LDS Attendance - How Many Mormons Show Up

Help out the ward clerk and the Strengthening the Members Committee answer these questions by submitting information in the box below.

Despite all the noise being made by various Christian evangelicals and political organizations, more people are increasingly disengaging from religion. Some have abandoned religion all together, others have just given up on organized religion and belong to no church.

It's true that the CoJCoLDS (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) is one of the faster growing DENOMINATIONS, but monolithic, centralized denominations are becoming increasingly irrelevant. The big movement in US religion is toward independent, nondenominational churches--local churches--or churches that are part of very loose affiliations but are otherwise autonomous. So it's like Mormons bragging they have the fastestest growing bus line while most people drive their own vehicle.

There are some reports that say the CoJCoLDS is the fifth or fourth largest denomination in the US.--of those that have a single, central governing entity. For example, Methodists, Presbyterians, and Lutherans are each divided into different groups, sort of like LDS, RLDS and FLDS. But the CoJCoLDS is a very distant 4th or 5th, with there being about 70 million Catholics and 40 million Southern Baptists in the US, compared the (at best) 5 million Mormons.

The reality is that Mormonism is still pretty much a Utah religion. Mormons as a percentage of population drops off rapidly once outside the MoZone, becoming essentially invisible east of the Rockies. Overall, Mormons are less than 2% of US population. That means 98% of Americans AREN'T LDS, and 98% is damn close to 100%.

"The Church makes no statistical comparisons with other churches and makes no claim to be the fastest-growing Christian denomination despite frequent news media comments to that effect. Such comparisons rarely take account of a multiplicity of complex factors, including activity rates and death rates, the methodology used in registering or counting members and what factors constitute membership. Growth rates also vary significantly across the world."

1. "Lost sheep" are counted as members until age 110. In the USA, they sometimes can keep track of inactives and know when they die. But in most countries, inactive people are totally lost for years and decades. Thus as time goes by and the inactive rates ratchet up, a higher percentage of the bogus "total members" number are people who are either dead or have had nothing to do with the church for many years or decades.

2. Years ago, they saw a disappointing growth rate, and decided to add "children of record" to the members number instead of waiting until baptism at age 8. This trick temporarily gave a boost to the bogus growth rate, and now a sizeable number of "members" are little kids.

3. If you analyze annual stats published, the numbers don't add up for many years of the past 20 years. This gives us 100% certainty that some of the published numbers of the past are totally bogus.

4. LDS death rates published are way below expected rates. Are the faithful saints just not dying, and living longer? NO, this just means their info is so pathetic, you can't trust any number published.

5. Many people suspect that they are not properly removing "name removals" from the published total members. If the name removal phenomenom "rolls forth like a rock" then in some future year, membership might actually decline, but they will almost certainly "cook the books" to show church growth when the decline and fall of the LDS empire is in full swing.

6. In some countries, inactives probably outnumber actives 10 to 1 or even more. As more and more countries encounter this situation, the "total members" number becomes more and more meaningless - and really becomes a big joke to those "in the know".

7. The "quickie baptism" method is still widely used around the world. This results in new converts attending only a few times and often going totally inactive within a few weeks or months. They could change this by simply requiring investigators to attend meetings at least 10 Sundays and grilling them before baptism to make sure they understand the commitment to fork over 10% of future earnings to LDS INC. They'll never do that because that would result in a dramatic drop in baptisms around the world, and the missionary program is all about: a. indoctrinate the missionary into lifetime dedication, and b. produce phony stats so the missionaries have some sense of accomplishment in places where conversions are nearly impossible.

8. The rate of baptism per missionary is way down from past years. If you could somehow throw out the bogus "quickie baptism converts" who are totally inactive leas than 3 months after baptism, then the number of conversions around the world is totally pathetic. With widespread internet availability of the future, tomorrow's convert will either be third world destitute, or mentally unstable (if living in a civilized place). Another source of converts is what I call "social convert". This would be the converts from part-member families - for example, an LDS wife gives mind-blowing sex to her husband, and he gives in to pressure and joins the church, just to keep the wife happy and since they already have kids and are committed as a family any way. But the dude probably doesn't buy into all the religious BS at meetings like the brainwashed fools who have been members for life.

12,560,869 members / 20,084 congregations = 625 members per congregation. This is grossly inflated above weekly attendance.

It is also interesting that they are mainstreaming by referring to them as congregations rather than wards and branches.

If Gordo can pull the "I don't know that we teach that" trick on doctrine, I guess the newsroom can pull it on Gordo's teachings.

"It is a fact that we lose some—far too many. Every organization of which I am aware does so. But I am satisfied that we retain and keep active a higher percentage of our members than does any other major church of which I know."

GBH's statement: "But I am satisfied that we retain and keep active a higher percentage of our members than does any other major church of which I know."

If any college freshman with half a brain did a research project and researched actual data, they would find that the activity rate of new LDS converts is pathetically low, and the LDS activity rate in general is very low.

With a claim of membership in excess of 12 and a half million, you'd expect to see higher enrollment in seminary and institute than 360K each.

why would the number of seminary students and institute students be almost exactly the same?

Think about it: to enroll in institute you have to walk your butt over to the institute building and actually enroll yourself. How many marginally active college kids would do that? Hell, even as a totally active RM I didn't always take institute classes because I was so busy taking REAL classes and working!

The kids that are in seminary, on the other hand, have not all signed up voluntarily. 4 years from now how many of those kids will even be in college (not everybody goes) and how many of those will actually take the initiative to sign-up for institute?

I would expect that the seminary number would be WAY bigger than the institute number. It looks to me like they don't have as many teens right now as they did just a few years ago. That could partly be due to birth rates but it certainly isn't something you'd expect to see in a thriving and growing church and it isn't a good sign for the future of the church.

Not college students. Institute classes are usually organized and held near colleges, but the classes are advertized in ward bullitens and regular members, esp. women who realize they know nothing about the gospel, in spite of years of ss and rs, clamor to attend. Many stakes and wards it is the "in" thing to do.

I taught it before. Out of all the students in the class maybe 5% were full time college students, if that.

In 2003, Hinckley claims 400 chapels/yr, but the number could be lower in 2007 because they have overbuilt in some areas. If you go down near the bottom, you'll see the 2003 claim.

In 1991, GBH claimed 520 chapels/yr and also made the misleading statistical remark about new converts being "sufficient to constitute 110 new stakes of Zion". Of course, this is total BS since so many people are inactive.

In 2003, GBH doesn't mention new stakes since modern activity rates are so low that stakes have only increased from 2,581 to 2,701 in the past 5 years (through end of 2005).

You don't have to read many of Hinckley's conference reports to realize that he's full of baloney and has been reporting false information for decades. As has been documented by Steve Benson, Hinckley issued many false reports about the health of Prez Benson when he was seriously ill.

On a previous occasion, in October of 1985 in our general priesthood meeting, I endeavored to give a report on the state of the Church, posing a series of questions and then endeavoring to answer them. I did a similar thing in a regional conference not long ago, and I thought I might do something of the same thing this evening.

