While at BYU I had several friends that were athletes, everyone I knew did their own homework, most were very bright and hard working. However, I was aware of others that I didn’t personally know (some athletes) who took English second language GE courses. Those courses were infamous for being an easy way to complete GE requirements.

I did know one athlete (Football) personally who received a free car from an alumni, I believe this was highly unusual. It was common knowledge and I had several friends who were football players that were given summer jobs by alumni. Unlike my summer job, they were high paying and did not require much work. Based on what I know about University athletics this is not that unusual.

My sister and three brothers were on athletic scholarships at other Universities and none of this is that unusual. University athletics is big money, especially a successful football and basketball program. A good program provides several revenue streams for a University, including bowl games, weekly ticket sales, licensed gear, and advertising and of coarse the very important alumni relations. BYU is no different.

Now...the darker side of University sports. While at BYU, I personally witnessed a nationally recognized and awarded BYU football player using cocaine. He was doing it in front of dozens of people.

I knew several athletes who were accused of raping girls, I knew the girls and believed them, one girl was my wife’s roommate. The athletes some how managed to stay in the University, while the girls were either put on probation for violating standards or kicked out of the University. All the athletes claimed the sex was consensual. My experience was that the University always took athletes side.

I used to go to all night house (dance) parties attended by most of the best football players and several of the basketball players and wrestlers at BYU, there were always drinking and lots of dancing. It’s interesting that we never had a problem with the police. Our neighborhood where we lived was infamous for partying.

We were so loud. My roommates and I sponsored several parties our self, although we never provided (adult beverages). We were always too afraid of getting dragged into standards and as a RM I never drank a drop of alcohol, I was a very good boy when it came to the WOW.

That’s what I experiences while at BYU. I saw lots of nepotism and some special preferences, lots of partying but very little cheating.

Best,

JR

P.S. During the four and a half years I was at BYU I never attended a single BYU devotional!!

That makes me very proud.

I stumbled across this site and felt the need to post.

I am a BYU Football alumnus. While there I did ALL that was asked of me. I have great memories of my time at BYU, Football and my mission. I have nothing negative to say except for this. In my late 20's I was excommunicated from the church by my own choosing. I gained an opinion and my eyes became opened. I was shunned by every member I knew. My bestfriends (or so I thought bestfriends) just stopped talking to me. I expected that of course.

However here is the wild thing. They completely took my name off the BYU Football alumni website. YES THEY REALLY DID!! I have the NCAA assisting me to see if I have a valid legal case. SO YES censorship and double standards are very apparant in the church.

I grew up in Seneca County New York (birth place of the Church). When I was four years old, my parents converted from Judaism to Mormonism. Though I was on the surface a typical good Mormon girl (Mia Maid president, Laurel president, etc.) I had many questions about the Church. I was in junior high school when I was first exposed to the truth about Joseph Smith and his many (and young) wives.

As I encountered more and more problematic things with the Church I tried to reassure myself that for now I just needed to rely on faith and then God would tell me everything when I reached the Celestial Kingdom.

Like a good girl, I went to BYU. This was the biggest eye-opener of my life. I was exposed to doctrine that shocked me, and very often this doctrine was being preached from one of our religion courses.

Some examples of the trash I had to hear: Mother Teresa is not going to the Celestial Kingdom because she hasn't married, and no woman can get into heaven without a husband; The reason blacks got the priesthood in the '70s was because in the preexistence whites were more valiant than non-whites, but God ran out of white "molds" and had to put righteous spirits in black bodies; German Mormons who supported Hitler were righteous, because they were following the Articles of Faith--supporting the laws of their land; God had sex with Mary to produce Jesus (and in heaven all the men get multiple wives--the more the merrier); God gave men the priesthood and women the ability to give birth (the same way he did to female rats, cats, skunks, etc.). I could go on and on for hours about the horrible things I heard.

Then there was the atmosphere at BYU itself. I was very ill physically and had to undergo several surgeries. Needless to say, I couldn't always attend Church. I received many notices that this lack of attendance was jeopardizing my ability to remain a BYU student. When I explained my health problems, I was told that if I had enough faith, I could go to Church anyway.

I was full of a great deal of confusion after my freshman year, but I returned for my sophomore year determined that I could keep my faith until I solved all these hypocrisies in the Church.

By then (1995) BYU was becoming more and more of a police state. I had decided to become a physician after my health problems and I was taking some third year level microbiology courses. The first day of school, I walked in and sat down in the lecture hall.

All of a sudden, I felt eyes on me. I looked around and realized I was the only woman in the class. Then, the professor walked in. He glared at me and loudly demanded to know what I was doing there. I told him I was there for Microbiology 3--. He demanded to know if I had taken the prerequisite courses.

I assured him I had. He then asked if I knew that the class was supposed to be for pre-med students. I said yes, and I was pre-med. He gave me a glare and told the class "Well, I guess she can be here, then".

The guys began laughing and saying that I was just there to catch a husband who was going to be a doctor, and therefore rich. I was able to hold back my tears until I got home. Things went from bad to worse.

I was actually threatened by students in my Chemistry lab when they found out I had the second highest grade. They said that it was wrong for a girl to screw up their curve. A guy I had been dating occasionally gave me a note saying he could no longer date me after he found out I had gotten a higher grade on a chem test than he had--it was against God's plan.

Then, BYU began to crack down even more. They announced that beginning in April '96 people would have to sign a form indicating that they would turn people in who were violating the so-called Honor Code. Some of my family escaped (and some were not so lucky) from Hitler during the War, so I was no stranger to the effects of Nazi-Gestapo tactics.

I knew that I would never sign such a thing. I began applying to other schools to transfer as soon as possible. Meanwhile, a person I knew had her first taste of the Gestapo atmosphere: She was a typical naive Utah Mormon, all excited because a GUY had come up to her on campus.

He said "Hi" and asked her where she was going. She told him and he said he'd walk her to class. On the way he asked her what her name was, where she was from, where she lived, her major, and her phone #. When they reached her class he stopped and said "I just wanted to let you know--I'm a member of the Honor Code committee and you've given me all the information I need to turn you in--your skirt is too short."

A roommate of mine was assaulted by our Elder's Quorum president. But she was the one considered to be at fault, because at BYU everyone knows no woman has a sex drive, and so if anything happens she must have seduced the guy.

I don't want to keep going on and on, because the horrors about BYU would take up volumes and volumes.

By now, I was having serious problems with the Church. After a great deal of scripture reading and heartfelt prayer, I went to my Bishop. I explained my problems with the way things were. He asked if I'd prayed and I told him I had. Then he asked if I'd prayed so that if God said that everything I had questioned (racism, sexism, etc.) was as I had been taught at BYU that I'd stop being disobedient (i.e., pre-med).

I said that if God was that nasty and cruel, then I would say to God, "No thank you, I think I'll live in Hell." [Big mistake, Mormons can't stand that word.] The bishop said that was where I was headed and told me to leave and never come back. I listened to him. :)

I was kicked out of BYU - at 16. I grew up in Utah County and we came up with some very creative ways to entertain ourselves. One weekend, after watching the movie "Boyz-n-the-Hood", we (friends and I) got the bright idea to replicate the drive-by shootings in that movie. We hatched a plan to steal the fire extinguishers from several of the BYU dorms and buildings.

After implementing that plan, we headed toward the BYU library where we began blasting zoobies with clouds of stinky white powder. We had stolen a half-dozen or so extinguishers, and couldn't bear to stop the fun until we had fully exhausted them all.

We lasted about 25 minutes before the police were notified and we were caught. The BYU blue hauled us in, impounded our vehicle, and called our parents. While we waited several stern looking men lectured us on our poor decisions.

The first guy gave us the "you make me sick, it's all I can do not to take you over my knee and spank you" lecture (which, looking back, is a lot more disturbing than it was then). The next guy told us we were "probably trash from California". The keynote speaker told us that this would be a "decision that we'd regret for the rest of our lives" as we would never be allowed to enroll at BYU.

Being juveniles, we went to court and were told to pay a couple hundred bucks to replace the extinguishers, write some apology letters, and do some community service.

Interestingly enough, two of my buddies (fellow drive-by shooters)later enrolled and graduated from BYU. So much for that powerful student screening program.

I steered clear of BYU -- couldn't get over the weird taliban vibe I felt during our police interrogation -- and did my time at UNLV (Go Rebs!)

10. Enter to Be Indoctrinated; Go Forth to Breed

9. Electroshock-free since 1996

8. Please remove facial hair and critical thinking skills before entering

7. Where it's always 1955

6. Home of Sparkling Yogurt (A BYU Dairy Products Lab invention that they sell at the BYU Creamery. It's essentially what you would expect: custard-style yogurt injected with carbonation, so it fizzes when you put in into your mouth.)

5. It's Not a Lie If You Believe It

4. Arbeit Macht Frei

3. Harvard for the Superstitious

2. Closing Minds One Freshman at a Time

1. Don't Intellectualize the Gospel

10. Bring the girls, and Bring 'em Young!

9. Where sweet spirits prepare for a life of misery

8. If you can't be with the one you love, marry the one you're with

7. Never give meat when milk will do

6. Why get an education when you can get married?

5. Get your Mrs. degree!

4. Home of Levi Love

3. Bow your head and say, "Ba-a-a-a-a."

2. Truth-free since 1875

1. We don't discriminate against homos or faggots

10) Do it in the Mountains by Heck

9) Word of Wisdom University..WoW! U

8) Dry Hump U 4 U

7) Exploring the Known Mormon World By Direction

6) Where a date usually means "I Do"

5) Discover 101 Uses for Green Jello

4) New Book Added to the Library Every Year!

3) Arrogant by Choice and Priesthood

2) Hives of Bees and Day Care Fees...only at the Y!

1) You can SEE with Our Stones!

My sister dated a guy on the BYU football team back in Steve's day there and one Sunday Fast Sunday after an away game, there was a lull in middle of the meeting. Gordon Hudson (tight end) was sitting by Elder Young, who'd fallen asleep. So Gordy elbowed him and told him he'd just been called to give the closing prayer. AND HE DID!

The bishop didn't think it was funny and had someone else provide a re-opening prayer and continued the meeting!

A friend wrote this poem for me as a way of relating to the frustration I feel here at BYU as a closet exmo. I think it really captures the estrangement of the disillusioned individual from her own identity and the imperialistic domination of the school over both thoughts and emotions. He put it in words far better than I ever could.

Stranger

I roam through the streets of depravity
In a cave of offices and lecture halls
The air is cold
the days are dark
Though crowds surround me, I am alone

An eerie wave pervades
a silent frequency of control
tuned in are android robots
in knee length shorts
and meaningless smiles

I wander to the town meeting
Follow the crowd languidly through the door
a snake in shirt an tie at the pulpit
He welcomes all who enter
and makes shadow puppets on the wall

He hisses warnings of danger
lurking everywhere says he
Worst of all you cannot love
for they say you can get pregnant
just by looking

I can't escape their judgment
thought police 'round every corner
My emotions are not mine to keep
and identity is long forgotten
What's left of me is no longer human

As I linger in their midst
I want nothing more than to feel again
For someone close who understands
To no longer be a stranger
around so many friends

I was a convert from Ann Arbor and wanted to do the whole Mormon thing so in the summer of 1977 or 78, I went to BYU. They had put me in Deseret Towers, and when I walked in all these guys were hanging out. I was tall, long blonde hair and had a "bitchin" body. Anyway, I was reading the board and a group of guys came up snickering and asked if I was here for my Mrs. degree. Not knowing what that was, I said no, I wasn't in grad school yet and was here for my BA. What was the Mrs degree?. They were visibly embarrassed and began to walk away-then I figured it out, got infront of them and verbally ripped them to shreds. Needless to say no dates for me.

