coffee shop having lunch. A man came up and spent some time with us. His name was Monson...yep the new prophet dude.

He was not arrogant, he was not intimidating. He was tender and kind. He felt I was worth his time. His showing up was unexpected as well as his warmth.

I must admit I was stunned he would even bother with a skinny 43 year old woman sipping on coffee. I liked him. I am still an atheist, but he did heal some of the pain of my Mormon experiences. If the prophet of God has time for me, what does that mean? (snicker)

Editor's Note: Today I contacted barbApplebaum on the phone to verify the story, location, times, etc. She actually Googled "Monson" to verify his identity and hit this site, thus her response. Monson visited and chatted for about 5-6 minutes and did not mention the LDS Church, but was "kind, warm and friendly." She was surprised that he would go out of his way to introduce himself and visit. barbApplebaum added, "I didn't see any angels come down or trumpets blow, but I appreciated his kindness."

In one sense, I still see him as a sincere man trying to be kind to other people. However, working in the church office building and seeing his other arrogant side was an eye opener. His milk has to be extra chilled especially for him before church functions. You dare put anything in his office back in the wrong place or make some other mistake about what he wants and you're likely to get fired.

I found myself thinking, "This is a prophet? This guy is about as prophetic as I am."

There is no special revelation, no great spiritual epiphany. All he is, is a guy who has moved up the beurocratic ladder, which is largely a by product of being involved with it his entire life.

I look at all of these guys, and almost all of them are inter-related in some way, somewhere in their family tree.

You will have your occasional pop-star, like Uchdorf, who the brethen realize has a charisma about him; but the vast majority of them are mearly life long chums and direct or distant relations.

Monson is no spiritual figure. He is an administrator, and autocrat.

I cant imagine what he will be like dealing with the public, with his INSISTANCE on giving talks as if addressing an audience of 12 yr olds. I have NEVER liked listening to Monson talks. As an adult, I cannot take that tone and demeanor seriously at all. Does he expect that act to fly with the world?

10. You may get empty platitudes, but at least they sound vaguely poetic.

9. Someone had to stand up against improperly chilled milk.

8. Anyone who goes mano a mano with the Stasi has to be pretty tough.

7. All those widows can't be wrong about him.

6. "I don't know that we teach it" replaced by cute stories of Little Tommy and his train set.

5. If he can stand firm against reason and science, so can I.

4. Tough call, but I prefer Monson's kindergarten sing-song voice to Hinckley's homespun droning.

3. It's high time pigeon-raising got the respect it deserves, damn it!

2. Who's more spiritual: newspaper executive or PR flack? No contest.

1. I for one can never get enough of Monson's humble self-congratulation.

A spokesperson from LDS Hospital in Salt Lake City confirmed that President Thomas S. Monson had been admitted to the hospital for treatment of a broken radius and ulna over the weekend.

"Yes, it's pretty bad," said church public affairs spokesman Don LaFevered. "Apparently, years of publicly patting himself on the back for his acts of selfless service have taken their toll on his aging bones. From what I understand, he was in mid-sentence in recounting a visit he made to an elderly widow when both bones suddenly snapped."

Doctors determined that the self-congratulation began many years ago when Monson gave a tanker car from a childhood train set to an impoverished neighbor. "Most people can let that kind of thing go, but not Tommy," said DeLoy Larsen, the childhood neighbor. "Every time I saw him, he would launch into the story, sometimes even wiping away a tear or two. Now mind you, it was a nice tanker car, but look where it led."

The compulsion continued through Monson's teen years and almost caused a medical disqualification from the U.S. Navy. But he was able to serve his country (and pat himself on the back for it) before returning and assuming the position of bishop in what he repeatedly has described as "the largest ward in the church."

It was the years as bishop that seem to have turned the behavior from occasional habit to obsession. The multitudes of widows in that ward provided innumerable opportunities to recount stories of Monson's legendary kindness: hospital rooms, canaries, ward dinners; we are all familiar with the stories, and each recounting stripped away another layer of cartilage from Monson's joints and weakened the bones that much more until they snapped.

Perhaps the most serious stress to Monson's bones came with the fall of the Iron Curtain. Monson's work in the former East Germany brought several conference talks and BYU devotionals recounting his leading role in defeating Communism. Former East German dictator Egon Krenz, with whom Monson worked closely, recounted that as early as 1985, Monson's arm exhibited signs of involuntary muscular contraction. "Yes, it was painful to watch as this man struggled to control an arm that seemed to have a will of its own. Of course, I told him he just needed to stop telling the stories, and the problem would resolve itself."

Church leaders met early today to discuss Monson's future as a general conference speaker. An unnamed source said the brethren were worried that, without the self-adulation, Monson would be reduced to reciting bad Edgar Guest poetry.

I saw Monson speak from the Marysville, Washington Stake Center a few years ago. This was also broadcast to many other stake centers. I had the exact same reaction as you but I was still going to church at the time. I recall emailing a friend saying he just kept telling story after story after story and there was no point. He was a Chatty Cathy doll and he kept pulling his own string.

He did, however, retain his title as the Apostle of Alliteration.

[sic] I was searching for a picture from Prs. Monson. Then I saw your crazy photo and your stories?!? I know a lot of stories from Prs. Monson, because I am a part of it! And I know why he is telling them. Because it is the Testamony of a man who is doing the Lords will.

To tell something about Prs. Monson you have to know the miracle in Eastern Germany which the Lord was doing through his Instrument Thomas S. Monson. If somebody had a huge part in knocking down the iron curtain, than it was Thomas S. Monson. I was kneeling 1985 in the sealing room of the Freiberg Temple with my parents and my brother and sisters and we had still the Eastern Communist regime, when we were sealed together as a family. What a big thing when you realize that the communists destroy churches and killed their own people while running out of their country. If you want to make fun about that Apostle then you dont know the Lord. He, the lord knows Prs. Monson and the service he did for him. Because he made that world wide miracle for the lord come true, to work out a plan to build a temple in a communist country and bless the country that the people had a chance to gain all the blessings of the gospel and all material blessings of the western world. So if you make comics about Prs. Monson you also have to make such pictures of Prs. Ronald Reagan ("Mr. Gorbatschow please open this gate ...") or Prs. Kennedy ("Ich bin ein Berliner"). Now I live in Frankfurt/Main in "Westgermany" having a super job in a german Investment Bank and being every day happy about the risk that Prs. Monson was taking while coming behind the "Iron Curtain" and spent love and hope to people in a dark country.