I am grateful that the report I have to make is encouraging and uplifting. I have endeavored to see that it is reliable in every respect, because I know that I have a very serious responsibility of accountability to you, my brethren of the priesthood, as well as to the Lord whose church this is. And so, again, I intend to pose a few questions and then endeavor to answer them as truthfully and frankly as I know how.

My first question is one that we get all over the Church, wherever we go. That question is “How is President Benson?” I am pleased to report that President Benson is reasonably well for his age. He is now ninety-one. He has lived a life of vigorous activity, filled with heavy responsibility and its attendant stress. The years have taken some toll. He arises and dresses each day, and on some days attends our meetings. It is a delight to have him with us. He was with us this morning, and I am sure the entire Church who saw him appreciated that. He is the prophet of the Lord, put in that place under the divine will of our Father in Heaven for the accomplishment of His eternal purposes. There are serious limitations on what he can do, as might well be expected. But I assure you, my brethren, that nothing of substantial consequence is done without his knowledge and concurrence. I am his counselor, as is President Monson. We have a responsibility to see that the work moves forward. I think we understand the parameters of our callings, and we endeavor to remain within these. With you, we sing with sincerity, “We ever pray for thee, our prophet dear.”

Question 2: “How is the Church doing?” The Church is doing very well. We are far from that state of perfection for which we work, but we are trying—and we are making substantial progress. We are growing consistently and remarkably. I note that the 1991 World Book Yearbook shows there are now only six other religious bodies in the United States larger than The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

More importantly, there is growing faith and faithfulness among the Latter-day Saints. I am encouraged by what I see. Things are getting consistently better. We have wards and stakes where sacrament meeting attendance runs in the 60-, 70-, and even 80-percent range. I think there is nothing like it in any other organization of substantial size of which I know. I have served as a stake or general officer of this church for more than half a century, and I am confident that never, during all of that time, has a larger percentage of our people been actively engaged in Church responsibility. I submit that this is one of the great success stories of all time. The credit does not belong to us. It is the Lord’s success, for this is His work, and we rejoice with Him in that which has been accomplished.

Question 3: “What is happening with reference to missionary work?” The work continues to expand. It has become a truly tremendous undertaking in fulfillment of the commandment of the Lord, a commandment we are faithfully trying to observe. As of the end of the year, as you heard Brother Watson report this morning, there were 43,651 full-time missionaries under call throughout the world. We now have 256 missions worldwide, of which 28 were created in 1990. It is contemplated that 12 more will be created in 1991. We find it necessary to add substantially to the facilities at the Missionary Training Center in Provo, Utah.

Question 4: “Are we able to construct buildings enough to accommodate the growth of the Church?” Approximately 330,000 converts came into the Church during 1990. This number is sufficient to constitute 110 new stakes of Zion, each with a membership of 3,000. There were more converts in 1990 alone than all of the members of the Church presently residing in the state of Arizona or in the state of Idaho. As you might well expect, we are faced with a constant and pressing need for new facilities.

Five hundred and twenty new chapels were dedicated in 1990. It is interesting to note that 330 of the 520 were constructed in countries outside of the United States and Canada. All of this, I submit, bears witness of the remarkable and wonderful expansion of the Church in many nations of the earth. To me it is a constantly unfolding miracle that we have been able to construct new facilities to accommodate this growth.

But with all the troubles with which we are confronted, I am pleased to report that the work of the Church moves forward. We continue to grow across the world. Our missionary work goes on without serious impediment. Converts continue to come into the Church, and our numbers are constantly being increased. Paralleling this activity is the need to solidly integrate all of those who are baptized as converts. We call upon every member of the Church to reach out to new converts, to put your arms around them and make them feel at home. Bless them with your friendship. Encourage them with your faith. See that there are no losses among them. Every man, woman, or child worthy of baptism is worthy of a secure and friendly situation in which to grow in the Church and its many activities.

Our sacrament meeting attendance gradually edges up. There is room for improvement, and I urge you to work at it constantly. Even so, I do not know of another church with as high a percentage of consistent attendance at its meetings.

I am pleased to report that we are able to go forward with the building of chapels. We are constructing about 400 new chapels a year to accommodate the growth in the membership of the Church. This is a significant and wonderful thing for which we are deeply grateful. We are also continuing to build temples across the earth and are pleased to report an increase in temple activity. This very important work, in behalf of the living and the dead, is a fundamental part of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Since LDS INC stopped reporting the number of baptisms for the dead and endowment sessions many years ago, Hicnkley has the freedom to make any crazy claim, and the real statistical numbers remain secret and confidential.

I'll bet the rate of temple activity sucks. Despite new McTemples all over the world, most active members cringe at the thought of going to the temple very often. Young people - middle school up through college - are mostly apathetic about the whole temple thing.

Hinckley is really full of it and I'll bet he'll have more big time BS from the pulpit at the next conference in a week or so.

Eventually, in 5 or 10 or 20 years, some future "prophet" might have to come clean and admit that published numbers are totally bogus, and a "reality check" is in order. Even then, they will sugar coat the bad news.

Stats for Britain - considering there are 6 million people in London alone - Brigantia

These figures really bring the church into perspective here. A local Member of Parliament could win or lose by as many votes.

At Stake Conference last week they brought in an IN-N-OUT truck along with a Golden Spoon truck and offered free burgers and frozen yogurt to everybody that came to the adult session on Saturday.

They even started the meeting and people were still eating their yogurt during the talks. Of course there were more people at the adult meeting than ever before. Whatever it takes to increase attendance.

Last night our ward clerk stopped by and told me and my wife that attendance in sacrament meeting yesterday was the lowest on record for our ward. I also noticed this when there was no need to open the overflow –it’s always opened right after they finish passing the sacrament. My ward is located in a fairly affluent part of Sandy, well on the east bench. It’s an area that I always thought was strong Mormon.

While I’m a newer member of our ward (6 yrs compared to 20+ for some), I have noticed numbers tapering off bit by bit each year. For the first 2 years I lived here I was EQP and was hounded by everyone to get home teaching under control, get more people to church, reactivate the world and focus on perspective elders in the ward. All they seemed to care about wwas numbers -just like the mission. I never really did any of that. In fact, because I was new in the ward I really didn’t feel like it was my responsibility to reactivate a bunch of old people I didn’t know. Now that I’m out of the calling I can see why they were so overly concerned with getting people back to church.

Anyone else seeing this trend? Tell me where you live –not specific just general area. I have heard that numbers are dwindling more and more each year. I’d suspect that on the west side of the valley things are solid due to all the young families with kids. Where I live it’s nothing but empty nesters and retired folks, with a few younger families like myself here and there.

On my last trip to Utard to visit my parents, I decided to pop over to the Barnes & Nobel in Sandy while my parents and wife put their time in for the cult. Let me tell you -- I was amazed by the number of suits-and-white-shirts roaming the shelves. They weren't "shopping" in the regular sense either. I notice they were taking up all available seating in the place as they read books/mags/etc instead of church attendance. One guy I passed had his duty to god pin on his lapel and I pointed and asked: "Duty to God?" -- the guy basically went red as a beet (hey, I was in "Beet-digger territory) -- I believe I had stired up a bit of righteous guilt in the guy (I think I could make a good GA -- I enjoy inspiring guilt). I imagine a good chunk of priesthood authority was wasted on magazines that Sunday morning.