Then, no one would cross against the lights. There was not a car in site and I began to cross. My roommates grabbed me and said that would be breaking the law and I was sinning if I cross.

Oh and speaking about crosses. My Dad gave me a small cross before he died that I wore. I was really put down for that.

One more thing(there are so many). My roommates and other girls would talk about potato chips alot and how much they wanted them. I figured out, after a month, that was a code word for sex. Well, I had been sexually active for about 2 years and I did not think the abstinence thing was taken that seriously. I said, lets go out this weekend with some guys and have fun. We could take turns in the room and come up with a signal if one of us was "busy". They were horrified, I said what? you all want sex, lets have sex. My roommates asked for a transfer and I got a talking to from this Christianson person (some one high up at the school).

I went back home and told the Branch President that I wanted to be ex'ed. This was a cult. The BP (I kid you not) put his head in his hands and shaking his head said "I told them NOT to put you in Deseret Towers". Repeated 3 times.

When I went to the Y in the early 70's I was a very naive but attractive young girl. I really enjoyed the attention from guys as my home life had been very lacking. (I had basically raised myself due to my mother's mental illness.)

Initially, I was really surprised at how much they reminded me of octopui. After I got over the initial 'dating marathon', I got involved with a RM who introduced me to heavy petting. I was so naive, that I figured if a RM did it, then it must be okay, even though I felt bad about it.

The amusing aspect of this was...after I dumped him, he turned me in to my bishop in my home ward! The next amusing thing was...this bishop, who was a really nice man, ended up being exed for an affair.

Then, I started hanging out with girls at the Y that were partying types. We went to the Ice House all the time dancing. Remember the Icehouse?

I was really surpised when we went to a party with athletes, as they were drinking. My naive eyes were opened at BYU, and I'm glad to read other stories, as I have always felt bad about the things I had done when I was young. Maybe I wasn't so bad after all!

10. Dude, get a haircut.

9. I'm sorry, you can't go in the testing center until you shave.

8. No, sorry. It will have to be bread and Y sparkle.

7. You're right. I think Satan did come up with the idea for sparkling yogurt.

6. You're 33 and not married? You better talk to your bishop.

5. No, that's not a whited sepulchre. It's the Joseph Smith Building.

4. I'm sorry, but we don't let just anyone into the special collections section of the library. There's some sensitive stuff in there.

3. What? You've never heard of Gordon B. Hinckley?

2. I love your posts on the FAIR boards.

1. It's nice having you here, Lord, but we were kind of hoping to see Joseph Smith. - runtu

I'm sorry, but you can't wear those flip flops in here! - msnobody

What are you talking about? No one at BYU says "I'm sorry" before chastising you. They all think it's their duty to call everyone to repentance. - Aloysius

Now, really, get something that covers your chest and feet. - T-bone

Look at that dude in the robe and sandals. He must be gay.

Get a haircut, hippie! - dick

Show me your "beard card.

You're not from around these parts are you?

Hold out your hand and I'll share my Skittles with you. Oh, Fetch! You keep dropping them! - NumLock

What if Jesus got called as the ward organist (cussing)

"Bishop, I would love to play the organ, but in case you didn't notice, my hands are ALL FUCKED UP!" - dick

What do you mean I can't throw the first stone? - AxelDC

You really should have spoken MORE about tithing you know.

What is this something for nothing crap...gracie.

Why no crosses? because we really don't want to think about that..and could you cover up those bloody holes PLEASE...jeeez.

Hey, where's your apron and pizza hat?

You must be looking for the international campus...here's a ticket to Hawaii.

Are you the one that turned the water cooler water into wine? Come here wise guy.

What do you mean you don't know the secret handshake? - JW the Inquizzinator

Whaddya mean, this is your first visit to America". - Glo

Ferchrissakes shave off that beard!! - Barber

What, Jesus? You haven't heard of temple garments OR the sacred symbols?

Jesus, Lord, sir, could you please tell me why you are laughing so much? Is it something I said? - Matt

While I was at BYU I spent a semester abroad in the Dominican Republic (within the last 5 years). At the conclusion of the trip we found out that one of the students on the trip was actually sent there (her entire 4 month trip, as well as tuition, was paid) by the Honor Code office. She reported back on any infractions she saw, whether it was someone being out too late, getting frisky with the locals, drinking or not attending meetings. They sent her as a student knowing that she would be one of us and know about all of our misdeeds. It was a great mystery as to who was giving up all our secrets until she was forced to come clean near the end of our trip. Surprisingly, most of the students (even those who were punished thanks to her info) APOLOGIZED to her for causing her to worry! I thought this was odd at the time and mentioned it, but was quickly reminded that the church was just trying to keep us safe from harm.

Funny. The weren't too concerned when I went on splits with one of the sisters to the slums, knocking on doors in the dark, stepping over hypodermic needles and "teaching" drunk flirts. I guess the Holy Ghost was supposed to keep us from being raped in the slums, and the spy was to keep us safe from other students at the school?

I guess the Lord is no longer a Mormon , otherwise he wouldn't have let his football team get beat by the Catholics today.

Notre Dame 49 - BYU 23

Bruce R McConkie must be spinning in his grave because another Mother of all harlots school beat the Lord's University. That makes BYU 0-3 vs abomination sponsored institutions this year.

Boston College 20 - BYU 3

Texas Christian University 51 - BYU 50

I saw a counselor while at BYU. I was being treated for depression during my freshmen year, considering the following circumstances: both of my parents were killed in an auto accident over Christmas break, and my brother committed suicide. Who wouldn't be depressed? All in all, I recovered fairly well and went about leading a productive and relatively well-adjusted life. We all have trials and I became a much stronger person because of what happened.

So FLASH FORWARD three more years... I decided to serve a mission and was called to serve in Japan, in the same area where ALL of my mother's non-member family live. So I'm in the MTC, doing well, learning the language, being a good missionary.

UNTIL the day I get called into the MTC president's office and he tells me that I have to undergo a psychological evaluation, which I 'passed' with flying colors. His wife calls me into her office, where she accuses me of "manipulating" the evaluation. She tells me that they reviewed my counseling records from BYU (3 years prior), and came to the conclusion that I was psychologically unfit to serve a msision. They sent me home on a plane later that night.

I sacrificed and saved nearly all of the money to pay for my mission; and I paid it up front, so I was out almost $9,000. I gave up my apartment, car, job, and all of my earthly belongings to serve this mission. When they sent me home, I was basically homeless because I had no parents or living family, no house, no apartment, and no money. They wouldn't let me stay in Provo (where all of my friends were, and where I could almost certainly find a place to stay until I got back on my feet).

No, they flew me to California, where I was homeless, living in and out of shelters for months. My homeward bishop did nothing because he said I belonged to my BYU bishop. My BYU bishop said he had no stewardship over me because I was in California. BYU would not let me back in school because they said I had to have "6 months of good mental health documented by a licensed physician." I didn't have food or shelter, so health insurance was pretty much out of the question.

Thanks, LDS church, for allowing a young lady like me the opportunity to serve a mission.

#1. I am a BYU student in good ol' Provo, which is Mormon ground zero. I spent the weekend at my parents' house, which is about 500 miles away, and got back a few hours ago. I have very little food in the fridge and would like to go grocery shopping now, while I have time, instead of tomarrow when I'm busier than god knows what. However, I am afraid that if I go shopping my roommates will see me carrying the shopping bags, report to the bishop that I broke the sabbath, and then he will report to the Honor Code Nazis that I'm not living worthily, and then I'll lose my scholarship, get kicked out of school, and have to flip hamburgers to put myself through community college.

#2. BYU mandates that all students have health insurance, and should you fail to provide private insurance for yourself, you are involuntarily enrolled in and required to pay for BYU provided health insurance. Under BYU insurance, you are only allowed to receive care at the BYU health center. Well, of course BYU only employs mormon doctors, including mental health care workers, so trying to talk to a therapist is no frickin better than talking to your bishop, and the insurance company absolutely will not pay for any other providers

Is this messed up or what? Can anybody say CULT!!!???

I wondered how many others who also may have attended BYU singles wards had similar/dissimilar experiences.

I know for a fact that both of my roommates (RM's - Returned Missionaries)had sex with their girlfriends while we attended the BYU 120th Single's Ward. One of them did "the deed" and repented and then... dang it!... did "the deed" again and hauled himself with much self-flogging to the bishop's office for more repentance. The bishop told him (paraphrased),

"Look, I can excommunicate you if you need to get more serious about not having sex"

That is a strange way to put it. Suffice it to say he did not get exed... or probation. One roomie got probation and (as I just said)the other who was guilty of doing "the deed" twice did not even get probation. But he was required to read a few guilt-inducing church pamphlets. What gives with that?

The bishop told him that if he had to excommunicate every couple in the ward that had sex before marriage there would practically be a dearth of persons to do the callings. Upon hearing this explanation, I chewed on that little nugget for a loooooong time. I found it very odd. I don't know if I really believe the bishop said it.

Then a year or so later a childhood friend of mine (who was also an RM) from California had the proverbial accidental experience of...

"OOPS!-It-Went-In-Sex" with his fiance'. All he merely intended to do was just "dance around the entrance a bit" while in his living on the edge hormonally induced moment of madness with the fiance'. He was dragged into church court when the fiance' exposed what had happened and he was promptly exed. Fiance', not temple endowed, was placed on probation... oh and was required to read not just the guilt-inducing church pamphlets but... since this happened in California... she also had to read --- GASP!!---

by Spencer W Kimball!

I know! Tell me about it! Horrible huh? I think I would have rather ben exed personally.

I mean with the "OOPS-It-Went-In" sex, the poor fellow didn't even get to enjoy it! Oh and he was so angstified!

(Is that not a hilarious description of the probably all too common RM sex? You have to admit that is funny!)

I have a few more examples but I think I have made my point. And just in case you didn't get the point... it is that the "spirit" is very capricious in its judiciousness as to punishments for RM's who have sex and whatnot.

Basically, my observation is that the further one gets away from Salt Lake City in miles, the more hard core and militant and by the book the punishment for RM's who have sex seems to be. Spirit Shmeerit.

Yep been there too.

I caught roommates at BYU in bed with their girls on two different occasions. I just backed out of the room, shut the door and went back to my own business. - 03/26/2005 - brandnewtatoo

Didn't actually do the deed but...

After some heavy petting with my girlfriend she went to confess to her bishop- different ward. Then her bishop called me in for a 'chat'. I don't know if he just wanted to hear the intimate details from two sources or what. I remember thinking at the time that "dude, you don't have any authority over me" but that didn't stop him. At the time I was at YBU as an RM and really wanted to marry the girl. But because we couldn't keep our hands off each other we kind of agreed to stop dating. I was totally devestated to hear that she was getting married four months later.

I don't recall exactly what the punishment was but is wasn't much. - 03/25/2005 - Stunted

When I was in a BYU single's ward...

My fiance (now ex wife) and I did the nasty about a hundred times, and when we confessed, all we had to do was not take the sacrament for a month.

My dad was a bishop on campus (not my bishop, thank goodness!), and he used to say that if it wasn't for oral sex, nearly every student would be temple worthy. - 03/25/2005 - Howard Roark

I was lucky.

I had really good roomates at BYU that knew I was partaking of the forbidden fruit with my girlfriends. We were all RM's but just didn't seem to care. If you're out there Lloyd and Dan I still think you were the coolest roommates ever.

I still can't believe how lucky I was to get randomly paired up with those guys. Every other apartment around us the guys acted like the police with each other. A couple of guys I know were kicked out of BYU for just sleeping - and that's all it was - over at their GFs.