So, I hope to never see your pictures in the www again, because the only one that you hurt are yourself and the Lord. And please solve your problems that give you the idea to open up such a page.

Two phallic personal anecdotes told by our next Prophet.

While on my mission, Monson visited us and told us a story where he got naked. It has exhibitionism and phallic-size connotations. I was not impressed, and felt the story was totally out of place to tell missionaries, particularly in mixed company.

Here’s the first story, in my recollection. He was pheasant hunting, and when he shot one, it fell into the river. His dog would not go in because of the cold. So Monson stripped off all his clothes, jumped in, and retrieved the “bird”. When got back on shore, he saw two hunters on the skyline of the nearby hill. Bare naked, Monson held up the “bird” called to the hunters said “Ain’t it a beauty!” Then one of the hunters, in a female voice replied, “You must be very proud of yourself!”

Cold water does not make a male particularly proud of his maleness; except for Tom. He must have a very large priesthood “bird”.

Here’s the second story. In a General Priesthood Meeting, 2002 or 2003, Elder Monson gave us a visual. It has masturbation connotations.

“One evening I decided it was time to take a leisurely bath; so I filled the tub with a lot of warm water, and then I peacefully lay down in the tub for a few moments of relaxation. I was lying there just pondering [pounding], when the soapy water reached the level of the overflow drain and began to flow through it. Can you imagine my surprise when, with my eyes focused on that drain, Herman [the pet snake] came swimming out, right for my face? I yelled out to my wife, ‘Frances! Here comes Herman!’ ”

Both stories have a naked male hollering at a clothed female! Lord have mercy.

I pride myself in my own little Monson story that took place 25 + years ago.

When I lived in SLC, my family held a reunion of sorts at The Homestead in Midway, UT. Someone in the family mentioned that some of the GAs lived nearby and sometimes visited there.

A little later in the day, my brother came up to me all excited, saying he had spotted President Monson soaking in the hot mineral baths.

So, I just HAD to go look. I arrived to see him walking from the pool to the men's locker room. I followed him in there, and saw him walking toward someplace in sort of a hurry. I didn't want to be too obvious, but I wondered what it would be like to say, "I saw a GA completely naked!"

I watched him from across the room, trying not to appear too interested. He seemed in a hurry, and kind of nervous. He disappeared before I could see where he went, so I never got to see him TOTALLY naked. (Rats!)

But I do recall he was a big guy, and looked like he was pretty out of shape, and could use more exercise.

At that time, I was a TBMer (True Believing Mormon), so I chalked up his out-of-shape figure to being so busy doing GA work that he must have had very little time to exercise.

Ha. Ha. Ha.

One of the first "stirrings of doubt" I had was when I was firmly ensconced in the box, and it involved Monson. I was teaching seminary in Mesa and Monson came down there and spoke in our stake conference.

I liked his talk. Then we moved back to Utah a few months later (1989). That year, Monson was the speaker at the annual "Night with a General Authority" they have every year for CES (Church Education System) people. It was always held in the assembly hall on temple square.

Anyway, Monson spoke. We were up in the balcony and could see him well. He was sitting there with his wife, and you could tell they didn't like each other very well. Then, when Monson stood to speak you could actually see him "turn on" and he proceeded to give a similar talk as he had in Mesa.

His inauthentic facade and duplicity was glaring! I wanted to puke, and I was a firm believer then! I went away quite disturbed. I even discussed it with my wife, and she also felt him turn on, and turn off. His wife was also interesting.

Alex Trebek: Tonight we welcome to our show Tom, who works in Salt Lake City as an executive for a nonprofit organization. What kinds of things do you do in your work, Tom?

Tom: Oh, you know, the usual: quietly going about easing the burden of the poor and widowed, comforting the dying. But really, I prefer not to bring the spotlight of attention to myself. Did I mention the widowed?

Alex: Yes, you did, Tom. Let's play Jeopardy!

Tom: I'll take American Poets for $100.

Alex: This poet is considered the leading exponent of transcendentalism among American poets.

Tom: Who is Edgar Guest?

Alex: No, Tom, I'm sorry, but the answer is Walt Whitman.

Tom: I'll take American Poets for $200.

Alex: The work of this poet has been described as "dull, pretentious, pointless child-like paragraphs ... simply nothing."

Tom: Who is Walt Whitman?

Alex: No, I'm sorry, the judges were looking for Edgar Guest.

Tom: Maybe I should try a different category. I'll take Ancient America Speaks for $100, Alex.

Alex: This theory suggests that the Book of Mormon is confined to a relatively small geographical area in Central America that was already populated when the Nephites arrived.

Tom: What? Who's saying that?

Alex: Remember, all responses must be in the form of a question.

Tom: Oh, sorry. I'll have to ask Midgley-Welch about that when I get home. I'll take Shakespeare for $100.

Alex: Polonius gave this famous piece of advice to his son, Laertes, in Hamlet.

Tom: What is "fake it till you make it"?

Alex: No, the correct answer is "To thine own self be true."

Tom: I'll take Religious Leaders for $100.

Alex: This 20th century Christian was known the world over for acts of self-sacrifice, humility, and charity, including working with the poorest of the poor in bettering their lives.

Tom: Who is me?

Alex: I'm sorry, we were looking for Mother Teresa.

Tom: Oh, her. Well, she did what she could, I suppose, but look at our welfare program! Did I mention the widowed?

Alex: Can we get back to the game?

Tom: I'll take Definitions for $100.

Alex: This word is defined as "an attitude of superiority manifested in an overbearing manner or in presumptuous claims or assumptions."

Tom: What is humility?

Alex: No, the answer is arrogance.