And that was during the 1990s, still "high-growth" years for LDS Inc. I'd love to know what the 2001-2011 comparison will reveal.

LDS Inc reports its present Manitoba membership at 4,200 and change. The 2001 census had a self-reported figure of 1,700. That'd be a 40% activity rate (at best). Sounds about right.

Also, Grand Forks, ND, which had 2 wards back in the 1970s, now only has 1. Bismarck, where there is a mctemple, has only one ward. Only 2 cities in the whole state have 2 wards - Fargo and Minot.

I think LDS Inc is in slight shrinkage mode (or negative growth, if you prefer) over all, and has been for a few years now. LDS Inc can hide that for quite a while, by simply keeping wards open even when they fall below minimum staffing levels, rather than closing/combining wards. But they can only play that game for so long....

My wife’s SP recently announced the creation of a new young adult ward in the stake. With tears flowing from his eyes he explained that the church is losing its youth in record numbers and that his stake is not immune. He went on to announce that the Lord has inspired him to create this young adult ward so that the young people can be saved. He explained that membership records of every youth 18-30 living within the stake boundaries would be moved to this new ward. He called upon the remaining faithful youth to call upon their wayward friends and reactivate them back into the church.

I found this candid admission very interesting. “The church is losing its youth in record numbers” Hmmm maybe the internet is winning the war as more and more youth are discovering that Moronism, I mean Mormonism, has become more and more meaningless in the lives of today's young adults.

The Internet is KILLING the Cult of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Spin! by My Kids Too

My kids do everything off the Internet, my boy recently bought a car on the east coast and sold his old one on the west coast! Music, clothes, homework, friends - it's all in the cyberworld now. And so is philosophy and religion!

When I was in the mission field we had almost complete control of the info our investigators received - maybe they looked at the encyclopedia or asked questions at work, but we were in control and they trusted us. But TODAY, who would want to try and teach Cyberkids? In seconds they can be on an "Anti-Conversion" site and print out pages of questions for their missionaries to answer!

Suddenly the missionaries know LESS about their OWN CHURCH than some random strangers!

When DH told our son that we no longer believed (Thanks to the info found on this board after a google search), he told me he had been reading stuff online for 2 years.

Right before I found out the truth, I was visiting another ward and I was commenting on the small numbers of young people. An older lady from the stake relief society said that our area (deep south) is losing young people in droves.

"But actually, he thought as he re-adjusted the Ministry of Plenty's figures, it was not even forgery. It was merely the substitution of one piece of nonsense for another. Most of the material that you were dealing with had no connexion with anything in the real world, not even the kind of connexion that is contained in a direct lie.

Statistics were just as much a fantasy in their original version as in their rectified version. A great deal of the time you were expected to make them up out of your head. For example, the Ministry of Plenty's forecast had estimated the output of boots for the quarter at one-hundred-and-forty-five million pairs. The actual output was given as sixty-two millions. Winston, however, in rewriting the forecast, marked the figure down to fifty-seven millions, so as to allow for the usual claim that the quota had been overfulfilled.

In any case, sixty-two millions was no nearer the truth than fifty-seven millions, or than one-hundred-and-forty-five millions. Very likely no boots had been produced at all. Likelier still, nobody knew how many had been produced, much less cared. All one knew was that every quarter astronomical numbers of boots were produced on paper, while perhaps half the population of Oceania went barefoot.

And so it was with every class of recorded fact, great or small. Everything faded away into a shadow-world in which, finally, even the date of the year had become uncertain."

For the October 2006 Ensign, the Church published this graphic depicting Church growth:

1. All of the values are actually sitting on top of an additional 15 pixel-high shadow. This adds about 2/3 of a million members to each column.

2. Now I said "about 2/3 of a million" because it turns out the interpixel distance between lines varies. I got out a graphics program, blew up the image and got the y-value in pixels of each line counting down from the top. (Where they appear as doubled lines in the graphic, I chose the brighter row of pixels.)

The average (not including the shadow height) is 22.3. The interlinear difference between the 11 and 12 million lines is 16.4% greater than the average. That means that the height in that section of the graph was stretched by about 1/6 to hide the falling off in the last few years in Church growth.

The changes are subtle but clearly demonstrate manipulation for the purpose of quelling member questions.

The percentage growth figure for 2006 is much lower than in recent decades, is below the growth figures for the depression and World War II and is only higher than the figure for the Mormon reformation of the 1850's.

It's amazing what you can hide in a plot of "exponential" growth, especially when you cheat. Good catch.

It was probably over 25 years old when they decided to just eliminate it and go back to just one "Tacoma Stake" in the entire Tacoma, WA area, which is kinda bizzare, since the population of the area has vastly increased in the past 25 years, while the "Tacoma Stake" withered on the vine, shriveled up and was in danger of dying. The "South Tacoma Stake" had been stagnant for decades, but at least it wasn't dying, so they "consolidated" the two stakes, which amounted to disolving one stake and going back to just one.

Things had been so stagnant in Tacoma for so long that the members I know who are used to seeing the glass as half full, saw this as an exciting change. The delusion is deep, but as long as they believe the PRopoganda coming out of the COB, they will remain in denial and see themselves as fullfilling the prophecies of Isaiah and taking over the world and paving the way for Christ's immanent 2nd coming. (never mind the fact that we can't get missionaries into the entire middle east, or that they've never set foot in the most populous country in the world, which is a prerequisit for Christ's return according to LDS theology.)

Of myself and my eight siblings, all B.I.C. and raised by devout parents, five of us are entirely out, one disbelieves but attends due to his marriage situation, and three are T.B.M., one of which gets financial assistance from the church.

Six of my nine girlfriends of the last fifteen years are out. Five of the six exmo's were faithful members at the time we dated (in the beginning anyway, grin). One of them recently left, along with her husband. They have three kids, all B.I.C., who will now grow up in a post Mormon household.

Another of the aforementioned girlfriends has five siblings. Four of them have left the church, leaving only one T.B.M. sib. More significantly perhaps, both her mother and her scientist father, are now out.

I am a Utah native. I live in the corridor. My core circle of friends is now comprised of all ex-Mormons. Many of my long time friends who were once faithful defenders of the faith are now out. These people I'm mentioning did not leave due to sin or the desire thereof. They had strong testimonies and deep conviction, but at some point, the bullshit just finally burst the bubble. These aren't marginal members leaving. These are intelligent, professional, core members leaving. The intriguing thing to me is the suddenness and depth of their apostasies. It is as if a switch is thrown, and once they see outside the box, there simply is no going back in. Certainly it is an accelerating trend. I believe we have probably crossed that point when Mormons who have left the church are influencing more people away from Mormonism than faithful Mormons are attracting converts. That of course is mere speculation.

On another note: I'm not plugged into the popular culture much, but even from the sidelines it seems like Mormonism is popping up a lot in the main line media feeds these days, between off the cuff jabs at Mormon culture in movie scripts, to Mormon characters in movies and plays, and it seems like the tone tends to be on the mocking side.

I'm sure some of you saw it, and there was probably even a thread about it on this board, but Andrew Sullivan blogged about the Mormon garment on Slate, and even posted a photograph of models wearing them in all their glory. He later removed the photo, but retained a link to another blog which kept the photo up. The Mormons of course, took offense.