It really did depend on who your roommates were as to how much you were able to get away with at BYU. - 03/25/2005 - TheRyeGuy

I had sex

with my girlfriend up until the night before she left for the MTC (Missionary Training Center), she had already been set apart. - 03/25/2005 - chuck

Not at BYU, but another university ward

after confessing to the bishop he told me it was "no big deal" and not to worry about it. No probation, no pamphlets, no nothing. - 03/25/2005 - wanda

My Campus Crusader Roomie

I went to a non-LDS school and my "Christian" roommate and his "Christian" girlfriend who were both heavy into Campus Crusade for Christ used to bang like bunnies! Once while I was in the room. It woke me up. Geez was that embarrassing. - 03/25/2005 - Anony Dude

Sheesh, was I the only one too scared to do it?

I had quite a few opportunities... but that was "the line" that I had to stop at, until I met my lovely wife. All the BIC indoctrination worked on me. My wife and I did fool around before we were officially married, but year-long engagements are just torture for that kinda thing :-)

I can understand why others might think it was kinda silly -- but there are some good health (mental & physical) reasons to refrain, or at least to discriminate. I think the Southpark episode about Paris Hilton sums it up quite nicely. - 03/25/2005 - ink

The whisperings of the spirit = abuse

The extreme latitude of "the Spirit" giving a simple pat on the back to one, and exing the hell out of another, reducing his/her life to social/emotional shambles as a result helped convince me that it was all a sham.

The whisperings of the spirit have been responsible for many atrocities, including the church getting sued for millions for sexual abuse and wranglings w/ the boy scouts, etc. Either the church will wise up and not rely on the spirit by instituting procedural safeguards or at least quit being the middle-man in some moral spheres.

The church should take a lesson from other churches and/or the gov't constitutional law. - 03/25/2005 - Squid

My bishop was pretty cool.

This was at my home ward not BYU, thank God I never went there. My then fiance and I went to confess that we had done the dirty, since we wanted to be married in the temple. We were both thinking we would have to wait months and months to be pronounced 'clean' again. All my bishop said was, "You're not pregnant are you?" No. "Can you shorten your engagement?" Yeah. That was it. No guilt trips, no assigments to read scriptures or Miracle of Forgiveness, nothing. - 03/26/2005 - anon

Huge gripe

Yep, this is a huge gripe I have with the church.

I had a girlfriend (non-member) in high school and we did the deed many times over 4 years. I'm talking less than 20 times, but still.

I hadn't been to the temple yet & this is before my mission.

My girlfriend and I broke up and after a year, I decided better confess & go on a mission, mainly because I was going no where fast after high school. :)

I was hauled into a full-paneled bishop's court, both counselors, a secretary & both my parents. It was humiliating, degrading. I bawled like a baby because I honestly felt bad for breaking the commandments & "making Jesus suffer more".

I wasn't ex-ed but I was disfellowshipped for about a year. A freakin' year, I could pray, talk, take the sacrament, nothing but HAD to attend ALL the meetings. I finally got through it and was able to go on a mission.

Good thing too because I met my wife on the mission (foreign mission). We've been married for 10 years now & have a beautiful almost-9 year old daughter & a almost-7 year old son! If I hadn't gone on the mission, I wouldn't have met her!

Anyways, where I work, there are several other mormons and we get together and chat about life & our history. Turns out a couple of the other guys were RM's, living in UT going to college & they fornicated tons of times AFTER the mission, AFTER being through the temple & covenants. The worst punishment they got was, "no sacrament, no tithe paying for a month".

I am so pissed at this system and how unfair it is. Either they are covenants & you can't break them without serious consequences or "f" the covenants & they are no consequences, but EVERYONE HAS TO PLAY BY THE SAME RULES!

Had I known that "Utah Mormon Justice" was considerably more lenient, I would have moved & then confessed my sins!

I don't think I'll get over this until I officially check out of the morg (slang for Mormon Church)! - 03/25/2005 - AZanon

Damage my father caused

Having read the personal stories here I can only imagine the damage my father did as branch president at one of the BYU student wards. Such a black and white personality with little compassion, at least from my experience, probably contributed to some of these sad commentaries. I also suspect him of being one of those "leaders" turned on by the juicy tidbits in the confessions. Pious in public, a pervert in private. Sad, sad, sad. - 03/25/2005 - Wallking in Darkness

My story

When I was at the Y, I didn't go all the way, but did pretty much everything else. My GF had no concscience about it, but I was an RM and expected more from myself so I confessed. The bishop was cool. I was really surprised because I thought I was a goner. He didn't even contact her bishop.

Well, one of my room mates knew about it and was heartened by my experience because he and his GF were always messing around. I don't know if they went all the way or not, but he went in and finally confessed. He got hauled in front of a church court. Same bishop and everything. I couldn't believe it. He only went in because I had been treated so leniently. - 03/25/2005 - Zim

When I attended the "Y" in 1980-81, I was a naive freshman that just wanted to fit in. Unfortunately, I was dating a black man (I am white) and my bishop asked me to turn in this "predator". I never did and was later sent home to think about my "choices".

Also, during this time of extreme stress-my roommate told the bishop I was severly depressed (I was not) and that I was going to commit suicide (not true). I then had to go to the psychologist and begin counseling.

He told me I was gay and may need bio-feedback to conquer my wayward thoughts. Hello?I am dating a MAN. When talking with other women my age-I found out that I wasn't the only one that was told they were "gay" and needed bio-feedback.. All from the same psychologist...hmmmm..

Also, it was well-known that if a woman put a tennis racket in her window sill--she was "available".

Daniel C. Peterson: "How My Best Intentions to Do What Was Right Got Me Trapped In a Spiral of Self-annihilation, Where I Was Forced To Defend The Church Just To Survive, So Completely Had I Come To Embody The Ideology, Destroying Myself In Order To Save Myself, Deep Down I Knowing I'm Being Dishonest But Can't Get Out And Nowhere Else To Go AAAAAUUGGGHHH".

Boyd K. Packer: "Truth: Our Mortal Foe"

Dallin H. Oaks: "A J.D. In Insanity: How I Actually Got Myself To Believe That The Burden Of Proof For The Book of Mormon Isn't On Us, But On Those Who Think Joseph Smith Wrote It, Even Though I Used To Be The Chief Justice On The Utah Supreme Court, Reviewing Things Like Capital Punishment Cases..."

Gordon Hinckley: "Prophethood By Proxy: A Look At FARMS and The Church's Gentile-Owned Public Relations Firm As Ultimate Ad Hoc 'Re-interpreters' of 'Eternal Doctrine'".

Thomas S. Monson: "The Archies: Stirring Music For The Soul"

Head of the BYU Archaeology Dept.: "No Way Out, And No Way I Can Explain It Without Getting Fired"

Richard G. Scott: "An Eight Hour Lecture On The Perverse Joy Of Boring People To Tears, No Matter How Exciting The Topic"

Louis Midgley: "Why I Love Mormonism: How The Parochial World I Live In In Allows Me To Believe I'm An 'Intellectual"

Davis Bitton: "Why The Best Way To Keep Believing Something Is True Is To 'Uncouple' Your Belief From The Whole Question Of Whether It IS True Or Not, And How Not Admit It To Yourself"

Mark E. Peterson chair at the School of African-American Studies

The Paul H. Dunn chair at the School of Creative Writing

The Fanny Alger chair at the school of Women's Studies

The Joseph Smith, Jr. chair at the School of Egyptology

The Grant Palmer chair in the School of American & Church History.

The Murphy/Southerton chair in the School of Biological Sciences.

The Steve Benson chair in the School of Religious Studies

The Boyd K Packer chair in School of Industrial & Factory Engineering

The Ethan Smith chair in the School of Hebrew and Ancient Studies

The Greg W. Dodge chair in the School of Cognitive Dissonance

Boyd K Packer chair at the School of Tolerance, Diversity and Ecumenical Studies

Spencer W Kimball chair at School of Native American Genetic and DNA Research

Carl Sagan chair at the School of Kolobian Astronomy

Mark Hofmann chair at the School of General Authority Ethics in Public Relations - by cricket

The Mary Elizabeth Rollins-Lightner-Smith Chair at the BYU School of Marriage and Family Planning

The Ed Meacham Chair at the ASU School of Political Correctness

The Carol Lynn Pearson chair at the School of Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgendered Studies - by Cora Judd

The Captain Moroni chair of Military Studies (all ROTC courses will focus on digging ditches, nothing else)

The Joseph Smith/Brigham Young chair of Reproductive Studies

The Joseph Smith/Brigham Young chair of Gynecology (must be able to perform a pap smear with nothing other than their own appendages)

The Brother of Jared chair of Naval Architecture (The Nephi co-chair)

The Joseph Smith chair of Ancient History (no knowledge of the subject matter required)

The Joseph Smith chair of Ancient Languages (same requirements as previously mentioned chair) - by the land of oz

Thomas S. Monson Chair at the School of Cosmetology

Dallin Oaks Chair at the School of Pharisiacal Law - by Stray Mutt

The Moroni Chair at the School for Parapsychology

The Mormon Chair at the School of Alchemy and Bookbinding

The Nephi Chair at the School of Criminal Justice. The "head" of the department will be named in honor of Laban - by brian-the-christ

Kyle Whittingham- Advisor to the Chair of the Department of Procrastination and Lost Opportunity. (Currently on extended sabatical) - by Bob

Mister Ed - Chairman of the Department of Pre-Columbian Equine Studies - by Otremer

The Joseph Fielding Smith school of Anthropology

The Brigham H. Roberts school of Wine Studies

The Moroni school of Metallurgical Sciences

The Daniel Peterson School of Curelom Studies

The Ezra Taft Benson School of Right-wing Political Scientology

The Spencer W. Kimball School for The Conservation of Little Birdies

The Hugh Pinnock School of Criminal Detection - activejackmormon

Joseph Smith chair at the School of Religion and Ethics Dept - by Katsura

Sheri Drew chair at the School of the Holocaust and No Special Rights for Gays Studies - by Hellen

The Orrin Porter Rockwell Chair in the Criminal Justice Department - by Randy J.

The Joseph Smith Chair of Adolescent Sexuality

The Brigham Young Chair of Innovative Divine Justice Through Blood Atonement

The John D. Lee Chair of Highway Safety - by pioneer stock

The Gene Cook chair of Modern Music and Aviation Studies

The Joseph Smith chair of Geology of Seer Stones

The Joseph Smith chair of Money and Banking - by franz

The Shiz Respiratory Research Center nt

Boyd K. Packer School of Factory Management

The Laman and Lemuel Chair of Dermatology Evolution - by alex

The Gordon B. Hinkley Chair at the School of Historical Artifacts Acquisition

The Mark Hoffman chair at the School of Historical Documents Preservation - by austinapostate

The Gordon B. Hinkley Chair of Cranial Proctology - by SD

The John D. Lee School of Hostage Negotiation

The Marie Osmond School of Incontinence - Otremer

Introduction: Presidential Plagiarizing for the Lord

Recent attention at the ExMormon.org bulletin board has focused on the plagiarized basis for Mormon President Ezra Taft Benson's famous sermon on pride, lifted in large measure--and without attribution--from the writings of Christian author, C.S. Lewis.

http://www.exmormon.org/boards/w-agora/view.php?bn=exmobb_recovery&key=1074687779&newest=1075697827

The plagiarism problem, however, has not been the sole authorship (so to speak) of the President of the Mormon Church.

It has also been a problem for the President of Brigham Young University.