Tom: You know, Alex, I'm getting a little upset here. Everything is upside down here, which reminds me of that wonderful book, Alice in Wonderland. I wouldn't have come here if I'd known you'd take the plain and precious and twist it to suit your own purposes. As the poet Wordsworth said, "Our birth is but a sleep and a forgetting ..."

Alex: I think we're out of time.

Tom: Hearts were gladdened, spirits were lifted, and stomachs were filled.

Alex: We'll see you next time on Jeopardy.

Tom: And that canary was her companion for the rest of her life.

Alex: Really, Tom, it's time to go.

Tom: Comrade Honecker told me that he had complete trust in the church, and we were able to build our temple.

Alex: Security!

Tom [being dragged away]: The tanker car was my favorite.

I got into trouble when I was teaching at BYU and we were discussing rhetorical style. Conference was approaching, and I mentioned that certain speakers have noticeable patterns. I used the example of Thomas Monson, and I said that he will always use at least one of the following:

- a story about a widow in his ward when he was bishop of "the largest ward in the church."

- a story about when he was a boy and in which he refers to himself as "Tommy."

- the "passive triplet" where he puts together a string of 3 passive verb constructions: "hearts were gladdened, spirits were lifted, and stomachs were filled."

After conference, several students mentioned how they had suddenly gotten the giggles during Monson's talks. Oh, well. I'm headed for outer darkness, anyway.

I saw Monson speak from the Marysville, Washington Stake Center a few years ago. This was also broadcast to many other stake centers. I recall emailing a friend saying he just kept telling story after story after story and there was no point. He was a Chatty Cathy doll and he kept pulling his own string.

He did, however, retain his title as the Apostle of Alliteration.

This is a 100% true account as far as my brain can recollect, names have been changed to protect the innocent. The guilty can fend for themselves as their names go unaltered. Go with me to the year 1995....

Working at the Church Office Building in church catering and then later at the Lion House opened my eyes to just how human the brethren are, and in fact, one could say helped my testimony to “mature” because it was often in spite of the humanity of the Lord’s servants that I knew the gospel was true. After all, if the Lord could call men with weakness and frailties common to the human race, to positions of church leadership then I might just have a chance at making it, not into leadership, but into the top kingdom.

There are little things which I would categorize as minor inconsistencies that I observed such as the almost nazi-like mannerisms of one Thomas S. Monson. My first experience with Elder Monson was when I was working at the COB during the busy Christmas banquet season. My job was to set up tables and chairs, arrange place settings, put down silverware, etc. Occasionally, we were asked to do some food prep. Unlike for any other General Authorities that I recall, there were always “special instructions” for Elder Monson whenever he was in attendance. He always had to have an ice-cold milk below a certain temperature, and there was invariably a carton of milk in the kitchen’s refrigerator with a thermometer sticking out of it for Elder Monson.

I once road the elevator all the way to the 26th floor with Elder Monson. Although I was too intimidated to make conversation, he did speak to me cordially, but did not strike me as being a very sincere person, let alone an apostle of the Lord. It wasn’t until later when I worked at the Lion House that I began to understand his reputation among the employees who had had the misfortune of working in any capacity under his tutelage.

I was present for an event which shattered my idealization of “the Brethren” forever. We had always been taught the unwritten order of things as it applies to church employment. Although not directly employed by the church, it was nonetheless our obligation to make sure to cater to the whims and demands of the brethren when those demands were exacted upon us. This lesson was driven home at an awful price that culminated in a dramatic end.

It was President Monson’s birthday and the quorums of the twelve and the seventy were going to surprise Elder Monson with a cake in a meeting to be held in his honor that afternoon. We didn’t receive the cake order until the morning of the event. The order came down to an employee by the name of Beth who was the pie and cake baker. Beth was not exactly what you would classify as a stellar true believing member of the church. Years of church employment and personal problems had left her somewhat disgruntled and jaded against the church and she resented and resisted the unwritten order of things.

On this particular day, she had several other cake orders to fill and she was falling behind. I could hear her resentful grumbling from the Pantry kitchen, and her resolution that went something like, “Well, Elder Monson is just going to have to wait for his precious cake, because I have other orders that have been on the books for months to do.” So, she saved the cake for last. It was a beautiful 3-layer chocolate cake which came fresh out of the oven with minutes to spare before the Administration Building employees were to pick it up. Normally a cake such as that would need a few hours of cooling time before it could be frosted, but alas, there simply wasn’t time. She slathered on the chocolate frosting in a fit of panic, piped out some happy birthday message in frosting on the top, and threw it in a box. It was on its way and soon forgotten.

The next morning there was an “emergency staff meeting” called by Karen Hildegard, the Manager. You could tell she had been crying. She, in what must have been the few moments of composure she had been capable of mustering that whole morning, proceeded to sternly recount the fate of the cake after it left the premises. In the time which elapsed between its departure from our kitchen to when it was opened for President Monson’s delight, the entire 3-layer cake had slid off into a virtual glob of melted chocolate frosting. Apparently, no one had opened the box at the Administration Building for a preliminary inspection.

Karen continued to passionately re-enforce the policy that whenever we receive an order for a General Authority, we are to drop everything and attend to it, and to do it better than we would any other order. Her voice was several orders of magnitude in emotion above anything any of us had ever heard before and she explained it in words similar to this: “I just had a meeting with the First Presidency in my office. Do any of you have any idea what it’s like to have the entire First Presidency in your office yelling at you? I know none of you want to know what that is like, and I will *not* be in that position again.”

All of it seemed so funny up until that moment. I tried to picture Presidents Hinckley, Monson, and Faust literally yelling over a stupid cake incident. It didn’t make sense. Men of God simply do not see things in that perspective. Surely men of god, the 3 highest-ranking men in the kingdom of God on the earth, the mouthpieces of God would not make another human being, especially one which reveres and idolizes them so, feel so little as to yell at them over a stupid mistake, a mistake that wasn’t even directly her fault. Everyone who knows Karen thinks she is a wonderful, kind-hearted, level-headed cool cucumber, but on this occasion, she had come unglued. It tore me up inside to say nothing of how it must have made Beth feel for being the cause of this public rant. That one took a great deal of mental shelf space.