I just take a lot of joy in finding myself able to have expanded conversations with these people about much broader topics, and with the former boundaries thrown down. It is wonderful, marvelous.

Brazil is a cluster as well. I left my mission in 2002 and the baptism rate was down to 20-30 baptisms per month. I can say that in my mission, Sao Paulo East, Mormonism has reached a saturation point.

It got so bad that we had to start being "creative" with our numbers. They wanted numbers, numbers, and more numbers, so we gave them the numbers they wanted. We would teach a principle of a discussion in a contact and count it as a discussion. We got guilt trips that people weren't getting baptized due to disobedience to dumb rules and playing with little factories.

There's no net membership growth in the urban areas anymore. You have to go to the backwaters of Brazil to get any significant baptisms and even then you have little or no net growth.

TSCC (The So Called Church) claims 800,000 members, yet only 200,000 self identify themselves as Mormons.

I had one area with 1200 people on the ward list and 30-40 people in church on Sundays. There was 5 exmo bishops, lol.

This summer Lynn A. Mickelsen visited my parents ward. He was visiting a friend of his and came to church not in an official visit but as a visitor. He of course sat on the stand and volunteered to do a G&A session during Sunday school.

Lynn A Micklesen says Church not growing.

Elder Mickelsen was one of the most laid back General Authorities I have ever met in the church. He was a very likable guy. He was also halfway honest and said things I have never ever heard a top church leader say.

Elder Mickelsen said the main job of a Seventy is to regulate the church. He went into some examples of how the church in different areas gets off track and how keeping it in line is a constant struggle. He said one ward in California had the Aronic Priesthood wear special uniforms to pass the sacrement. How another ward signaled the sacrement was done by playing a little ditty on the organ.

He said the people and leaders in the church are well meaning but some get carried away. He gave the example of stake patriarchs going to far in the blessings like telling the recipient they will be General Authoritys in the future. He said we all can get too carried away trying to do a good thing to where we are no longer in harmony with the lord.

He also told the story of how some of his collegues in Salt Lake looked real depressed one day. It turns out they just came from a meeting where Gordon B. Hinckley chewed everyone out for the church's low growth numbers. He said right now the church loses almost as many members as it brings in. He said the biggest growth factor was having babies in the church.

He also said the second comming wasn't going to be anytime soon. There's too much work to be done.

Most of the sheep in Sunday School said they really felt the spirit and blah blah blah. What brainwashed fools! Here we had a GA sayings the church is losing members like a sieve, you partriarch may not be inspired, and all the last days hype of the 1980's is gone. Jesus ain't comming anytime some because Mormonism hasn't conquered the earth yet.

These people still worshipped the dude because he was a GA and basqued in their group think worship. The guy could have said anything and they still would have lapped it up like a thrirsty kitten.

SCARY! I had more respect for Elder Mickelsen than the members of the ward. He at least was laying it down halfway truthfully. Hope he doesn't get in trouble if Gordo reads this. LOL!

I have a brother-in-law who is bishop in a Salt Lake City area ward. We were golfing yesterday and in some of the discussion we had I made the comment that the church seems to be shrinking. He said it is and that's why Salt Lake has been jumping all over the stake presidents to focus on the hometeaching program more than ever. It's no longer about missionary work, it's about retaining or reactivating members (another good reason to have you records removed if you haven't).

My brother in law said in his ward, they don't have the high priests nor the elders who are willing to fullfill all of their home teaching duties. He also said he has an alarming number of members telling him they are losing their testimonys and the younger couples want his permission on getting a divorce.

So it sounds like the Mormon popsicle is melting and Salt Lake just guilt trips the local members that they aren't doing their home teaching and that is why the church losing members.

I think many members go to their bishop hoping he will get mad and think they aren't worthy of church callings. I think many members are starting to crack, they want the pressure off their back. They go to the bishop and say they don't believe in it and they think the bishop is going to go, well if that's how you feel, don't come to church then. It's kind of like when I was on my mission and wanted to be sent home for being sick. In a way, the members are getting to be like Klinger on MASH where they want the bishop to give them a Section 8. LOL!

Well, telling the church leaders you have you your doubts will only bring their attention on you more, and unless you've committed a huge sin like embezzling church funds, they aren't going to boot you out but assign the best home teachers to you and give you a calling that will keep you in line.

The members want to be kicked out of the church because they seem to lack the fortitude to leave. They tell the truth to the bishop hoping he will get angry and take all the church duties away from these people. Then they can spin it and blame their exit from the church on the bishop. It's a face saving thing. Subconciousely, they don't want to be the ones who bolted from the church because they didn't believe it. Nope, they want to say the bishop being out of line is why they are no longer in the ward.

In short, people more than ever want out of the church pressure cooker. A small minority leave and are honest about why they left. The majority want to blame someone for their exit. I think the reason is they fear what their friends and family will think if they tottaly come clean and say they don't believe it.

Mormon families will tolerate a family member not going to church because they have dissagreements with the bishop but they are intolerable on family members who flat out say, "Mormonism is all bullshit!"

What's going on now is the members are rebelling and going to their bishop saying,"I'm losing my testimony." What they are really saying is they want out of the Mormon pressure cooker and they want to be released from their calling.

These people are searching for the safest way out subconciousely. They are starting to crack.

From June 2000 to August 2002, I was a ward clerk in the Olympus Cove area in Salt Lake City. The membership in the two stakes in olympus Cove started dropping rapidly about 25 years ago from normal demographic shift as the kids who grew up in the first houses of the new subdivisions up here began to leave home.

The two stakes (as of the time I was fired from the ward clerk job) had dropped to a combined total membership of less than three thousand. The SPs and the Bishops are having a very tough time staffing their stakes and wards. In one instance, the 6th and 7th wards combined their primaries, yw and ym programs so they could have enough people to staff and have classes. In 2002 the 7th ward had a total membership of only 258 with an average age of 63 and only ten members under 25.

For along time there have been many members up here wanting to consolidate the two stakes and make big enough wards to operate effectively. To no avail: the church will not consolidate here and eliminate units.

In Feb of 2002 Henry Eyring showed up at Stake Conference and had a revelation for us in the Priesthood leadership meeting. He prophesied to us in the name of the Lord that it would be wrong to consolidate because the church in this area was going to grow back up to its 1980 numbers in the next 5-8 years. But, true to form it was one of those "contingent" prophecies.

So when it "comes to pass" that in 2006 the two Olympus stakes are still shrinking, it won't be because Henry's Prophecy was horse shit. It will be because the people here were not "faithful" enough, didn't provide the mishies with enough referals, didn't search around when houses in our neighborhoods came up for sale to find mormons to buy them. Or maybe it will be because all the mishies assigned to this area were masturbating too much. I'm sure you all know the drill.

The Montgomery, Alabama stake was created in 1975. The two branches which had existed there since 1955 became two wards, meeting in the stake center. Around 1990, the church built another chapel and created a third ward in the inner city with the intention of attracting thousands of formerly accursed Canaanites to the now-not-racist one true church. A few dozen blacks joined, and a few became contributors, but most of them soon went inactive, as do most converts everywhere.