On 25 April 1996, the then-incoming president of BYU (and General Authority), Merrill J. Bateman, delivered his inaugural address to the student body assembled in the Marriott Center, entitled "Response to Change."

http://www.byu.edu/fc/ee/w_mjb496.htm

Bateman was subsequently accused of stealing--without attribution--portions of his remarks from an article published earlier the same year, authored by conservative philosopher Gertrude Himmelfarb, entitled, "The Christian University: A Call to Counterrevolution." (First Things, no. 59, January 1996, pp. 16-19)

http://www.leaderu.com/ftissues/ft9601/articles/himmelfarb.html

The plagiarism accusation caused an uproar in academic circles, leading Bateman to deny the charge. The accusation was recently mentioned in an article appearing in the Desert News, in conjunction with the end of Bateman's tenure as BYU president:

Bateman, who served as the LDS Church's presiding bishop until his appointment as university president, was accused of plagiarizing the ideas of neo-conservative scholar Gertrude Himmelfarb during his 1996 inaugural address. Bateman denied the plagiarism charge.

http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,465034158,00.html


Comparing Bateman's Inaugural Address with Himmelfarb's Article

Although the manuscript copy of Bateman's 1996 inaugural address offered a single footnote reference to Himmelfarb's ideas (located on p. 18 of her article), Bateman failed in the spoken version of those remarks to acknowledge his reliance on Himmelfarb's ideas--thus, leaving the false impression that her words were his own.

A point-by-point, topical comparison of the Himmelfarb and Bateman texts raises serious questions about Bateman's intellectual honesty:


On Disparaging Truth, Knowledge and Objectivity

Himmelfarb

"Today many eminent professors in some of our most esteemed universities disparage the ideas of truth, knowledge, and objectivity as naive or disingenuous at best, as fraudulent and despotic at worst."

"Above all, it is the truth that is denigrated."

"Finally, and most disastrously, the university, liberated from religious dogma, has also become liberated from the traditional academic dogma, the belief in truth, knowledge, and objectivity."

Bateman

"During the past two decades, however, a number of well-known educators have begun to denigrate truth, knowledge, and objectivity."


On Politicization of the University By Interest Groups

Himmelfarb

"It [the university] is also a highly politicized institution; no longer subject to any religious authority, the university is at the mercy of the whims and wills of interest groups and ideologies."

Bateman

"The university becomes a politicized institution that is at the mercy and whims of various interest groups."


On the Secularization of the University and Its Hostility to Religion

Himmelfarb

"For we are now confronted with a university . . . that has almost totally abandoned its original mission. It is now not merely a secular institution but a secularist one, propagating secularism as a creed, a creed that is not neutral as among religions but is hostile to all religions, indeed to religion itself."

Bateman

"If university scholars reject the notion of ‘truth,’ there is no basis for intellectual and moral integrity. Secularism becomes a creed that is no longer neutral but hostile to religion."


On the Rise of Radical Relativism

Himmelfarb

"The animating spirit of postmodernism is a radical relativism and skepticism that rejects any idea of truth, knowledge, or objectivity."

Bateman

"The driving theory is a radical relativism and skepticism that rejects any idea of truth or knowledge."


Before Giving Another Speech, Bateman Should Perhaps Review BYU's Honor Code

BYU's Honor Code says the following about academic honesty and plagiarism:

The first injunction of the BYU Honor Code is the call to "be honest." Students come to the university not only to improve their minds, gain knowledge, and develop skills that will assist them in their life's work, but also to build character. "President David O. McKay taught that character is the highest aim of education" (The Aims of a BYU Education, p. 6). It is the purpose of the BYU Academic Honesty Policy to assist in fulfilling that aim.

BYU students should seek to be totally honest in their dealings with others. They should complete their own work and be evaluated based upon that work. They should avoid academic dishonesty and misconduct in all its forms, including but not limited to plagiarism, fabrication or falsification, cheating, and other academic misconduct.

http://fhss.byu.edu/polsci/Goodliffe/313/2002/syllabus.htm#Plagiarism


Conclusion: Fellow General Authority Boyd K. Packer Rides to Bateman's Rescue

A few months after exposure of BYU President Bateman as a plagiarizer, Boyd K. Packer issued what some saw as a thinly-veiled attack against Bateman's Mormon critics.

At October 1996 General Conference, in a sermon entitled, "The Twelve Apostles," Packer warned:

Some few within the Church, openly or perhaps far worse, in the darkness of anonymity, reproach their leaders in the wards and stakes and the Church, seeking to make them "an offender for a word," [Isaiah 29:21; see also 2 Nephi 27:32] as Isaiah said. To them the Lord said, "Cursed are all those that shall lift up the heel against mine anointed, saith the Lord, and cry they have sinned when they have not sinned before me, saith the Lord, but have done that which was meet in mine eyes, and which I commanded them.

"But those who cry transgression do it because they are the servants of sin, and are the children of disobedience themselves . . .

"Because they have offended my little ones they shall be severed from the ordinances of mine house.

"Their basket shall not be full, their houses and their barns shall perish, and they themselves shall be despised by those that flattered them.

"They shall not have right to the priesthood, nor their posterity after them from generation to generation." [D&C 121: 16-17, 19 21]

That terrible penalty will not apply to those who try as best they can to live the gospel and sustain their leaders. Nor need it apply to those who in the past have been guilty of indifference or even opposition, if they will repent and confess their transgressions, and forsake them.[See D&C 58:43]

http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/conferences/96_oct/Packer_Apostles.htm

Take heart, however. If Packer comes to a Mormon leader's defense, you know that leader did something wrong.

Would Elder Clate W. Mask Jr. of the 2nd Quorum of the Seventy be considered a small fish on this site?

Well, anyway, it seems a son-in-law of his will be placed in a high academic position in the physics department at BYU without the properly advancing in rank. GA relatives at BYU seem to be above all that pesky "Rank Advancement Review" nonsense. - 12/20/2003 - anon

The latest news from BYU is very interesting for those that enjoy debating the merits of the theory of evolution.

It appears that "A Brigham Young University professor has been tapped to join a project the National Science Foundation likens to the missions that placed a man on the moon and that deciphered the human genome."

"The NSF's "Assembling the Tree of Life" project aims to discover the evolutionary history of all life on Earth. Jack Sites, BYU professor of integrative biology, is part of the team that recently earned a $2.4 million grant to tackle the branch that includes scaly reptiles like lizards and snakes". "

So here we have a BYU professor that is going to be working on a project that is tasked with learning about the "evolutionary history of all life on Earth".

Do you think that when he stands in front of all his peers some day to report his findings that he'll start his presentation by reading from Genesis or the Book of Moses? I would surely hope not - he'd be laughed off the project! But of course, we should not fear to bear our testimonies in the face of persecution, right?!?!?

There were a couple of interesting "biological stunts" listed that reptiles (Dr. Sites' "favorite subjects") can perform:

* Seventy species of lizards reproduce asexually (no males exist).

* The sex of some species is determined by nest temperature during incubation.

And this in a publication by BYU no less!!!

I guess the Proclamation on the Family really only applies to the human species, more likely just to Homo Sapiens.

Watch for a press release from LDS.ORG soon clarifying that position! Wouldn't want any misunderstanding of the Lord's handiwork now would we?!?!?

When I was at BYU (1998-20001), I remember there were a couple series of letters to the editor in the Daily Universe which were hilarious, even to a TBM (True Believing Mormon) such as I then was.

The first one started with some guy complaining about girls dressing immodestly on campus. How dare they walk around and tempt him like that! Then another guy (or maybe it was the same guy) wrote in complaining that some of the girls wear their book bags with the strap across their chests so that it goes between their breasts. He thought this was immodest. Some girl replied that he was a pervert. Does anybody have a copy of this? Surely someone must have kept it as a souvenir?

The other one that someone might have a copy of is the "controversy" over the statue of a family outside (I think) the Kimball Tower. Some students were offended by the idea that the supposed husband and wife in the statue were not wearing rings on their ring finger. Does anybody have a copy of this?

December of 1974. I was living in Helaman Halls, finishing up my teaching credential and subbing for the Provo school district 2 or 3 times a weeks. I paid for both my housing and my tuition out of my own checking account. I had purchased and was paying for a new little car IN MY OWN NAME.

When I had signed the "contract" to live in the dorms, since I knew I was finishing in December, I made the appropriate changes re the dates of occupancy (I was not staying until April). I even attached a memo stating this to the contract and wrote the same a full time teaching job in Spanish Fork). HOUSING refused to let me out of the contract! I showed them the legal documents but they said I had tricked them; that they couldn't be expected to scutinize every contract yadayadayada.

It took about 6 weeks, but with a sincere threat of legal action, they let me out of the contract---but then they wanted to send my deposit monies to my MOTHER. Not that she wouldn't have given me the money! back, but here I am, an adult, paying my own way...their resoning? "...well, sister, I am sure your mother either gave you the money or enable you to earn that money. We'll send it to her and she can decide how to disburse it." Again, the threat of legal action reined them in.

Several years later, I'm moving out of Wymount Terrace with my deadbeat RM and Housing once again wants to rip me off. They will have to repaint our cinderblock apartment and plan on charging me $1 for every nail hole. #1--there were no nail holes put in by me and #2, I had photos taken of each existing nailhole the day we moved in with a copy of the Daily Universe in the photo. They claimed that somehow I had drilled the holes on that day and then fradulently taken the photos. Again, I threatened legal action, so they caved but not before telling me "....BYU IS the Church and I can't understand why you are putting yourself above the Church"

Baloney--BYU and the Church are businesses built on the backs of frightened sheep.

A German friend of mine living in the BYU German house was growing marijuana in the window of his bedroom. His dear, sweet and stupid room mates would ask him what the plant was. He'd say, "I don't know. It's just a plant." As a result, he never got caught.

"If you don't like it here, go somewhere else" is always the standad TBM response to any kind of complaint or criticism of BYU. I remember one time when a girl wrote a polite letter to the university newspaper, stating that the bookstore only sold low-fat yoghurt, and requesting that, since she liked full-fat yoghurt, the bookstore stock full-fat as well as low-fat yoghurt.

The following day, the paper printed a response from another girl student, reminding the student body that there are thousands of people who would love to go to BYU, whatever kind of yoghurt the bookstore sells, so if anyone isn't happy with the bookstore's yoghurt, they should either put up with it, or go somewhere else!

Conversation overheard in a Doctrine & Covenants class, when the instructor talked about "Pugilists":

BOY (whispers to girl beside him): What's a pugilist?

GIRL (with the confidence of the faithful): It's someone who commits adultery.

BOY: Oh yeah. I think a knew that.

(A pugilist is a professional fighter, like a boxer or a wrestler)

BYU traffic office issues different kinds of parking permit -- "R" which allows you to park only in areas marked R, which are all some distance from the main campus, and "Y" which allows you to park in all R areas and areas marked Y, which are much closer to the campus.

My first year, I bought an R permit, but got so fed up with having to walk almost a mile between my car and the campus, that the second year, I bought a Y permit. To be fair, I did receive specific instructions that I was to remove the old R sticker from my car's window before placing my new Y sticker in the window, but since it made no difference to where I was allowed to park, I couldn't see the point and didn't bother. Besides, I kind of liked the idea of having a little collection of parking stickers recording how long I'd been at the University.

However, I got a ticket, for all of five bucks. I figured this was so dumb, if I just spoke politely with the traffic office, they would see reason and drop the absurd fine.

Nothing doing. In a long conversation that progressed to a heated argument, they admitted they couldn't see any reason or logic behind the rule, but insisted that since the rule existed, I was going to have to pay the fine.

So I went to the student ombudsman, who agreed this was stupid, and requested the traffic office drop the fine. The traffic office displayed what a pointless farce the ombudsman is by *ignoring* him, and insisting that I pay the fine.

So, finally, I agreed to pay them their five bucks, reminding them that when I graduated, the BYU Alumni office was going to request a big, fat donation from me, and then keep requesting further big, fat donations from then on. I gave the traffic office my solemn word that if they insisted pay their stupid $5 fine, I would do so, and then never, ever contribute a single cent to BYU again. It was up to them. What did they think would be in BYU's best interests?

The traffic office insisted I pay the fine.