As Son and Heir posted a story about Tom Monson's birthday cake and the First Presidency, I thought I would share my Tom Monson story.

I served in the mission office for one of the current apostles. Because my family is TBM LDS, I prefer not to be more specific about this and other personal details. As a missionary, I met Elder Monson several times and was responsible for arranging for him several newspaper interviews. I witnessed firsthand his almost superhuman memory and soft spot for elderly sisters. He remembered members he had met in the distant past, greeting them by name. It was amazing.

Someone in the know (it could have been my mission president), related how Monson had manipulated the exclusion of President Tanner from a major media event in our mission so he could be the center of attention. This was my only negative impression at that time.

At BYU, I roomed with the son of the secretary to the Quorum of Twelve. He related many GA stories. These confirm what Son and Heir and others have related concerning Brother Tom. He is insufferably demanding and insensitive.

After graduation, I went to work for a stock brokerage firm in SLC. I introduced myself to the controller of a major company owned by the LDS Church and convinced him to invest their considerable excess cash in preferred bonds. My recommendation had not been made by any of the other numerous financial advisors competing for the business and the controller was prepared to give me the business. First, though, he had to present my idea to the board, which featured Elder Monson as its resident GA.

Well, Elder Monson had a relationship with one of the top brokers in my office, who either was, or had been, a stake president. Monson approved the transaction, but asked that the business be given to the other broker. When my branch manager broke the news to me, I was heartsick. It seemed so unfair, as our firm, and this other broker, would never have gotten the business if I hadn't come up with the idea and pursued the opportunity. I was expected to step aside and concede the business and relationship to the other broker. As a concession, he gave me half of the commission on the first transaction. Ironically, he stuck it to the Church and his mark-up was more than twice what mine would have been. However, there was so much more business to come that this was little consolation to me.

At the time, I was a young father of two and a faithful Elders Quorum President. I was trying to establish my securities practice and this was my first significant break. I couldn't imagine that Elder Monson would deprive me and my family of my just reward, so I decided to contact him. As you can imagine, I was tentative, as I realized how insignificant I was in the scheme of things. However, you will never get very far in the investment world if you are passive and I was determined not to acquiesce without a fight. Somehow I got his phone number (I think it was in the directory) and with considerable apprehension dialed. He answered and I quickly introduced myself and explained my predicament. I mentioned that I had worked with him in the mission field and I was an active Latter-day Saint. I knew the probability of him redirecting the business to me was low, but I thought I would get some sympathy at the very least. Instead, he asked me if my branch manager knew what I was up to. He then threatened to shift the business to a competitor. I hastily apologized for my impertinence and ended the call.

His response mortified me. It wasn't so much that he had treated me with utter indifference, but that my livelihood was in jeopardy. The blow was worse than the one my branch manager delivered initially. It was one thing to lose a big deal, and another to lose my job altogether!

I was deeply hurt by Elder Monson's callousness and coldness. His warning was calculated to put me in my place. I felt very insignificant and vulnerable. It didn't affect my testimony of the Church, but it sure destroyed any confidence in him. My experience confirmed for me his hypocrisy. He is all platitudes. There is no substance, only self-engrandizement. Although I'm inactive and non-believing, I still wish Church members well and shudder to think of Tom Monson as their leader. Hinckley is a moral giant compared to Monson.

You know what's almost scary? His memory is so incredible, if someone relates this post to him he just may remember the incident and be able to identify who I am through inference. Guess my decision about whether to remain on the books will be taken from me. Well, Tom, they say the best revenge is living well. I wouldn't trade my life for yours for all the hokey anecdotes in the world! Your punishment is having to live with yourself.

While a couple of GA's I have met seemed like really nice people (I was very young), there is one word that describes Tom Monson perfectly.... ASSHOLE! I probably could have been dragged back to momoism without a whole lot of effort by someone (not Monson, a female could have though) but just as easily was pushed the other way. Anyway at the time I was actually questioning a few things and still feeling a whole lot of guilt for "shaming" my parents, I meet Mr. Monson. I was 18 or so and working in a gas station. He comes in, I recognize him but say nothing except hello, he sees a long haired and bearded hippie looking kid and turns into the arrogant asshole he really is. He can't even say hello! Nothing comes out of his mouth. Not hello, thanks, goodbye..... nothing. Acted bothered by everything and everybody on the planet. He came in every few days for a year or so and finally did talk after the that first time, but never more than hello. He never said thank you. I never saw him smile or did he ever seem happy. He was exactly the same to any other customers. Of course some recognized him but he never seemed interested in another soul.

Not to say his behavior pushed me over to "the dark side" but he sure as hell didn't help bring me back. Of course he had no idea of the goings on in my personal life, but if this was a man of GAWD, one of his chosen, Why was he such an asshole? My thoughts of Gawd never were that he would be rude like Brother Tommy S. I mean what would Jesus do?

I had an experience with him that was very negative. He threatened my job. It's a story I've shared on the board before. He had no compassion for me at all, and I was a faithful member (Elder's Q Prez at the time) and had assisted him several times when on my mission. (He had been mission prez for my mission about fifteen years earlier and often returned.)

While in college, I knew the son of the executive secretary to the Q of Twelve. He had many stories of Monson's arrogance and insensitivity. For instance, Monson would throw a fit if the donuts for their weekly quorum meeting weren't the kind he liked.

At the same time, he seems to have a soft spot for elderly widows. I guess he feels they're worthy of his attention.

I worked for an Architect firm in Salt Lake City who did a lot of work for the LDS Church. When we were restoring the Joseph Smith Building Downtown, Monson walk in one day and said......"Heads are going to roll if this thing isn't done on time". He was upset and angry. We all thought he was such an asshole from the way he was acting that day.

I don't have much sympathy with the Morg any more, but I must admit, I've always liked Monson. I met him once at a stake conference in Wandsworth, south London, I guess about 1989 where, as a young priest, I was acting as usher. It was a beautiful spring morning, and Monson was late, so, after we'd herded the faithful inside,we Aaronics all lay down on the grass for a spot of sunbathing. We didn't notice Monson's arrival until his entourage suddenly walked around the corner, Monson at the front. They all stopped suddenly, shocked at the sight of all these young boys spread about the lawn, ties off, shirts open, stretched out in the sun. Monson burst into laughter, slapping his knee, and yelled, "That's the way to handle stake conference!"