So after years of struggling to make the small ward survive, the boundaries were realigned, and the three wards in the city of some 200k population were combined back to its original two. So you've got this humongous stake center with only one ward meeting in it, and another large new-style chapel with only one ward. The city still has the same number of LDS units it had in 1955, the year I was born. And let's keep in mind that over this 30-year period, the Montgomery area has exploded in population and economic progress.

Also, Prattville, which is a few miles northwest of Montgomery, and has been a boomtown for at least 40 years, still has the one ward that was created there in 1975. Even though a whole generation has passed for the ward's children to grow up and make the ward increase, it isn't growing. Either the children are growing up and moving away, or they're leaving the church.

The church claims a tottal of 26,670 congregational units. This would be the grand total of all wards and branches in the church. In the Mormon Corridor a large ward is 500 members but many wards are only 300 members. Branches are considerably less.

This being the case, all of the 26,670 congregational units would have to have close to 500 members in them to get the total worldwide church membership it claims. Basically, the church is saying every ward and branch has as many people as a large ward in Orem, Utah does. Dream on!

I'm not aware of a single ward in the UK witha membership of 300. A large ward in the UK would have about 150 members. A typical branch may have 20 members.

That means that the other wards and branches in the world must have >300 members per ward/branch.

Most large cities (over one million population) in Japan have a ward or two in them. Each ward has probably around 600-700 names on the list, but you only get about 50-60 people showing up each week. That's makes home teaching really tough.

I remember when Elder xxxxx came by for stake conference and he chastized the elderly retired guys for not home teaching 30 families a month. He basically called them out during the meeting and told them that they had free time now to do the lord's work.

From my days in Bishoprics and Branch Presidencies I would have to say that at least 30% of the members the church carries on it's records identify themselves with other or no faiths. Amother 10% leave their names on the records but really have no attachment to the church. Another 10% belong to the church but maintain a personal religion that is only peripheral to LDS.

The church probably has the typical 40% attendence rate. A large number are children who attend because of the parents. Some adults attend for reasons other than a devotion to the faith.

I have looked for a table of membership stats online that goes back to the 19th Century and haven't been able to find one.

Anyway, lacking a table, I went to LDS.org and created one of my own from the conference reports that goes back to 1973. I found a few interesting things.

Church membership has grown about 370% since 1973, from 3.3 million to 12.3 million. But lots of statistics have not shared that positive growth.

Children of record being baptized went from 48k in 1973 to 99k in 2004. That is only double, not keeping up with the pace of the growth of membership.

One would expect (and the church would hope) that as wards and branches were added, the number of members per unit would either stay about the same or drop (due to higher activity levels). But right now there are 460 members per unit, highest in the period I studied. In 1980, the figure was 368.

One would thing (and the church would hope) that the number of members per missionary would stay around the same. But in 1977 (the first year the church reported the number of missionaries in the conference report), there were 157 members per missionary. In 2004 that number was up to 240, the highest on my table.

Converts per missionary dipped below 5 in 2000 and hasn't been over 5 since. It had never been below five in the years that both membership and missionaries were reported. There was a high of 8.03 in 1989.

Back in the 1970's and early 1980's the church would report the number of priesthood holders. In 1979, the church reported 1,094,000 priesthood holders, an increase of 107,000 over the previous year. The next year, 1980, they reported 1,083,000 priesthood holders and proclaimed it an increase of 42,000 over the previous year. Somebody must have caught their math error and let them know, because that was the last time they announced the amount of increase over the last year. They stopped reporting priesthood numbers completely with the 1986 report.

To sum up, the church membership statistics show dramatic growth over the last three decades, but also a distinct shift toward high inactivity levels and unproductive missionary efforts.

So the increase in membership from one year to the next should be the total of the first two minus the total of the second two. That means the increase each year should always be something less than the sum of the first two -- even if the church doesn't report the numbers for deaths or excommunications/resignations. Even given the near-impossibility of a year passing with no members dying or being removed from the church, the increase can never be more than the sum of the first two.

But there are several years where the increase in membership is more than the sum of child and convert baptisms -- sometimes radically more. Clearly, someone is fiddling with the numbers.

In 1989 there was the biggest membership jump ever, yet the baptism numbers don't support it. One theory is that the church redefined "member" to include children of record. But that doesn't explain the anomalies since then.

Among the many stats that they don't report are the numbers leaving/excommunicated, number of living temple endowments, or *anything* that has to do with $$$$. As you say, they have stopped reporting the number of PH ordinations. That figure, along with living temple endowments, would be the best indicator of "activity". Obviously, both figures are down, or else they would still be reporting them. I suspect that they also continue to report those of us who have resigned in the total church figures.

You will also note that growth in the # of stakes and wards, which is pretty hard to fake, doesn't keep pace with the reported # of convert baptisms. IOW, you really can't trust *any* stats that come from the Great and Spacious COB. The closest thing you will find to reliable stats can be found at www.cumorah.com The guy who maintains that site is a TBM, but he's about as honest and objective as guy as you can find in Mormondom.

Years	Wards & Branches	Members	Members/Ward, Branch
1980	12,591	4,638,000	368
1990	18,090	7,760,000	428
2000	25,915	11,068,861	427
2001	26,084	11,394,522	426
2002	26,143	11,721,548	448
2003	26,237	11,985,254	456
2004	26,670	12,275,822	460

Note the increasing number of members per congregation over the years. Why is it that in 1980 the number of members who filled an average congregation was 368, yet in 2004 the number of members to fill the average congregation jumped to 460 – a 25% increase over 24 years?

Where did the room come from to absorb these extra members? True, the church could be making Wards and Branches more “member-dense“, but the more likely explanation is that this room has been generated by: (1) an increasing number of inactive members or, (2) members leaving the church but being kept on the rolls or, (3) a combination of these two.

Year	Stakes	Members	Members/Stake
1980	1218	4,638,000	3808
1990	1784	7,760,000	4350
2000	2581	11,068,861	4289
2001	2607	11,394,522	4371
2002	2602	11,721,548	4505
2003	2624	11,985,254	4568
2004	2665	12,275,822	4606

I'm in Sacramento area - grew up in Bay area. They are scrambling with reorganizing boundaries, etc to make it appear that there is no decline, but there really is.

We moved away from this area for 3 years and when we got back they had "reorganized ward boundaries and our ward is so tiny they can't fill the callings needed.

They have combined stakes in Bay area and I know of at least 3 wards that have been dissolved/rearranged into other wards just in my Mom's stake - they always re-name the wards or stakes so that they can claim that they have created a new one instead of dissolving one. LOL! It's a great PR ploy - makes the members think the church is growing when it's not.

CA is really rough for younger people to afford to live here. The younger generation is not replacing the older ones in the church. This could be playing a major part in it - finances. I know we sure have had a hard time getting on our feet here. Thankfully we're solid homeowners now. - Jennyfoo

For years the Morg didn't even have missionaries in the District of Columbia at all because it is has an overwhelming black majority (black men couldn't hold the priesthood). A few decades and modern revalations ago, they said they were going to take over D.C. by storm. So far, there are only a few small branches in the District and they are rather pathetic. Turnover is VERY high among "converts" to the Mormon church in D.C. The missionaries still avoid large sections of the city (either because of "homosexual problems" or crime).