So I wrote them out a cheque for $5.00

Sure enough, when I graduated, the Alumni office requested a big, fat donation -- suggesting $100 for every year I'd been at the Y. I wrote them back, enclosing the traffic office's original ticket, and told them they could have $5. If the traffic office would let them have it.

BYU's Vice President in the 1960s, Earl C. Crockett, reveals in his journal a really ugly incident with Ernest L. Wilkinson in the early 1960s. Crockett and wife, Wilkinson and wife, and Harold B. Lee (then still an Apostle) and wife, had all gone to Hawaii on church and BYU business. Arriving at a very prestigious dinner that they were all attending, Wilkinson pulled out a chair for his wife Alice and when she went to sit down, he pulled it all the way out from under her and she dropped to the floor. Wilkinson laughed himself silly at his own cleverness and his wife's humiliation.

Harold B. Lee was HORRIFIED at what Wilkinson had done and held it against him ever after. At Lee's insistence, Wilkinson hit a glass ceiling in the church and never rose higher than he was at that fateful moment. What a creep.

Oh, and Crockett also confirms in his journal that Wilkinson "took delight" in bringing Freshman women to their knees with bone-crushing handshakes at Fall registration. Ah the neuroses of little men...

Back in the early 80's when I lived at the King Henry apts. out bishop "Bishop Sparks" we called him Sparky. Anyway he was really hung up on the sex thing. He gave one of his long anticipated sex talks in Priesthood one Sunday that was hilarious. He had two points of advise that would save our souls.

#1 - don't let our girlfriends touch our thighs...reason....it's turns him on when his wife does it.

#2 - don't kiss a girl or hold her for more then 15 seconds...reason...women are like "bacon grease" once you heat them up you can't cool them down!!

I can't believe no-one yet has brought up the greatest BYU story ever told. This made headlines in the Salt Lake tribune. A few days later, I was (secretly) attending a meeting of the U of U's Lutheran Society, and they were all asking me incredulously if this was REALLY true. These people knew a few things about BYU, but this was SO ridiculous, they couldn't believe it. So here it is:

Four friends are out and about in Provo. They go to a bar and have a Bud each, after which they go to the Wilkinson building and play some video games for a while. A virtuous young lady passing them thinks she smells alcohol.

So she calls 911.

The BYU police not being available, the Provo PD attends. By this time, however, the four boys in question have already left the Wilkinson in the direction of the main campus. So the Provo PD, presumably not having any criminals to catch, assign FOUR officers to search the campus and track them down.

Having caught them, the cops detain them for the heinous crime of exercizing their rights under the Constitution, and escort them to the Student Life office.

Student Life discovers that three of them are not students, so releases them (how kind!) with "a warning." Against what, nobody will ever know . . .

However, the fourth one IS a student. He escapes expulsion on agreeing to submit to two conditions:

1) a $1000 fine

2) he undergo counseling for his "alcohol-addiction problem"

And all for a bottle of Bud!

This was around the spring of 1995. Check around if you don't believe me!

As newly married BYU students in the mid-80s, our ward had a member of the Stake Presidency (PoliSci prof Stan Larson) give a 'special presentation' on Church positions -- er, doctrines -- on sex, in a joint session of Priesthood/Relief Society. This session had been hyped for a few weeks previously, and we had been instructed beforehand -- doh! I mean, in prior weeks -- to think of questions to bring, to ask him for a Q&A session.

People wrote their questions anonymously on note cards, and then he drew them out and read them. Naturally, one of the first was an inquiry on the acceptability of oral sex.

His disingenuous response was: "Well umm, oral sex is a, ummm, rather general and vague term; ummm, I don't know what *YOU* mean when *YOU* say 'oral sex', but umm, well, if you want to, for example, kiss your wife's breasts, then that's between the two of you." And then quickly went on to the next question. Lots of uncomforable looks around the room at each other, wondering if this was some kind of joke....

This guy had a joint PhD/JD from Harvard & Tufts, but thought kissing breasts was 'oral sex'? Wow, that's gotta be one crazyass adventurous bedroom at the Larson house!!

When I was a freshman at BYU in 1987, I was preparing to go on a mission. As part of that process, you have Bishop and Stake President interviews.

Well, I'm in with a member of my Stake Presidency, and we're sitting on chairs with rollers. He rolls on over to me and puts his legs on either side of one of my legs and puts his hands on my thighs. I'm thinking "What the hell is going on here?"

He asks me where I grew up, I told him on a farm in Washington. He then makes the obvious mental jump and asks me if I'd ever had sex with animals! Huh? He explained that it is very common among farm boys. Ok....

He then went on to explain how in all his years of interviewing young men, he'd only met one who would ejaculate when taking a piss. He explained that he had to ask this young man what the 'stuff' looked like when it came out to 'verify' that it was indeed what he suspected.

He went on and on about masturbation and and deviant sex. Keep in mind that I'm just there for a mission interview, I'm not there confessing anything. The entire time, he just kind of massaged my thigh between his legs. I was 18 and just wanted to go on mission for the love of God! This guy was beyond belief. If I'd have had more huevos back then, I'd have told him to shut the f--k up and get his hands off me. REALLY disturbing this guy

I'm a BYU graduate, life long Mormon (but completely inactive since 22, descendant of blue blood Mormons, polygamists, apostles, etc). I went to BYU for both undergrad and law school (after a 2 year hiatus from Happy Valley). On my first day of law school as a first year student, I went "across the street" to pick up my activity card. The person behind the desk wouldn't give it to me and said two gentlemen would like to talk to me.

I was escorted down the hall by two geeky looking guys in short white sleeved shirts and ties. We sat down in an office and they closed the door. The conversation went like this:

First geek: "I'm Brother Johnson and I'm the Compliance Officer (or whatever the hell his title was) of Standards. This (motioning to his compatriot) is Brother Wilson and he is a Compliance Officer In-Training and just learning the ropes. Ahem. Ahem. It has just come to our attention that you are not wearing a bra."

(Both Compliance Officers stare at my chest.)

Me (looking down to see what they are looking at): "Oh, do you think I need one?" (I am only a 34A and that is pushing it.)

Bro. Johnson: "Ahem. Uh. (Cough, cough) Well, uh, the Dress Code that you signed when you applied to BYU said you would wear a bra."

Me: "I am really surprised that you were able to notice that I'm not wearing a bra. You must have been looking pretty hard to find this infraction. But, like you said, I signed up to the Dress Code. I really appreciate you bringing this matter to my attention so that I can be sure to uphold the Standards of this fine institution. Thank you so much for your diligence in searching for this infraction, so I could see the errors of my way. Now, can I have my activity card, please?"

Bro. Johnson: "You may when you go back to your apartment and uh ahem put on a bra. Then you can come back over and pick up your card."

Me: "Oh thank you so much. And when I do that should I ask for you so that you may do another inspection?"

Bro. Johnson: (Cough cough) "Ahem. Uh, no, that will not be necessary. Thank you that will be all."

Here's a story. I'm now a criminal defense attorney, and I went to BYU Law School. While at BYU, I was approached by a young woman in my ward. She told me that one of her roommates had left an anonymous note on the door of the landlady of her building.

The note said that he had had a boy all night in her room. It wasn't signed, and thus, it could have been dropped there by all types of people. Anyway, she was now facing this crazy, fancy court type proceeding, and she wanted me to get involved. I said okay, but I had no idea what I was in for.

At the time I was a new convert of about a year. And I saw the best in people. Deep in my heart, I wanted just to see that she got a good, fair process inasmuch as that is possible at this truly odd University. So I set up a meeting with a bigwig in the Honor Department. You know, the quintessential, overweight, GA self righteous type. I simply wanted to figure out how the process worked before trying to help at least to make it fair.

So, he and I are sitting in his office, deep in the Honor Code Department. Now, I was going to be endowed in about 2 months. But at that time I was wearing a pair of long khaki shorts which you'd wear golfing, etc. I had my legs crossed, and so the guys asks me, in the middle of our meeting, completely out of the blue, the following:

"Are you an active member?" Yes, I replied.

"Then why aren't you wearing your garments?" he asked.

Now, this may not seem like a big deal, but it just typifies the ridiculousness, smallishness of the church at times. Utah has nothing to do with anything, and God is utterly laughing about that type of conduct. What a small person he was.

Thanks for letting me chime in.

I went to BYU, and am pragmatic enough to realize much of their policies were stupid, but my favorite act of disobedience was when I got a parking ticket that was non-deserved, and they didn't have any interest in hearing my side of the story, So I went ahead and paid it, but took it out of my tithing. Never told the Bishop, just reported myself as a full payer(which I was, minus the $12), and left the mitigated parking fine between the Lord and myself.

One other incident of note, I was 22 years old, married, not lived at home for 4 years, my wife and I supporting a child, paying every penny of my tuition with part time work and loans and they were mailing a copy of my grades to my parents. I stopped by the records department and told them how insane that was (my grades were very good, FYI, I had no problem with my parents seeing them, but it was the paternalistic attitude that bothered me.) Records office said it was policy. I realized they wouldn't listen to reason, so I changed tactics and said "well the reason I do not want them mailed out is because both of my parents died in a car crash last year, and my aunt lives in the house where you mail the grades, and it upsets her to get the letters addressed to her dead sister" They had no choice but to stop.

In my experience, keeping a sense of humor, and an agile mind will negotiate one through the BYU silliness. In the end it was my choice to stay there, and it was a good one.

Two semesters, that's all I could handle at BYU! I went in 1989 and about everything stunk. I had come out for a visit about a year earlier and a friend had set up the perfect BYU campus visit which included a date, tour, just about everything great. One of the main reasons for my move to Utah was I was starting to deal with being gay and I figure that Provo would stop that right quick.

I had just got out of the Navy and moved into these great new BYU approved apartments. I was the first one to move in. When my first apartment mate moved in, he barely spoke two words to me and had has dad install a lock on his bedroom door. Come to find out that all these mormon boys were all friends from Arkansas. While the other two were nice, that first one had major social skill issues. BYU is a ton of rich people from California.

The only thing I about BYU I remember liking were the Tator Tots at the CougarEat, intramural flag football, learning Tennis from Andrew and reading the off-campus banned newspapers.

Lots of weirdness happend when I was there. In the school newspaper there was big report about someone flashing girls in the library. Seems this kid would wear a sweatshirt or a sweater and have his penis hanging out underneath. When he saw a girl, he would lift up his shirt, exposing himself.

I moved from that apartment to a condo south of campus. This time I shared a room with a kid from Washington. We didn't get along. I had stopped going to the ward (with the "hanging bishop" who wouldn't sign your form unless you attended church 80% of the time) and had the form that we had to get signed to keep enrolling signed by a local baptist preacher. And of course, I caught my roommate in bed with his girlfriend.

Well things with my roommate deteriorated and I found out what Standards was really used for - telling on people you don't like in hopes they get kicked out of BYU. Its sort of a big brother thing. My roommate had turned me in for watching Showtime after dark movies and cursing. I of course did the only thing I could do, turn him in for fornication.

When I went to the office, the counselor said that those were small compared to this and he pulls out my form. I told him that I didn't consider myself a mormon anymore and was returning to being a baptist. Wrong answer. He said unless I got my bishop to sign a new form, that the Standards hold on my registration would not be lifted.

Pissed off, I decided to leave after that semester and I moved to SLC to attend U or U. I wasn't about to be blackmailed or coerced into attending church or confessing my sins to anyone.

On a sidenote, at the U or U, the kid who was exposing himself at the library. He was a RM. He was on my dorm room floor over Christmas break and he showed me the offending member. He certainly had something to show.

I had a creepy experience at my BYU graduation. I was one of two salutatorians. As such, I was invited to breakfast and lunch with the university prez and general authority du jour. I was informed the morning of graduation that I had been demoted from "salutatorian" status to "just second or third". Ok.... Thanks for telling me AFTER I had already put "salutatorian" on some grad school apps (got rejected later from one grad school for "falsifying" that information inadvertantly).