After the conference, we were lined up by the side door as Monson was escorted past us. Looking over his shoulder at us, he asked if we were the ushers he'd seen earlier, and then came back to shake hands with each of us, thanking us personally.

Many years ago, when I was a beardless youth, a group of us were putting on some kind of performance in the old Hotel Utah for some MIA convention. After the performance we were lounging around in a hallway, when along came Joseph Fielding Smith, and his wife, Jesse Evans Smith. He had always seemed to be a rather dour old fart to me, but he came over, shook our hands, and chatted with us amicably. He even smiled, as did his wife.

A few years ago the family of a young convert to Mormonism from my ward were heading out west to Salt Lake City. They weren't LDS, but the young man, not knowing the customs of the church, wrote Thomas Monson, asking if they could visit him while in SLC. Surprisingly, Monson called the young man, who got in touch with his family, and Monson gave them a private visit in his office, and treated them very cordially. BTW, they never did join the Morg, but they were duly impressed by Monson.

They aren't ALL assholes.

Comment Section

Thank you so much for all of the things on this website. Each one of you has done a tremendous job in proving that Joseph Smith truly is a Prophet of our Savior Jesus Christ. He once prophesied to a friend that any member of the church who is excommunicated or otherwise leaves the church will then spend the rest of his days fighting against the Church and criticizing everything that the Church does. Each one of you has fulfilled that prophecy. And do you want to know why you all come here and talk badly about the Church and how stupid and boring it is? Because each one of you has a personal testimony that your life has become a living hell since you left the Church. You are so prideful that you don't want to admit that you were wrong and ask for forgiveness and each morning you wake up wishing you could just die. You hate going home each night because the spirit is not in your house. I seriously feel sorry for each one of you. You make immature ten-year old jokes about body parts and how boring General Conference is knowing full well that one day you will stand before God and you will feel so guilty that you will beg to be sent as far away from Him as possible. And a lot of you are going to read this comment and swear at me and call me names because you are unintelligent and can't come back with any better response because you know I'm right. Well here is a challenge for all of you. Want to prove that Joseph Smith was a fake? Then never for the rest of your life mention the name of Joseph Smith again and never do anything to persecute the Church. Do that and this Church really is false. But seeing how none of you can do that, this Church is true. Thanks for increasing my testimony. - 04/30/2008 - Jay Davis

Thus sayeth some guy, the TBM's view the great and venerable work of the only true organization on the earth and do quake exceedingly as they slurpeth their icy milk. They shalt go to their bishops and shalt explain the mighty power thereof, and shalt be admonished though they no not why. - 04/29/2008 - cake_eater

Do something with your life, don't mess with god and his disciples, i really feel sorry for you, at least have a little of respect. If YOU don't believe in this, then just stop to talk in this way to a person that you don't know, in the deeper of yourself, you wish to be like him. Go back to work!!! - 04/14/2008 - anon

You really are very disturbed. You also must have way too much time on your hands and apparently too much hate in your heart if you take the obvious time you do to create such phoney garbage. It will be too bad if you carry this sin with you into Judgement Day. I don't care if oyu respect this man or not. To be so vile about any person, even if you disagree with him/her or not, is a low life way to live your life. Get a grip! Stop wasting your time making up crap and go out and do some good in this world! - 04/12/2008 - anon

I cannot believe that you took so much time to bash a man of God. - 04/10/2008 - anon

you guys are eggs this is a man called of god and your mocking not only him but his wife because of religious beliefs you guys need to go loook in the mirror cause you guys are eggheads it's because of people like you people become refugees you guys are idiots!!!!!!! - 04/08/2008 - te atahuia

Now it's obvious the Hinckley years were the high water mark for the LDS Church.

Gordon B. Hinckley was the well liked, highly visible church leader that understood the church members liked to hear a joke or two, be reminded of their pioneer heritage and what those people accomplished, and the feeling that they belonged to something big.

Hinkley also knew the members of the church liked to see the prophet and went around the world on a Gulf Stream jet and private helicopter supposedly thanks to John Huntsman.

Hinckley rebuilt Nauvoo and other church historic sites making them grander than ever. He put Martin's Cove back on the map. LDS summer vacations were now visiting Nauvooland and pulling a handcart at Martin's Cove. Everything the church ran and owned became grander and more wonderful under Hinckley. The historic tabernacle was replaced with a half billion dollar Conference Center. BYU Provo received upgrades while Rick's College became BYU Idaho with a Harvard Business School Dean running the show.

Hinckley did public interviews and hired Madison Avenue to due the church PR work. He liked to refer to the book of Daniel and liken the church to the stone cut out without hands rolling forth.

At first Hinckley's plan seemed to work until in the mid 1990's a software program called Netscape made searching the internet easier. The internet changed the world much like the invention of the PC did. It leveled the playing field allowing the average person to have more of a voice, to more easily search for information and harder to hide information. The mainstream media and large organizations could not withhold information like it used to.

People who had left the church could tell their story in easy to find forums on websites. Church historical information could be looked up and compared. People from all over the world could tell their experiences. All this added up and showed more than ever, the LDS Church was full of bull. This was all happening at the same time while the LDS Prophet was doing public interviews denying basic church doctrine. The church leaders continued business at usual and the emperor had no clothes anymore.

Not to mention terrorist attacks on 9/11 brought attention on the Mountain Meadows Massacre again and when ground was broke to build Hinckley's "We're Sorry!" monument, forensic evidence of the massacre was found to show the surviving children told the truth and the Mormons cooked a story. Add in the FLDS polygamy scandals and abuse and Hinckley's public relations blitz was failing badly.

Now the church is investing $2 billion into a downtown mall project. Not to mention the church bought part of Main Street and turned it into a parking garage. The media and attention loving Hinckley is gone and has been replaced with Thomas S. Monson.