The only "growth" is in the outersuburbs. The oldest wards in the innersuburban rings within the counties Arlington (VA), Alexandria (VA), Montgomery (MD) and Prince George's (MD) are stuggling. Mormon-syle people are being forced further and further out as immigrant communities move in and housing prices go up. The Morg is building new buildings in further out in Virgina and Maryland, but the old buildings typically only service one ward and one branch and they struggle with attendance problems. The big increase in hispanic population has helped increase conversions a bit, but these branches suck the life out of the stakes that have to support them.

Convert retention is an enormous issue in the National Capitol area. Less than 10 percent of converts are active two years after baptism. I don't know of any traditional families that have converted. It is usually individuals with a lot of temporal needs. They come at first and drop away after a few months. The new push is to reactive people, and then get them to the temple.

The Washington, D.C. temple used to be the pride of the East Coast. Very busy and robust. With the new mini temples in the east, the Washington temple is actually struggling. Endowment sessions get cancelled all the time. Wards temple nights are sparsely attended (if at all in many instances). One area authority called temple attendance the area's worst problem.

I don't know about all of the D.C. metro area, but our ward is a Little Piece of Zion. Most of the active people in my ward moved here from Utah/Idaho or have family in Utah/Idaho. So even in the Nation's Capitol, Mormonism is still a Utah religion. - WashingtonExmo

My observation in New Mexico When you say decline or stagnant does it means low growth or decline compared to state population?

I live in NM and many UT, CO, ID and AZ people are moving to Albuquerque. In fact MorgCorp has seen an upswing in membership in NM due to the economy and employment rates compared to other states. We have new LDS buildings, wards and our own McTemple but this isn't due to "NEW" members or converts. It's because all of those D*mn Morgbots are moving here. If the membership growth here was compared to the population increase of state and city then the rate would probably show New Mexico was declining in Mormon membership and baptisms. The ratio of MorgBots to normal people is actually dropping. - Didymus

There were no baptisms whatsoever, and there was no leadership to handle the handful of Lamanite members still left. - New Mexico Too

We recently moved from San Diego to Florida. I was in 3 wards over the last 7 years and all of them were really struggling. The one ward we lived in that did okay was also very affluent. But on any given sunday most of the people attending were folks on vacation just going to sacrament.

Our last ward there was the most pathetic. We tried to organize an event and only 10 people bothered to show up. Even my TBM (true believing Mormon) hubby at the time was puzzled.

As for Florida, we don't attend here. I do have to drive by the church each day and on sunday it seems to be well attended. I believe it only has one ward though.

I had moved from a very affluent young family Ward in San Diego to an middle class blue collar Ward in East San Diego. I couldn't believe it was so small besides the fact that I had nothing in common with the other members because the only people that seemed to go were seniors. In speaking with other friends who have moved from my hometown, the concensus is the same. Less people are going. With fewer members, whomever is active and able bodied gets stuck with not one or two demanding callings, but three or four plus regular visiting/home teaching of several people. Much easier to go inactive than take on that kind of workload. Also, once inactive, you don't have to pay tithing and I know by where I live, most of us can barely pay to put gas in our cars. - Kamali

We've been here 10.5 years and have seen one split of our ward (about 4 years ago when I was in the bishopric). During this time, a new stake was created and I think it probable that another one is in the offing (our stake and the one next to it each has 11 units). I can think of four new buildings built during this time (one stake center) and ground has been broken for what is supposed to be another stake center. Sounds like a poster-child for the work rolling forth, no?

But where are all the new members coming from? Out of state (and, in the past anyway, often to work for my employer, the largest single one in the county). From what I've been able to see, the baptismal rate is pathetic and retention of the few converts (virtually no families) is almost non-existent.

So the new buildings are simply to spread the load out a bit (reducing a building from 3 or 4 units to 2 units) and to create a cushion for the hoped-for increase to accompany the on-going construction of new homes. One of my co-workers is the bishop of a ward in an older, established area. That ward isn't growing at all - shrinking a little, in fact.

Although I am out of the Morg, I am in boundries of the Ashburn, VA stake. Most of the people here are from, or have families in the Mormon corridor with many high level Morg connections from that region. A lot of young families, and very, very, yuppie.

In fact, the whole Ashburn stake is growing by leaps and bounds and there will be a ward split this Sunday. No converts to speak of, the whole stake is rather an inbred, ethnic Mormon ghetto. - Skybolt

Bergen County NJ with a population of over 900,000 people just across the Hudson River from Manhattan.....wealthy and expensive. MORG has 3 small wards. No growth in 30 years. I passed the one chapel recently.....built in the early 1960's. It was very dated and almost looked abandonded. Grass the overgrown and the shrubs were unkept.

Just to the north in Orange County, New York. Fastest growing county in New York State...two small wards. The chapels are tiny and I hear poorly attended. No converts to speak of.

The MORG brags about growth in Manhattan, especially in Harlem. They are building one small chapel in Harlem. With a population of literally millions of people within a few miles...this is nothing to brag about. - StMatthew

Church growth here in Manhattan is very interesting. We have a few converts in our ward, lower Manhattan, but most tend to be single-parent families. But the main driver for growth is people moving from Utah to come here, most of the time temporarily. Now we have a temple here and everyone is all in a dither about it. I have no idea in the world what has possessed the Church to build a chapel in Harlem, and, mind you this is no "small chapel". It's four or five stories. (I have now idea how they plan on using the building.)

There are also plans to buy/build a new chapel on the Upper East Side as well. We recently moved to our new building on 14th Street last year. I have no idea what is happening out in the other boroughs, but I do know that the Bronx still is not a Stake. There are a lot of Latinos in Queens and Brooklyn, so I think that there is some marginal growth there. - fill

My local ward in Seoul is one of the very first wards established in this country.

We meet in one of the very first LDS stake centers built on the Asian continent. Old, but still a nice, large building with all the amenities of a stake center in the states.

Sacrament meeting attendance last week: 26 adults, not counting two full-time mishies. And one of those 26 was me, a full-blown apostate attending because my wife asked me to.

There have been zero convert baptisms in this ward the four years I've been here.

Only one ward meets in this building because there is no need to share the facilities. There just aren't any other members around to use it.

Same thing for the Seoul temple. It's full to capacity on Friday nights, but go any other day of the week and it's either closed completely or the temple mishies are doing the ordinances themselves.

And it's not a long drive. It's right in the middle of downtown Seoul with bus stops and subways stops conveniently located nearby. You can see the Mormoni statue in the distance from over the rooftops of one of Seoul's well-known shopping/hanging-out districts.

According to my local mishies, who visit me periodically to get me to come back, there are only 30 or so convert baptisms in Korea per month these days. Less than 400 per year for a country of 47 million people. And of course, as is the case with the Philipines, most of these are 15 year old girls who go inactive as soon as the mishies leave the area.

After years of observation, I believe that the true destruction of the Mormon church will come from the same force that is hurting other fraternal organizations, APATHY.

The Lions Club, Rotary Club, Elks Club, IOOF, VFW, Masons and other organizations have seen a decline in membership as the current members get older and are not replaced.