Worse yet, the valedictorian was - surprise! - the university president's son. Me and the other non-salutatorian salutatorian were therefore relegated to peon status.

Carlos Asay spoke. To sum up, it was boring, stilted, and uninspired. Frankly I expected better.

At the luncheon afterward, the other peon and me were completely ignored. The visiting LDS royalty and other families of university employees were introduced. I expected, after being blocked from speaking at the commencement ceremonies, that myself and the other peon would be acknowledged in some way. We were not. The other peon slinked out the back afterward. My husband insisted that we would leave through the front door, the way that we came in, and that we would say a formal goodbye to our unbelievably rude hosts. At least we behaved with dignity.

At the time my mom was newly baptized in the church. She had planned to fly to the college to watch my commencement but never made it. I am glad she didn't bother. This experience was the first clue I had that something was rotten in the state of Denmark - er - Utah. You could not have found a more rude, self-centered, arrogant bunch of people anywhere. I've met bona fide celebrities, former US presidents and Fortune 500 business execs who were far more thoughtful, charming, inspiring, and well-spoken.

I fully expected that people who claimed to represent Jesus Christ should be genuinely Christ-like. I expected kindness, sincerity, warmth, humility... These GA's claim to be witnesses of a Christ that they clearly do not resemble, know or understand. That was a scary but necessary "revelation" of sorts for me. It was painful, but thankfully it happened so that I could see my way out.

In memory of my grandfather. Upon reading the remarks of whomever wrote "In the crowd", I was very suprised to find my grandfather's name written in the same sentance as "boring, stilted and uninspired". They even went so far as to say "These GA's claim to be witnesses of a Christ that they clearly do not resemble, know or understand." I am absolutley appalled, offended and hurt! I love my grandpa and in his behalf I would like to say that I am sorry for any offended feelings.

My grandfather absolutely resembled, knew and understood our Savior, he was constantly sacrifing his life for others. He served numberous missions, spent most of his life studying and reading not just the scriptures but other books written by our prophets, and was continuously giving love to his family, friends and those he didn't even know. He continues to inspire me even without him here.

15 years ago when I saw my now hubby at the pool at the apt complex we lived in i knew i had to do something dramatic. He was one of the "ward" honcho guys but at the same time he was going through the babes. Well after a few dates it was apparent that he wasn't going to back down from some good oral fun , he was good at giving and talking (still is). And we convinced ourselves we didn't commit a big enough crime to tell the bish about so we got married in the temple. To this day sex is still great!

I got turned out of the testing center for a days growth. I got back in line, and the subjective judgment of another testing center worker deemed me OK to enter. or maybe it was the secret handshake that got me in.

I should have had a beard card. I can't shave closely or my whole neck and face break out in painful rashes. That's usually sufficient grounds for being granted a "beard card" - an official allowance for having the appearance of evil.

The doctor writes you a little note that says either (a) you get a rash when shaving, or (b) you're really ugly without a beard.

I probably could have had both excuses. - Blabber

There are funnier things for example, despite the fact that virtually every photograph of Brigham Young (with the exception of the very earliest) has him sporting a beard to his belly, the life-size bronze of him in front of the administration building has him clean shaven. Talk about historical revisionism! That used to really piss me off. - Shane

http://www.byu.edu/about/photos/campus/FS5.jpg

It always bothered me when I went to religion classes and a young co-ed would give the opening prayer giving thanks for the opportunity to be at the Lord's or thy university. Also, grading in religion classes should be pass/fail. In my first semester after the mission, I got a 3.9 GPA with my only A minus in a religion clas so I didn't make the dean's list. It also ticked me off that no one in my major made the dean's list that semester since I was a poli sci major bunched in the same college as the family science majors. Anyway, I went to the religion prof and told him my grievance. He wouldn't change my grade from the A-minus to an A since he had a policy of giving out only one A per semester. I missed one question on the final. Needless to say, I got out of there in 2.5 years and married a girl I met in law school at a different university. Enter to learn, go forth to earn!

Although I do miss the taco salads at the old cougar eat. - 11/07/2002 - anon

One semester, our ward met in the Karl G. Maeser building on campus. In the room where we had sacrament, there was a huge portrait of Brother Maeser hanging behind the pulpit. It kind of puts a new spin on 3 Nephi 27. I had a little trouble having sacrament on the same table where they used bunson burners too. But if you got bored, you could also look up at the periodic table to the elements. The editing of the movies at the old Varsity theater was fun too. Sometimes, they would miss some of the content. In the Naked Gun with Leslie Nielsen, they forgot to take out the line "nice beaver" when he is looking up at Priscilla Presley on the ladder and she hands him a stuffed beaver. - 11/07/2002 - anon

In the spring of 1978 as a non-Mormon student at BYU engaged to a returned missionary after having spent almost two years in Utah attending the "Y", I found myself having a lot of questions about Mormonism. I remember walking around in a state of shock at some of the things I had found out about the Mormon church. One of the big issues for me was the fact that Joseph Smith had been a mason. My Book of Mormon teacher was George(?) Durant and I remember all the talk about "secret combinations" and how evil they were. Then I did some reading on my own and found out that ole Joe was a Mason. Well, I had a big problem with that.

My fiance's True Believing Mormon (TBM) family couldn't answer any of the questions I had; they sort of treated me like I had some kind of contagious disease and they kept trying to find a doctor to refer me to. (The higher up in the Mormon Church the better.) My one TBM future Sister in lawIL had an uncle who was some big wig whatever at BYU but we didn't want to involve the family in our situation (hubby, then fiancee at the time was having his doubts about "the" church as well) so we looked for someone else to talk to. I went to my Gospel Doctrine instructor since he always seemed to have all the answers. He made an appointment with me and it had to be one of the strangest conversations I've ever had with anyone in my life.

I really wanted him to give me answers; I wanted to believe there were justifiable explanations for all of the shocking things I had learned about Mormonism. I remember blurting out all of the things I had learned with Joe's Masonic endeavors right at the top of the list. I was next to tears and when I stopped the questions and sat back and waited for him to straighten it all out for me, I came to the sickening realization that there wouldn't be any quelling of my fears-there would'nt be any consoling explanations to ease my doubts because well, they were all totally justified. The only choice I had was to violate my own conscience and "pretend' that all was well in Zion. When Mr. Pace saw that I couldn't do that, (I never said that I couldn't or wouldn't do that, but he could see that was not an option for me),his only advice was to break off the engagement--my fiancee could never be happy with me. (Huh!! What did he know after 24 years we're still happily married)

So after all the times Mormons around me had refered to their beliefs and church as being "The Truth", I found out that it was all a crock of lies and there were no answers. One would think that if a man like George Pace really believed what he was preaching, he would have at least made an attempt to have convinced me. But all he could do was advise me to move on and try to minimize the collateral damage to any TBMs I had had contact with.

I'll never forget the first time I went to a BYU FHE. I was a convert and never attended primary but had a strong testimony (which I still do). Then the group starts singing Jesus wants me for a sunbeam (with all of its emphasis on "beam"). I think to myself, the missionaries didn't tell me about this. What church is this? That song still cracks me up. Also, I had a roommate who broke the 7th (fornication) but wasn't kicked out for honor code because him mom pulled some strings. I think that's how the honor code works. You can get kicked out for masturbation but not for fornication. Interesting. - 08/10/2002 - anon

I admit it, and I'm ashamed of it - but I turned a roommate in for having purchased a rifle and storing it in his closet - a real BYU no-no. We were rooming together in what was then called Stover Hall, circa 1970.

Back then (but certainly not today, thank goodness) I was a devout ultra-conservative, loyal to all things Republican. Over a short period of time and for reasons I couldn't fathom, my roommate renounced the right and embraced liberalism, which sent me in to apoplectic fits. Our political arguments escalated in duration and intensity, until it was everything we could do to keep from killing each other.

At one point, Allen (name changed) bought a rifle and stuffed it in his closet, supposedly to fend off hordes of John Birchers he was sure would come crashing through our window. This gave me the perfect opportunity to rat him out, which I did. I answered the official's obtrusive questions, praying Allen would get kicked out on his butt because of it; but it never happened, much to my disgust.

My political beliefs have shifted since then, and I look back at my squealing with profound regret. So, Allen - if you're reading this - please forgive me. You were right all along.

This happened to my sister around 1974 when she first started at BYU. She told me this story first hand just a couple days ago so I have no doubt its true.

She was a freshman at BYU and decided to get dressed up for a dance, so she wore a nice dress that complemented her figure.

Back then they had guys whose job it was to screen the people coming to the dance to ensure they met the dress code. My sister is very attractive and fairly well endowed. When the guy got to her he asked her to step out of the line so he could talk to her. He then proceeded to tell her, within earshot of everyone else, that her dress was too tight and clearly showed that she had two breasts instead of one (Those were his words, but I guess he meant that the dress was too tight), and would therefore not be allowed into the dance! My sister was mortified and could think of nothing else to do but go to the restroom, find an empty stall and cry. She then went back to her dorm and skipped the dance.

Later, she called up my dad and told him what happened. He then wrote a letter to the University president who then located the moron who had insulted my sister and told him to find her and appologize, which he did.

When my sister told me this I was laughing so hard I had tears in my eyes. But then I started wondering how many fanatics in the Church think "more" is always better when it comes to the church and so they take a given doctrine, rule, commandment, whatever, and take it to the nth degree.

Examples: "Keep the sabbath day holy". The fanatic won't allow their children to play, watch tv, change out of church clothes, read anything but scriptures on Sunday.

"Keep the Word of Wisdom". No chocolate. No caffeine.

"Stay morallly clean". Anything that turns you on is bad. Nothing but the missionary position allowed.

"Attend the temple regularly". Go every week.

So in defense of the goofball that embarrassed my sister, maybe he's just carrying on a time-honored tradition within the church, that of being a fanatic.

10/01/2000 - Elsewhere
When I was a freshman at BYU, Jeff Holland, President at the time, made the statement that it was a privilege not a right to attend BYU. He said that if the freshman did not like it they could "go elsewhere". Soon after the speech students and teachers would repeat the "go elsewhere" if people were not happy about some of BYU's policies. About 8 years ago, I went elsewhere from the Church and have never been happier.

09/24/2000 - Tim
One of the most telling areas of Mormon art is church architecture. I was told in a whisper by the dean of the BYU College of Fine Arts -- in a moment of great frustration for him -- that the Provo temple and others like it seemed to be examples of `the bowling trophy school of architecture.`

08/22/2000 - James
"Under Wilkinson the faculty meetings where there previously had been a great exchange of ideas went right down the drain and in the same building I saw it happen. ("it" referring to Wilkinson, known for his "notoriuos ... open-mouth kissing with ... women ... It was kind of- it was a repulsive expression of a deviant drive that I identify as neurotic." My insert) It was most interesting because one of the first things that Wilkinson did when he came into power was chnage the old tradition of the Tuesday and Thursday assembly. He changed the devotional hour from a matter of choice to a matter of requirement ... But the joke went around the faculty that Wilkinson had written a new book called Free Agency and How to Enforce it ... he made it a matter of requirement and then he would send around, during the devotional, different people to go up and down the halls to check to see that the faculty members were not in their offices. The few delinquents who did not go would turn the lights off and sit quietly when the footsteps came down the hall, because they were not quite sure whether they were representatives or not. They were jokingly referred to in my hearing as members of the JBI, Jehovah's Bureau of Investigation.

The editor of the newspaper picked up on this and took a poll of faculty members as to whether or not they thought it was legitimate to require attendence. My position on this was completely clear. I thought it was not legitimate, meaning "reasonable." I thought that the way to get people there was to have good programms, and then they would want to come. I answered, "No," together with sixty-one other people on the faculty who responded, "No."