Monson will steer the church the same way Hinckley did but without all the grand public relation stunts. I think he will avoid talking to the press like Hinckley did other than press that he knows if friendly to the church. Monson's reign has already been somewhat of a disaster. Instead of bragging about the strength of the church and the rock rolling forth, the new prophet begs exmormons to return to the fold. It's a far cry from the begining of the Hinckley years where the church was mighty and the fastest growing.

Business as usual is going to run the rest of the sane members from the church and all that will be left will be a bunch of Kool Aid drinking wierdos. - 04/08/2008 - Rubicon

Hero worship seems to be part of human nature, both within and without the Church. I think we do a disservice to those in leadership positions when we put them on personal pedestal, even if they appear to be inviting it. We are setting ourselves up for disillusionment when they inevitably fall short in some minor way. We should respect the position, and think in terms of what we each can do to sustain the individual in the position. We all have our foibles. Don't "make the just man an offender for a thing of naught." I do remember having some private doubts about the authenticity of Paul H. Dunn in terms of some of his "self-congratulatory" stories. Eventually the truth about him came to light, and he was quietly moved aside. But I don't get the same sense about Thomas S. Monson. I admire his oratory skills, and find his use of personal experiences as being quite effective. I accept him as the Lord's prophet, and trust the Lord to work through him as He has done with all of the Latter Day prophets, regardless of any minor weaknesses or personality quirks they may have had. Even the ancient prophets and patriarchs had their personal failings. We all do. Only the Savior was perfect, and thanks to Him we all have the opportunity to eventually work out our individual imperfections. - 04/08/2008 - anon

I do not feel strong in the Church. I have not gone regularly in years. However, this page just reeks of pettiness and the kinds of complaints and stories that I have heard in many other organizations, which when I tracked them down, turned out to be basically false. I do not particularly care either way if they are true or false, I have no investment in the issue, but these stories strike me as empty and petty -- the stories of people with very little vision and small minds. Sorry, but that's how they read to me... based upon my experiences as a Consultant in Organizational Behavior. - 04/07/2008 - Not a TBM

i'm so appauled that you would even tnink that. you now none of thats true about him stalkng an older widow and you can tell those pictures were photo shot. - 04/06/2008 - kasandra

These pitcures are rude and insulting. Mormons are normal people just like Christians, Catholics, Jews, or Baptist. Don't judge a book by it's cover. We all want to be treated fairly no matter what. Please stop this nonsense and find something else to do with your pathetic time. - 04/02/2008 - Nephi

It amazes me that no matter how good a person is, people are always trying to slander their good name. Further, no matter how wicked a person is, people are always trying to make them look good.

Our nation thought it was no business of ours what went on in the white House with Monica Lewenski and Bill Clinton. That it's alright that movies stars take drugs, hire prositutes, and have affairs.(I mean, come on they're attactive people and good at what they do). And that musicians destroy the minds of our youth by their corrupt but catchy songs. (It's just a song, right?) But some people think it's their business to make sure someone like a prophet of a church has their faults exploited to the world on the internet.

If you think spending so much of your time ruining Thomas S. Monson's name and character is benificial, then why don't you spend that same amount of time trying to exploit people and things that are actually doing harm in this world. - 03/29/2008 - Samuel the arrow dodging Lamanite

Monson was a member of my church , THE CHURCH OF THE SUBGENIUS for years , he was also a FREEMASON, Rosicrucian, and member of the OTO .I knew him as a great lover of Gin. He will make a great 'prophet' for the church . This is my testimony .

JR BOB DOBBS founder of the CHURCH OF THE SUBGENIUS. 03/26/08

Thomas S. Monson is a MAN of GOD. I agree with statements made earlier, that he has done nothing to deserve the slander written about him in this blog. How odd that some think they have to tear others down to build themselves up. - 03/16/2008 - Jeremy

Lets be honest here regarding that cake story.

Beth knew good and well that when you frost a three layer cake that is hot out of the oven not having time to cool that it will be a total mess. Beth should have had the good sense to plan better. It sounds like Beth had a real chip on her shoulder and was very passive-aggressive in what she did. Then she has the gall to be offended at the chain of events that she put into action by her negligence and failure to plan her work.

I am sure that it was very embarrassing for everybody when the cake box was opened up. Just as Beth knew that it would be......Beth obviously was hoping to create an unnecessary scene. She should have been severely disciplined for her deliberate and inexcusable conduct. - 02/17/2008 - Sister Betty crocker

People leave the church but they just can't leave it alone. To spend this much time belittling someone like Thomas S Monson proves you need to move on and worship in your own way. - 02/13/2008 - Rich

Monson an Intimidating Presence:

For years I was employed at ZCMI's flagship dowtown store, across the street from 47 E. South Temple - The Church Administration Building. As such, we were blessed with the lunchtime strolls of many general authorities. In my department, we had a special calling: to fit the brethren with their suits. I stand witness to Brother Monson's intimidating presence.

First, he is a large man. Second, he is an arrogant man. Finally, he is one of the most difficult customers I have ever worked with in a retail capacity. I certainly hope his ascendency to the big chair will teach him some humility. However, in my multi-year experience, he lost it years ago. - 02/07/2008 - Utahn by Birth

In the 1980's I was waiting for an elevator going down in the LDS church office bldg. The door opened, and there was Thomas S Monson, picking his nose. And dude, what a nose. He looked up and started brushing it with his hand, as you do when you've been caught booger mining. Had to restrain our laughter all the way down. - 02/05/2008 - notbrainwashed

wow, dude, you have way too much time on you pathetic hands! - 02/07/2008 - anon

I've appreciated reading the notes. Of course it is difficult to agree with all of them; however, there are those which cause me to stop and ponder on the things I've done, said or not said which may have caused pain, doubt or misgivings.

Please accept my deepest, most sincere apologies. I am Sorry.

To address the issue of milk & donuts - let us say, nothing beats a cold glass of milk and a warm apple fritter :-)

In regards to my spouse and I, I love her! I cherish her! She is my Eternal Companion and I can not think of life without her! This said..... life happens and we don't always agree on everything.

Please pause for a moment to ponder on the chore she's been asked to bear. There is no glory for the spouse, rather there is enormous burden placed on them. She is asked to gracefully, quietly and supportively assume life's burdens, alone.