The same trend is happening in the Mormon church. Though "growing" in size by conversion and births, the true test of vitality is attendance and participation. You notice the new charge from the leadership of the Mormon church is activation and fellowshipping. Even Gordy has spent valuable pulpit time talking about how it doesn't serve the Mormon god to "baptize" new members who soon go inactive. Other signs of implosion is the lack of volunteers in Mormon church directed activities such as "ward parties", "cannery assignments", "temple attendance" and other time wasters. More and more members are finding excuses why they cannot participate in these "Mormon" activities.

Most telling of the apathy is that the members are not supporting directed activities needed by the Mormon church to function. The evil part of the assignments is that most are made to help the Mormon church from having to hire full time employees. Things like janitors, secretaries, researchers, etc. is full time work that is for the benefit of the Mormon church only and not the World. Just look at the number of "Service Missions" posted in the foyer of the chapel and you will notice that they are all to support the Mormon church daily administrative functions.

No, the modern Mormon doesn't have time to support such nonsense. They would rather give of their money than their time.

I think you all have too much time on your hands. If you hate the church so much why do you spend all of your time talking about it? Why don't you just go find a new church and spend time uplifting your new faith instead of bashing on a perfectly fine religion? I had a roommate who was "Catholic" and guess what, she only went to church twice a year (Christmas and Easter). But she still claimed to be Catholic. Just because people are less active than others doesn't mean they should not be included in the total population of that religion. It would be quite hard to get a number for the "die hard" mormons in the world. What would be your criteria to get an acurrate number? Furthermore you would have to get that criteria for all other religions to get a true count. Don't act like LDS people are the only ones misrepresenting their numbers. I know a lot of other people from other faiths that are not "die hard" members of their faith but they would still check off the appropriate box! on the census form.

These graphs of LDS membership distribution sure helps put things in perspective.

About half of all Mormons -- 5.5 million -- live in the United States, where they represent about 2% of the population.

Five countries -- the US, Mexico (1 million), Brazil (809,000), Chile (520,000) and Philippines (496,000) -- represent 70% of church membership.

In Mexico, Mormons are about .98% of the population. In Brazil, about 0.5%. In Chile, about 3.3%. In Philippines, about 0.6%.

The top 20 countries (the top 5 plus Peru, Argentina, Guatemala, UK, Canada, Equador, Colombia, Bolivia, Japan, Venezuela, Honduras, Australia, New Zealand, El Salvador and Uruguay) represent 89% of church membership.

The remaining 11% of church membership is spread out across 225 other countries.

30 years ago there were about 4 billion people on the planet and 3.5 million Mormons on the books. That works out to about 0.08%

Now there are about 6.3 billion people and 12 million members, which is about 0.2%.

At a measly 8% relative growth rate over the past decade, Mormon 'growth' in the US is vastly outstripped by Catholics (+11%), Presbyterians (+12%), Episcopalian/Anglican (+13%), Pentacostals (+38%), Churches of Christ (+47%), Assemblies of God (+68%), and Congregationalist/United Church of Christ (+130%).

And while the Seventh Day Adventists have fewer US members than Mormons, internationally their numbers have recently passed the LDS members, making 7DAdventism the "largest home-grown American religion", not Mormonism. (Incidentally, 7thDay-Adventism was founded later than LDS, so given that they've now surpassed Mormon memberhsip numbers, that makes them a faster growing church than Mormonism.) - 09/12/2004 - by Langdon

I have been intrigued with questions about the number of church members around the world, and also provided links to census material that shows a large discrepancy between the number of members claimed by the church and those that profess to be so.

This got me started thinking about the church here in the UK. As of this afternoon the church claims on its website that there are 178,920 members of the church in the United Kingdom (England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland).

We had our ten yearly census in 2001. The question regarding religious affiliation was voluntary. Below is a link to a PDF sample of the census form.

As you can see there are a number of tick boxes, including "christian" which is the second one, or at the bottom there is "other" with a space to write in the specific denomination.

The results show that out of a population of 58,789,194 there were 42,079,417 who considered themselves to be christian, 178,837 who were "other" and 13,626,299 who were "No Religion / Religion not stated". The link is below.

I emailed the census people and asked them if there was a more detailed breakdown of the "other" figure which people then filled in voluntarily. I was told that this information was available. The reason it was a voluntary question was because it had been specially commissioned to be included in the census, and as such wasn't included on the website when they presented all the other data. There was no problem with me having the data, i just had to agree to certain conditions before it could be sent out. A copy of these conditions are here.

I emailed back to accept the conditions and just after lunch today i received an Excel spreadsheet with the information on it.

Now remember the number claimed by the church is 178,920. The number of people in this country that indicated they were members of the church was 12,722.

There are a number of observations I could make. I have to say up front that I think there are more active members than this, i.e. that attend on a regular basis. One of the big problems that the church faces in this country is being perceived by and large as some American cult (and we scratch our head and wonder how people could think that!)

Some members of the church may have wanted to specifically identify themselves as "Christian" by ticking that box. To balance that, quite a number of Catholics, Protestants, Baptists, etc. also skipped the "christian" box and specifically identified themselves by their denomination.

Being TBM (true believing Mormon) at the time, my (frustratingly still TBM) wife and i wanted to do our bit to bring the church out of obscurity and darkness by indicating that we were LDS on the form.

And as for the Obi-Wan Kenobi reference in the subject line? In the months before the census there was an email that went round telling people that if more than 10,000 people identified themselves as being a "Jedi Knight" on the census then the government would be "forced to accept" it as an "official" religion.

It was complete bollocks of course, but how many of my fellow countrymen, and women, so indicated? 390,127. Thats right folks, we have thirty times more Jedi Knights in the UK than LDS!

Note of interest/caution. The number of 390,127 is larger than the figure given as the total listed as having ticked the "other" box (178,837). I think from the looks of the numbers that they took the people who indicated a christian denomination in the "other" section and just added them to the christian total, and did same for others, e.g. "Jewish". As Jedi clearly isn't a real religion they prob put this with the "No Religion / Religion not stated" total. This is speculation and i have emailed them to clarify this.

I've posted most of this info here before, but since the Church seems to put out the same BS frequently it is worth posting again.

The PR hacks at headquarters are trotting out the tired old story about Spanish speaking Mormons.

Once a predominantly U.S.-centered religious institution, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has become international. Of its 12 million members worldwide, more than half -- 6.4 million -- live outside the United States, the majority in Spanish-speaking countries.

I went to the Church's website and got population stats for all the Spanish speaking countries. Taking their numbers at face value I got a total of 3,328,723 members they claim to have in South America, Central America, Mexico and Spain.

The two with the highest claimed Mormon populations are Mexico and Chile, with 952,950 and 527,900 respectively.

These also happen to be the only two countries in Latin America that have Mormon as a category in the religion portion of their national censuses.

The Mexican census(see link below) shows that some 205,229 Mexicans over the age of 5 claimed Mormon in the census; 21.5% of the Church's number.

The Chilean census(see link below) paints a similar picture. Some 103,735 Chileans over the age of 15 claimed Mormon as their religious preference. As the Church counts everyone over 8 as a member we can probably add 10,000 the the count and make it an even 113,000 and not be too far off. Again, that yields 21.4% of the Church's number.