So here we were in the faculty meeting the next time in the Maeser Memorial Assembly Hall and the meeting was called to order by one of the men the president had brought from the East to do his bidding. This was William F. Edwards. The president was not there yet. In the silence that followed Edwards's calling the meeting to order and having the prayer, through the swinging doors came this little man. It was almost a parody of a western movie, a man coming through the swinging doors with his guns blazing. He did not have his guns blazing, but his lips were white with anger. He was absolutely furious. I remember distinctly how he started out. He said, "I have been told that sixty-two members of this faculty said that it is illegitimate for me, it is not legitimate for me, to require attendance at devotional. Now I challenge any man in his right mind to tell me why he would vote "No" on that. UP STOOD, OF ALL PEOPLE, HUGH NIBLEY. HE STARTED TO GIVE HIS EXPLANATION, AND PRESIDENT WILKINSON YELLED HIM DOWN. HE FINALLY SAID, "SIT DOWN, HUGH, YOUR'E CLEAR OFF SUBJECT" (my emphasis). Those were his exact words. So then stood up Joyce Stone, and he spoke for a few minutes. Then Brig Madsen. And then Briant Jacobs. It did not pacify the president one little bit. He was furiuos at all of us."

Poor Mr. Nibley. And that infront of all of the YBYourself Nibley faculty. Must have been traumatizing.

Whereas, even more revealing to me, which has nothing to do with Nibley mind you, are the sentences before the above, interestingly showing that Wilkinson could push around the male faculty but ran into trouble with the females:

"Also, Wilkinson was sexist. And one of his characteristics, it was widely known among the faculty, was he tendency to squeeze your hand in reception lines to the point that your knees would buckle. He did it to me once. I had shrapnel in my right hand and it nearly killed me. I wanted to go through the ceiling. From then on I never offered him my right hand. The one person who confronted him on this was Apostle Widtsoe's daughter, Eudora. She had gone through this before. What he especially liked was to see women begin to drop in front off him ... But Eudora told him that if he ever did it to her again she would kick him right in the shins, and I'm sure she meant it. He was notorious for open-mouth kissing ..." (p. 63f.)
"My Continuing Quest. Sociological Perspectives on Mormonism", by Ray R. Canning, SLC, 1996, 64f., Canning reporting on some aspects of the Wilkinson (former BYU president) era).

08/06/2000 - Linda - Regarding The Real World's BYU Julie
I watched the show, too, and I am sure that any thinking, breathing, normal person of whatever race or religion is to be appalled at the condescending, racist attitude Julie was obviously raised with as a Mormon. She actually said, "At home if someone asked me [to bring them a spoon and a bowl] we'd say, 'Excuse me!?! What COLOR do you think ~I~ am???'" That's pretty strong stuff! And it definitely puts Mormon attitudes and beliefs in a very bad light, IMHO.

All this other stuff in the BYU's Herald's letters to the editor about how Julie upheld her sexual values in front of a wicked world and how she is a missionary or a fine example seems insignifcant to me compared to what this blockbuster episode reveals about the racial attitudes she was taught as a "good Mormon girl."

Yes, to be fair, she was extrememly open and was willing to change her viewpoint when enlightened. She wept furiously at the embarassment of discovering her naivete and backwardness. She lobbied vigorously for Melissa to challenge her own cynicism about what one person can do to change racist viewpoints. Julie is an admirable young woman.

But...the strong, clear picture for me and I hope for many thousands of others who watched tonight's TRW is of the racist, bigoted, back- in-the-19th-Century, Mormon church's attitudes that still filter thoroughly and completely down to its present-day, influential, soon- to-be-raising-children-of-their-own, youngest members.

Hoping The Real World makes a few people think twice before investigating Mormonism in the future.

08/06/2000 - Carol
My across the street neighbor (in the early 90s) used to work for BYU housing cleaning the apartments/rooms when he was getting his Masters. He told me that they would find used condoms (yuk) all of the time behind the dressers and other furniture plus women's undies. He guessed they were afraid to flush the condoms for fear of clogging the toilet. He said he NEVER told just figured the guys/gals got lucky.

07/05/2000 - USA Today
BYU Requires Letter of Explanation from Julie ('Real World' pressures face Julie) USA Today 5Jul00 P2

http://www.usatoday.com/life/enter/tv/let003.htm By Kevin V. Johnson: USA Today

DELAFIELD, WISCONSIN -- BYU Student Julie Stoffer, who appears in the current season of MTV's "The Real World," is writing a letter to BYU at its request, detailing "when were boys in my bedroom, till what time, what went on." The letter will help BYU determine whether Julie can return to BYU in the Fall.

The school has been concerned with Julie's actions and the environment on the show, which has a reputation for loose morals, "Our concern is what happened in that environment," says school spokeswoman Carri Jenkins. "What were the male-female interactions, and what was the appropriateness of those interactions?" But Stoffer maintans that her actions were above board.

She also says that when she decided to appear on the show, she knew that her actions wouldn't satisfy everyone, "I've lived pretty much my whole life trying to be a good example," she told USA Today, "and when I went on MTV, it was kind of a big step for me. I knew that no matter how hard I tried to be a good example, somebody was going to disagree with me. . . . So I said, 'OK, Julie, this time you're just going to be true to you. You're going to do what you feel is right, and if these convictions are ingrained, your actions will be in line with that.'"

Her appearance on the show has drawn negative reactions from fellow BYU students as well, including hate e-mail from some. And according to USA Today, "a local youth group rescinded its approval of her as a counselor."

07/02/2000 - Catherine de Gaston
I have lots of BYU stories too. I also have stories about outrageous behavior from many other areas and cultures. People aren't perfect, and Mormons at BYU are usually young and just trying to figure life out themselves. Can we try to have a little charity for them? Catherine, a true believing Mormon who believes in looking for the good in people

05/10/2000 - Jeff J.

"Most and women, given suitable conditions, will feel passionate love at some period of their lives. For the inexperienced, however, it is very difficult to distinguish passionate love from mere sex hunger; especially is this the case with well-brought-up girls, who have been taught that they could not possibly like to kiss a man unless they loved him. If a girl is expected to be a virgin when she marries, it will very often happen that she is trapped by transient and trivial sex attraction, which a woman with sexual experience could easily distinguish from love. This has undoubtedly been a frequent cause of unhappy marriages. Even where mutual love exists, it may be poisoned by the belief of one or both that it is sinful."

Due to the fact that this is a logic-based statement, one can only expect the exact opposite theories on sex to be taught from the classroom pulpits of BYU. It is unfortunate that it wasn't until my final year at BYU in 1994 did I realize that I was perhaps being controlled by an authoritarian society. I am now embarrassed to admit that as a missionary, I asked people, during baptismal interviews, if they were masturbating or fornicating (asking these questions in Chinese somehow made it seem less intrusive--I was in denial); and while at BYU, I found myself in the Bishop's office with my crying girlfriend feeling needless guilt and sharing very private information with a stranger who called himself "Bishop" (granted, this Bishop was probably just as controlled as I--so I hold no ill feelings towards him--even though he gave me some of the worst sex advice possible).

While at BYU I found that Mormonism's irrational obsession with sex nearly crippled the unwed students of the institution--that is until both the students and administration seemed to quietly agree on an action which I once heard a Bishop in Sacrament meeting call: "simulated sex with the clothes on." People of my generation have found another term: "dry-humping."

The dry-humping phenomenon within the BYU society is an interesting one. It's one of those activities upon which both the student body and the theocratic priesthood--which governs the Standards office--have established an implicit agreement. Technically, the Lord frowns on those students of His university who achieve orgasm whilst rubbing the crotches of their khakis against one another, but for both the students and the theocracy, there is really no other alternative: If the student is asked to honestly give up this type of release altogether in the name of upholding the honor code, his libido, if he had any honor, would probably force him to withdraw from BYU; if the theocracy were to enforce punitive measures against every single infraction beyond kissing, they would be forced expel the majority of the student body. Thus, both sides have found a common ground, and through the power of repentance, there has been established a tacit understanding: Indeed, dry-humping has provided for years now, and will continue to provide throughout Christ's millennial reign of glory, the glue that binds BYU's student body with its arid theocracy. The shrewd Mormons of Provo could probably sell this epoxy at a Provo hardware store and market as: "Temple Sealing."

BYU Looks at Tightening Reports of Honor Code violations, But Finds Rumors Hard to Squelch Salt Lake Tribune 25Jul99

In the wake of recent controversy, Brigham Young University, an LDS Church-owned school, will reconsider the way school officials confirm to members of the media Honor Code investigations. BYU would like to avoid helping to make public what it believes to be private. The Honor Code, prohibits drinking alcohol, pre-marital sex and other violations.

Last year the school dispelled a rumor that athlete Brian Gray was under investigation by simply saying he was not. Junior Mahe, a l9-year-old running back, was "under review" and later withdrew from school amid the controversy. When others saw Carri Jenkins' name in the news as the church's spokeswoman who confirmed the investigation to reporters, Jenkins found herself the target of criticism.

She received dozen of phone calls and e-mails criticizing her part in releasing a student's name and subjecting him to negative attention, prior to action being taken. "If it means having a kid on the front page when a decision hasn't been made, and (not saying anything) could prevent that story, then by all means we want to look closely at this," she said. But "if the story is going to get there anyway, maybe we should say something."

The Daily Herald in Provo has run a lead article on the front page covering this controversy. The Deseret News in Salt Lake City ran a story and The Tribune covered it in the sports section. Computer bulletin boards, dedicated to BYU sports, have played host to a lot of criticism. Next month meetings will be held with BYU President Merrill J. Bateman, vice presidents Fred Skousen and Alton Wade along with athletic director Val Hale to discuss the problem.

Steve Baker, who directs the Honor Code Office, said, "I can kind of see it from both perspectives." "On one hand, if you say absolutely nothing, sometimes rumors can be perpetuated and maybe even printed. That makes me a little leery. On the other hand, if the university says anything, then the people involved, it makes them feel uncomfortable."

President Bateman seems to favor keeping quiet until action has been taken. "What really hurts," he said, "is when an athlete makes a mistake and it gets plastered all over the front page. Our belief is that the student should have the right to work out his problems with a little privacy."

"It gives so little time to resolve (Honor Code investigations) in a particular way," Bateman said, "and that puts the university in a position of having to deal with it one way or another right away."

05/15/1999 - anon
While at BYU, I became involved in a relationship with a very good friend of mine who wasn't a student. Her roommate caught us at her apartment having sex, and turned me into the BYU standards department. Oh, did I mention one small fact...we were both female?!

The next thing I knew, I was being called in for a conference by my Student Ward Bishop. I was panic stricken and just knew I was going to be kicked out of BYU and then somehow I would have to tell my non-member parents back in Oklahoma that I was kicked out of school because I was a homo. Double Jeopardy!

Well as it happened, the Bishop got me into his office and asked me all these questions (not too personal, he was very proper about it) about "this problem" I had, and then stated that it was "mutual masturbation" and that it happens more often than I knew at BYU to women just like myself and that it was not really a problem as long as I repented and didn't do it anymore. Of course I lied and told him that I wasn't doing it anymore.

Most of the time I could hardly wait to get home from my conferences with the Bishop so my friend and I could have "mutual Masturbation" but, I still had to meet with him weekly until the end of the school year. Each time I fully expected him to use his spiritual discernment that we've all been told that bishops have, and say to me that I was a big fat liar and to stop lying to him. That, of course, never happened.

I went back home for Spring/Summer break, and during that time, I got a letter from him stating that I was "cured" if I read "the Miracle of Forgiveness" by Spencer W. Kimball. Well, I at least bought the book. The next fall, my friend and I moved in together and continued our "mutual masturbation" full time until I graduated from BYU in 1982, and for a number of years long distance afterwards.