Thousands of miles away I'll give a warm call to say Happy Birthday, Happy Anniversary - how are the children, how are the grandchildren and of course..... How are You? I miss you and I will see you soon. The song "I'm already there," takes on new meaning... as do the words "Till We Meet Again," now with Pres. Hinkley's passing. I prayed he'd live forever, and honestly thought he would.

Andreas, thank you for your kind words. May God Bless you.

By the way, might I add - I'm not so sure what I've gotten myself into this time. I've served with my share of Prophets and I haven't seen one make it out alive yet :-) - 02/04/2008 - TM

YOU are a fool! Those who speak of the lords anointed will pay dearly! Let alone a prophet of GOD! You have been overcome with your own foolish lack of understanding and pride. You like hearing yourself speak, I would guess because you have no real accomplishments of your own, and I would venture to say many failings, You now then choose to live in a glass house and throw stone in every direction but your own. Sad, very sad that you would even verbalize such trash, and to what end, the same as the adversary's! You are unhappy, and therefore have no other cause than to try and make others unhappy!! DO you realize who you have become?? WOW!!

May God do with you, that, which you have sealed with and by your own Hand!! It will serve as a witness against you in judgement!! Repent soon my lost confused and disillusioned friend! Repent! And go and sin no more.. - 02/04/2008 - What a sad read...

The picture of Thomas S. Monson with big eyes is creepy and unnessary, however, as a man of God and the now prophet of the church, he should be held at a higher standard, human or not. I can relate to some of the negative stories as I and people close to me have had similar encounters with the man. It's funny, you don't hear these type of stories about Spencer W. Kimball, Gordon B. Hinckley, or David O. McKay do you? They do seem to be plentiful about Pres. Monson though. Why is that? The fact that he is just a man and has a lot on his plate is not a great excuse, he should follow the golden rule like anyone else. A family member of mine had a brief, but unpleasant encounter with him once (I'm not going to get into it here)and his rudeness really rattled me and another family member who witnessed it. His actions were wholly inappropriate for a man of his stature or for pretty much any civil human being. Maybe he was in a bad mood - you might think an Apostle could deal with them better than most of us. By the way, I would never throw a fit over a melted cake, would Christ? Would you? Hey, the thing is still edible; you can chuckle about it, eat it, and move on. Everybody makes mistakes. We all have our human frailties and have all lashed out at people, but when they come from G.A.s they take on a different color - wrong or right from other's point of view. For the person who claims that many of the comments in this post are shallow, judgemental, and only their opinions; how do you know? Where you there? And of course, they are their own opinions, but they are formulated by experiences had with the man. If they are embellished or made up, shame on them, however I doubt that's the case. I am an active member of the church and will sustain him, but he does have a bit of a reputation as being difficult, and from my view he has earned it. That is not my problem or anyone elses' on this board it is his because of his actions. Thomas S. Monson is a smart man and has done plenty good as well, I know of people that have had gracious encounters with him and through his positions i the church has no doubt brought plenty of good and touched the lives of many. Of course it is human nature for people to dwell on the negative. Here's hoping that being a prophet softens some of his apparent rough edges and widens his compassion. - 02/04/2008 - Considering

I watched today as the LDS Church leadership passed from Gordon B. Hinckley to Thomas S. Monson. I felt the he was truly called of God to be the next prophet! I must confess I had some feelings before I watched the press conference. Feeling that I was not sure he was the right one to lead. But as I sat and watched I could feel the peace come over my body and a calm I needed. It was refreshing to hear him speak and feel the love and power in his voice. He did look a little nervous but who can blame him with such a great responsibility now resting squarely on his shoulders. I know he was called by God to lead His church at this time. I hope everyone will come to Christ and partake of the blessings of the gospel. I know it makes life so much more bearable and with Pres. Monson leading the church even more great things will happen. Now is the time to put aside our own pride and recognize that we are all here to help each other. "Love thy neighbor as thyself" We have never been called on to judge one another, but oft repeated is the admonition to love one another. So when we are presented with instances in others lives when they acted reprehensibly, let us remember that our lives, under such scrutiny, would turn up just as much dirt as the next person. So what do we do with others dirty laundry, We fold it up and put it away, and worry about our own laundry. I hope we can let go of the anger that plagues our society, it destroys not only families and friendships, it takes a serious toll on our health. To truly succeed we need to focus on the positive in our own lives and strive serve our neighbors. Love is the answer and as Jewel says "in the end only kindness matters" - 02/04/2008 - In Defense of Truth - Thomas Monson, Prophet of God

There is one fault of every member of the Mormon Church or any church, they are not perfect. And humility is difficult, especially for someone high in any public or corporate position. The person who is responsible for this website is not perfect, and must certainly is not humble. There is an attitude of 'gotchaism' present in our society today. We love to make the big boys fall into shame. Whoever the boss is, or whoever the top guy is, let's go after him and disgrace him! Let us look within ourselves for ways to be better people, and not look to others' inadequecies to make us feel that we are as good as they. We should always try to put ourselves in other's shoes before we say someone's shoes are muddy. - 02/04/2008 - jrf

the crappy cake speaks for itself.....and the long hair may have brought about some very sad memories, look a little deeper into his past.... - 02/03/2008 - boner

I find it amazing that almost none of the accounts are first person. They are mostly "I know someone saw this or heard this." That's gossip and you will never know if it is true. People always exaggerate when trying to make a point.

I do have to comment about the investor- If you called me and tried to undercut your senior brokers business and use your membership in the Church as a tool to get financial gain, then I would also consider moving my business from that company.

I met Pres Monson once at a family reunion of a girl I was dating. She was a niece or great niece of him. He was about as normal as any guy and openly talked to any and all that approached. I went over, shook his hand and had a couple words with him. I honestly felt like he was a good man.

Just my $.02 and my first person experience with him. - 02/03/2008 - anon

that puppy dog thing was mean. - 02/03/2008 - CRW

President Thomas S. Monson is a Prophet of God. I testify that I know it is true. - 02/03/2008 - Testimony Puppet

Don't You people have better things to do? - anon - 02/01/2008 -

Why be so angry? Even if any, and I mean any, of this is true, you need to dig deep into who you are. You still can find yourself. I'm praying for you. - 1/31/2008 - Why?

Come on, people. You have to remember that Pres. Monson is just a man and that nobody's perfect. Can you imagine the incredible amount of weight on his shoulders, trying to be the person everyone expects him to be? I'm sure it's hard. Church leaders are regular folks just like you and me, except they have dedicated their lives to serving the Church, and living a higher standard than we could even imagine. Everyday life for these men and these families isn't just floating around on clouds, feeling the spirit all the time, talking directly to God. When we actually see them as people with flaws, we can't let that destroy our Faith! They have jobs to do, worries, families. Millions of people to coordinate and inspire. They don't act like they do in General Conference every single day. It's not necessarily the man that we should respect and follow, but the position, the calling.

And I'm not saying this because I'm a believer or a follower. I'm totally inactive! - 01/31/2008 - steph

you really need to get a life. i feel sorry for you. - 01/30/2008 - tom

CREEPS! GET A LIFE! - 01/30/2008 - john

this is the most offensive thing ever. this is NOT true. how DARE you ever post such bull crap. please take this off.

what satisfaction do you get from trying to bring other people down? well, people like you need to be prayed for. oh, and grow up. - 01/30/2008 - malia

He is a wonderful apostle, A MAN OF GOD, who deserves all the respect in the world and the world to come. I can't believe that there are actually people out there, like yourself, who would rather spend time critizising, than listening. Which is obviously the case here. U got issues. Don't blame him, cuz you cant understand the message. try harder. Pray! - 01/29/2008 - Shelly

I knew nothing about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints when the spirit told me that the Lord's authority rested in this church and that this was His true church. I loved the church I attended and was shocked at the thought of becoming "a Mormon." At the time African American males could not hold the priesthood and this troubled me greatly, but the Lord told me that this church was His and so I went forward believing God would take care of this as He truly loves all of His children. Over the years I have seen GA's acting as men. At times it was troubling, but I could never deny what the spirit of the Lord had told me and so my faith, belief and love for the Savior became stronger and stronger. It is for His kingdom I fight, not for the kingdom of the church leaders. I sustain the various callings and offices of the priesthood, but the Lord says, "Do not put your trust in the arm of flesh," and so when the men (and women) of the church show their human side (and that includes me), I remember that my trust and faith is to be in the Lord and it is my desire to stand up for the truth the Lord has sent forth - no matter what anyone thinks of me - in or out of the church. I understand why people leave the church, but I also know that there is nowhere else to go that can provide the fullness of the gospel. We've all had unpleasant experiences with others,and it really is hard when it's someone we think should always be kind and loving and should be setting an example. When it comes down to our judgment,however, it will only be between us, as individuals, and the Lord. We will not be able to blame Thomas Monson or President Hinckley or anyone else for the choices we have made. I would hope that we as the Lord's children will study His word - even if your belief is only in the Bible, and try to live by it so that peace truly can come to this earth. This trek isn't easy for anyone - we need what the Lord has to tell us. I hope anyone who reads this will want to know the love of the Lord. It's real and it will help you understand that nothing else matters. - 01/29/2008 - RT

I don't know President Monson from personal experience, but I am surprised that so many are quick to pick apart his every twitch to take issue with him. He is human, and so is not perfect, and though some people may have had legitimately negative experiences with him, 'let him who is without sin cast the first stone'. Monson is a man of God that is serving according to the will of the Lord, but it does not mean he is divine himself; just divinely inspired.

This man had done more for others by the age of 32 than many people can achieve in a lifetime. - 01/29/2008 - Incredulous

thomas monson = prophet 'anonymous or you have your reward'** - 01/29/2008 - J

If this is how members view President Monson, it would be interesting to read what our critics say of him. There are so many shallow and completely judgemental comments in the above section, and yes they are opinions only. This is the way that shallow and egocentric people behave. You may want to lift up your heel against the Lords anointed, but we learn in revelation that you will be cursed for doing so.

I love listening to the Conference talks given by this mighty Apostle. I share stories with my children that he has shared. We call them Tommy Monson Stories. In fact I found this site while trying to find a christmas story for my family in our Family home evening.

Study what he has written and you will feel the spirit of his words. I chose to believe that he is called of God. Furthermore my opinion of him has been strengthened by personal revelation, and not just some opinion formed in a once -off setting. - 12/07/2007 - jay

My friend sitting next to me thinks this site is funny. I Don't... well not all of it. I do not like the obviousely fake slander but it's obviously fake so it is not as bad. - 11/12/2007 - Mellvin Cluff

You are idiots...

I am an Asset Management Securities Consultant and I dont know of any newbie who doesnt get their ass handed to them their first 5 - 10 years. Multi Million dollar churches dont just hand business to unknown planners because they came up with a good idea, they go with the Rep's who have been helping them for the last 30 years. - 08/15/2007 - none

after wasting my time reading your article, I came to the conclusion that "It takes one to know one"(A_____e) that is! You have no respect for anyone including your self because if you did you would not use such language. You can express your feelings with out those words and still say what you wish. I am very glad that I do not share you point of view about Elder Monson.I am a very secure Lds member. - 08/14/2007 - anon

The puppy dog eyes pic is creepy.

And BTW - I'd be pissed too if there wasn't iced cold milk & my favorite donuts at a church meeting. And I'd chew some ass if MY birthaday cake was a pile of garbage!!! - 07/27/2007 - anon

I read into your website because I hold in high esteem this wonderful person, Thomas S. Monson. I was very disappointed that you would make fun of a person that is sincere, genuine, and has not done anything to merit the slander you give about him.

Please reach into your heart and ask Thomas S. Monson to forgive you for making light of his wonderful life. He is a man of God and deserves to be respected by us. If you will really study and pray about it, you will receive an answer of love for ALL men!

Sincerely, person who cares - 03/16/2007

Could you be so stupid that you can not recognize yourself when you desribed this magnificent person. Love yourself. Don't be and idiot or else. - 01/06/2007 - anon