Of course we weren't lesbians! We were just girls who knew how to have fun! Thanks to the positive feedback I received at BYU, I have sought after women from that time forward and have been happily queer ever since!

05/05/1999 - anon
During my freshman year at BYU a good friend who I lived in the dorm with got his girlfriend (the RS pres in the student ward) pregnant. Prior to knowing she was pregnant the couple confessed their sin to the bishop. All was forgiven, the slap on the hand and off they went. When she discovered she was pregnant my friend (understandably) freaked out. He confided in two friends (also in the student ward) as he deliberated about his options. The bishop,(taught in the English department) went into panic mode. He held court on my friend and drilled him about who he'd told about this incident. Court was tabled to give the good bishop time to debrief with the people who knew what happened. He wanted to know what we knew, what we were going to do with that information and what we would do if the student were allowed to stay at the Y. It was such an ugly damage control scenario. Once bishop *** was sure we weren't going to cause any trouble he put the guy on probation and life went on. Funny when the fornication was confessed no action was taken, but when a pregnancy was involved action was taken. Shouldn't the HG have told Bishop *** that she was pregnant when they confessed? Maybe in future interviews he should force the girl to take a EPT before he decides what to do.

04/20/199 - Galadriel
The non-admission policy of BYU for exmormons. Can you imagine Notre Dame turning down someone's admission strictly because they used to be catholic and now were atheist? Would Notre Dame even have access to the sorts of detailed records that could trace if you once were catholic and left? Or even care if they did?

04/19/1999 - anon
The fact that BYU does NOT admit "ex"mormons is one instance of the true colors of mormonism shining through. Supposedly mormons can accept other people's religious beliefs and be tolerant. Not so. If you are an "ex"mormon you are too ???wicked??? to attend BYU. Suppose I am a believing Presbyterian (a "christian", just like the mormons). I cannot go to BYU if I was once a mormon.You are tolerated, even admitted to BYU, if you have never been a mormon. (Potential convert). But if you were once a mormon and changed your mind BYU will not allow you admission

04/12/1999 - anon
My best friend, a true believing Mormon, from a long line of the same, was at BYU on a football scholarship. He was "counseled" by LaVelle to not go on a mish. and the rationale was that as a football player he was serving the lord by the great missionary work done by the football program (I did once have a testimony of the truthfulness of the BYU cougars). Strangely enough those who would be hurt by being gone for two years (talent positions such as quarterbacks and receivers) were counseled to stay while those who would be helped by being older (linemen) were encouraged to go and serve.

04/11/1999 anon
Some bishops put people through hell for the heinous crime of masturbation, but I had one at a BYU singles ward who got up in sacrament meeting and said he didn't want to hear any more confessions of that nature. (You should have seen the look of relief go over the congregation!)

04/10/1999 anon
I think the funniest story I ever heard about wet dreams came from a friend of mine who recently retired as a BYU faculty member. He was divorced about 17 years ago, and never remarried. He went through many periods of depression, and finally confessed to his stake president that he masturbated a lot, and that he was depressed because he could not control his urges. The wise stake president simply said, "John, think of it as a wet dream while you are awake and just enjoy it!"

04/01/2000 - Shon
What alot of people dont realise is that about 2 or 3 years ago BYU almost lost their Accrediation to Teach Computer Science Classes because they were so behind the technology their Professors are very behind on what is "New Computer Technology" But I think BYU needs to get their Prioritys Straight, Buying 3 New Silicon Graphics inc. Super Computers at the little bill of $900,000. it is just shafting the students, Example
My best Freind got his CS Degree from BYU
And I got mine from USC in Los Angeles

My freind graduated 2 years ago, and he is still looking for someone to offer him more than 45,000 a year. he is working for a Computer Company's Technical Support

I graduated from USC in May, and within 3 weeks I started working for Microsoft in Southern California.

02/11/2000 - Alan
I just found this new website BYU Sucks. It's just new and getting started but it's pretty funny.

02/10/2000 - SwedenDC
It's a pretty lame site, although the pictures on the front are cute, but typical BYU.Non Committal Make Out

I think this whole thing is hilarious! This is the Mo version of "casual sex". Meeting for pleasure alone, only you just kiss, no actual intercourse. It is also very heterosexual. They are very gender specific, and the idea of two men or two women meeting is not even addressed.

The funny thing is that twenty years from now, some of these NCMO fans will be bishops and RS presidents, counseling their charges on the evils of casual intimacy.

Well, at least these zoobies are trying to have some fun!

01/29/2000 - Eugene England (quoted in Salt Lake Tribune 01/29/2000 page c3)
He taught at the University of Utah's LDS Institute of Religion for two years until 1977 when Elder Jeffrey R. Holland, now an apostle, helped him find a position at LDS Church-owned BYU.

"Teaching in any way critical of Mormon culture was read as a criticism of the Mormon religion, even though there's a sharp distinction between the two that the prophets have always drawn," England said.

It became clear that the administration and much of the faculty would accept only a "positive, orthodox" approach to Mormon literature and culture, and anyone who introduced any other ideas was seen as suspect, even evil. Students and faculty became theological vigilantes, running to the administration with any hint of a difference.

"I could tell other faculty began to see me as an evil rather than liberating influence," England said. The environment became so intolerable that he retired in 1998, falling into a sort of depression at the rejection of his life's work. The offer to introduce his approach to Mormon literature at UVSC was like a lifeline, rejuvenating him. He is once again engaging students in a serious exploration of faith and culture

12/20/1999 - Randy J
According to Amazon.com, "No Man Knows my History" is the number 5 best seller at the U of U!! Seems that something is going on at the "Y" as well, their number 6 is a book on the development of critical thinking skills. The apostasy is coming.

12/20/1999 - James
another gag is also the fact that place No. 7 at BYU is held by the book "The Act of Marriage : The Beauty of Sexual Love." If you read the amazon comments you get a good idea about it: Sex the Christian way.

Added to that place No. 9 "Saving Your Marriage Before It Starts : Seven Questions to Ask Before (And After You Marry)" Fits well. Would one expect such "bestsellers" with "normal" students across the world. What have the folks got on their minds?

I think BTW that the above No 6. is quite a mind-boggler for some BYU students: "Asking the Right Questions : A Guide to Critical Thinking."

12/16/1999 - Cyber Bear from Exmo BBS
When I was at BYU in the late 80's, my fiance and I were required (by our bishop) to take a sex-education course BEFORE he would sign our temple recommends.

This course was designed to teach young, inexperienced, clueless couples how to do it, basically. (We had already DONE it-- guess we could have taught the class.)

Anyway, it was truly amusing. The other couples in there looked like they were taking it so seriously. Some were even taking notes! (I'm not kidding.) I was very surprised at the graphic nature of the course-- actual illustrations and everything-- and the instructor even mentioned the "clitoris"! He cautioned the young men not to proceed with "coitus" on the honeymoon night until that "clitoris" had been stroked for at least 15 minutes. I was laughing so hard, trying to subdue it by covering my mouth, pretending I was coughing.

12/10/1999 - Sweden
At one point, we proposed making religion classes pass/fail, since many students complained that they were being graded on their testimonies, rather than their scholarship. We interviewed students and religion faculty. The Religion dean got wind of this, told the GAs, who told us that we were not allowed to discuss this. Some faculty were disciplined, including Ed Pinegar, former MTC Pres., who was suspended for helping us. We were told that if we brought this up again, we would be kicked off the SAC.

In the upcoming elections, the Religion Dean was made head of the nominations committee. They could select any number of candidates for Pres. Five students applied, including the SAC Pres (who was a BYUSA VP). Four selected, all except for the SAC Pres. He was told that they only wanted four candidates, even though they had had six the year before. He was the only one not selected over those two years. We started a write in campaign for him, and garnered over 500 votes, which were officially listed as disqualified votes.

I began disgusted and submitted a proposal that since BYUSA claimed not to be a student government (although they governed student activity. Really, they just weren't a representative government), we should change the name to BYU Student Service Representatives. I said that the new name was more reflective of its purpose. It actually gained some support during the debate until someone caught on and realized that the intials were BYUSSR. I got a good laugh out of that one, but was chastised by the Dean of Student Life for mocking BYUSA.

I really could not believe that I was a good, conservative Republican and yet BYU made me feel like such a subversive. I could not understand why they were so afraid of student democracy, and why they had to be so paternalistic and heavy handed. Especially when I was on the Student Senate at George Washing U. and saw how much power and freedom and how representative student government was. Many more students participated, and yet we didn't do anything radical or earthshattering. It was just nice to have a real venue for student concerns.

I believe that both my missionary and BYUSA experiences are pretty reflective of the Mormon mentality. You listen, obey and cooperate. You are appointed to positions by higher ups, not elected by the masses. You are there to implement, not innovate. It's correlation, not individualism that they want

12/06/1999 - Caperton
"Nearly 72 percent of the BYU faculty received at least one degree from the institution, an uncommon homogeneity among academic institutions. "There is no other university we surveyed that had anywhere close to that percentage of faculty represented by the sponsoring institution," Lyon said. "There is really no other major research university that provides a case for comparison." "

I had a buddy get his PhD from Penn State and I asked if he was going to stay there and teach. He said that major universities like their PhDs to "go forth" into the world and prosper -- that this was also good PR for the school; exposure through infiltration of other programs. BYU sounds like a giant in-bred family. And we know where that leads ... "squeal like a pig." 12/03/1999 caperton

12/05/1999 - BYU Biology Professor, Sam Rushforth
"The new survey report seems to indicate that most BYU faculty members agree that academic freedom at BYU is limited: What is surprising is that the large majority...are comfortable with the limitations." (quoted in the Salt Lake Tribune 12/05/1999 page C1)

11/22/1999 - Gordon
I was dismayed by the use of academic class time for teaching lds doctrine. I graduated in 1990 and the profs were under extreme pressure to incorporate the "gospel" into all subjects. My InfoMgmnt320 teacher (Dr. Stoddard) spent near an hour going over physical evidences for the Book of Mormon and made no attempt to even link to the course topic - advanced writing. This was the worst example I remember but hardly the only one. Fortunately I graduated before I vomited as the atmosphere (thank you Boyd KKK) continued to deteriorate (i.e. numerous academic freedom issues in the 1990's).

I saw the trend towards increased "gospel" discussion in class increase dramatically from my first term in 1986 to my graduation in 1990. I had several instructors confide that there was increased pressure on them to involve the gospel somehow in their classes if they wanted to get continuing status. This pressure may not have been present in all departments as I suspect the attitude of each Dean would make a difference.

Perhaps I was just sensitized to this kind of issue more after the debates in 88 and 89 surrounding Continuing Ecclesiastical Endorsement and after the Boydster made his comments about pre-Adamites not being a topic for debate. The climate seemed a lot more chilly than the one I remember in 1986 and 87. I still am wondering if Boyd was upset at all the negative publicity from the "riot"

11/22/1999 - Jason
I was a computer science major who was subjected to singing hymns before many an advanced calculus class...
This is typical of a few such strange things I encountered during my BYU experience.

11/18/1999 - Barbara
I was an art major at BYU in the 60's, and I will never forget the edict that came from the first pres. that ALL lds artists should ONLY produce works of art that glorified the church and promoted it to the world. I was young and eager to be a faithful member then, but when I heard that, I thought it was wrong, wrong, wrong. I feel sorry for those saps who are doing that now--even if they are getting rich doing it. To have boundaries imposed on one's creative expression has to suck!

10/26/1999 - anon
When I was on the BYU faculty, I was concerned with giving my students the best education possible and NEVER tried to make my teachings agree with official church teachings. I was in biochemistry and molecular biology and cancer research. I did not have to try to avoid conflicts, because I just taught what I would have at any university. I even brought in issues of evolution strongly in my genetics classes, because I was teaching science, not seminary.

10/08/1999 - Brigham