Keep in mind this is not the percentage of active members, but merely people who consider themselves to be Mormon. It stands to reason that active members consider themselves to be LDS, but also added in there are inactives who for whatever reason think of themselves, for census purposes, as Mormons.

I think these numbers are the upper limit for percentages of baptisms that consider themselves LDS. Mexico and Chile have each produced more mission presidents and general authorities than other Spanish-speaking countries. Mexico has the most temples outside of the US. That would seem to indicate the Church is stronger there than in countries like Uruguay or Paraguay.

So I'm being generous when I apply the 21.5% rule to the Church's numbers to calculate a total number of Spanish speaking people who consider themselves to be Mormons; truth be told if we include countries like Nicaragua and Costa Rica the number would be lower still.

21.5% of 3,328,723 gives us 715,675 Spanish speaking Mormons who consider themselves such. Remember that the next time someone in your ward starts popping off about more members speaking Spanish than English--if that is indeed true they're in worse shape than they think.

Think of all the man-years given to preaching the gospel in Latin America. Think of the tons of intestinal parasites endured by thousands of misshies. The money spent by them and their parents. The years of sleepless nights endured by their mothers while their kids lived in hovels, drinking polluted water and getting shot at. For what? After 80 years of presence in South America and over 120 years in Mexico not even one million people consider themselves LDS. So much for the gospel filling the whole earth.

In fact, the referenced article paints a grimmer picture. They speak of 144,000 Spanish speaking Mormons in the US and some 428 congregations. That yields an average of 299 members per unit. Quoting from the story as it appeared in the Dallas Morning News, "...the 45 people in attendance nodded in agreement."

Those of you who went to missions down there can figure it out actual activity rates fairly easily. I am very familiar with Chile as my in-laws live there. The Church claims 527,900 members in 713 units. That works out 741 members per unit. The most I ever saw at Church was 100, and that was at one of the oldest most affluent wards in all of South America. I typically saw 50-70 active members in a ward. That would seem to indicate an activity rate of 10-13%.

My brother went to Costa Rica; claimed membership of 32,563 with 76 congregations for an average of 428 members per congregation. He never saw more than 40 active members in a ward or branch.

It almost seems that kids who want to serve their fellow man and grow the Church in Latin America would be better off signing up for the Peace Corps and going to Church every week while there. They could help provide badly needed leadership and lead by example.

Here's a little tidbit I found on the growth of the church in Latin America. A recently returned missionary (now on BYU's football team) told a reporter about the growth of the church in Nicaragua.

Assuming between 3-5,000 active members per stake, that translates to between 6-11% activity rate. So, there are between 6,000-10,000 active Mormons in a country with a population of approximately 5,000,000. The percentage of active Mormons in Nicaragua is somewhere between .12% and .2% of the population in general.

That stone cut out of the mountain without hands sure is taking its time as it fills the whole earth, huh? Isn't it wonderful? Isn't it marvelous?

I don't think Chile is that different from other developing countries where the Church experienced tremendous growth.

If you look at the Chilean census of 2002 you'll see clearly where the problem comes in: there are only 14,000 self-identified Mormon males between the ages of 30 and 44, and only 7,089 between the ages of 45 and 59. There are 682 wards, 168 branches, and 111 stakes.

That means local leadership at the stake and ward level alone takes up nearly 15% of self-described LDS males between the ages of 30 and 59. This is before we start calling EQ presidencies, mission leaders, gospel doctrine teachers, etc....And we are also assuming that all these men are active and hold the Melchizedek priesthood. If even 10% of them don't then nearly 20% of those who are active and hold the priesthood are involved in bishoprics, stake presidencies and high councils, and branch and district presidencies.

Given the socioeconomic realities in Chile this is just not enough people to create and sustain vibrant Church units.

Figures you published about the number of Mormons and Mormon converts (which were probably provided by the church) are misleading, for several reasons. The Mormon church (unlike many other denominations) does not make public the number of people who resign their memberships or who simply stop participating. The church claims 800 converts per day; but - according to unofficial inside sources - at least 250 Mormons per day are resigning their membership, and an additional equal number are estimated to be leaving without taking any kind of official action (meaning that they are still counted by the church as "members").

A Mormon sociologist (Armand Mauss) has estimated that of new converts in North America, 50% are no longer participating a year later. The figure he gives for other areas is 75%. The low retention rate is quite understandable in light of the fact that Mormon missionaries pressure investigators to commit to baptism after only a few weeks of indoctrination, before they have an opportunity to learn the negative aspects of Mormonism.

My TBM (True Believing Mormon) brother shows up for a visit and drags me to Saturday night General Conference Priesthood Meeting. We arrive about 20 seconds early and see the satellite count down. There are about about a dozen others in attendance: The temple presidency (3) geezers, mishies (4), 2 hardballs from the EQ, two hopelessly single singles and the retired Stake Patriarch.

Where is everyone he asks? I rub it in. I point out who is conspicuously absent: The Stake President who lives in our ward, the entire Bishopric including various clerks, the entire High Priest and Elder's Q. Presidencies although hardball number one could soon be called to fill a vacancy there, 4 or 5 members of the High Council from our ward, the entire Young Men's Presidency and the entire Aaronic priesthood for that matter, the ward mission leader, and various other officers as now constituted.

He looks at me and says: You live in a different world. I respond you don't live in the real world out there in Utah.

Now I didn't play entirely fair. He was under the impression that this was a Stake Meeting and not one ward. And I did sit up front so he didn't see a couple dozen more sneak in late.

By the end of the meeting the Stake President had arrived about 1 hour late, one Bishop's counselor, two High Priests, one of the High Counsel and teenage son, and total attendance was about 30-40 or so. Not bad.

The bad news breaks, and the Board of Directors calls an emergency meeting in the Upper Room of the Temple. Sitting around the table, the following responses are heard from the Board members, all present and accounted for:

Boyd K. Packer - "I knew this would happen when they started playing with their little factories."

L. Tom Perry - "I really don't know what to say without a teleprompter. But, if you want, I can go out and smile a lot."

Neal A. Maxwell - "This imploding is a foreboding of our lives corroding, as our connection with perfection cascades into tangles of misdirection, as we sense the power of the divine and sublime unfolding yet exploding, much like a mosiac of floating tiles upon a tumultuous ocean of devolving devotion filled with commotion, locomotion and of false hopes for perpetual promotion, thus seeing and being seized upon, supercalifragilisticexpeealidocious . . ."

Russell M. Nelson -"Don't look at me, Brethren. I'm may be a doctor but I can't fix a system that's rotten to the core."

Dallin H. Oaks - "Legally speaking, we have here what appears to be a no-win situation. That said, my reading of the statutes of the Utah state constitution--combined with a close examination of the case for Book of Mormon historicity--does allow, in a strict but technically defensible sense, for the burning down of the Salt Lake Tribune, on the grounds that it constitutes a public nuisance; i.e., a threat to the peace and tranquility necessary for the survival of our revealed form of iron-fisted theocracy."

M. Russell Ballard - "Well, boys, this can't be good for stock prices. I could use a beer."

Richard G. Scott - "I solemnly testify that these are numbers too sacred to speak of here."

Robert D. Hales - "Maybe if I rub my CTR ring, a genie will appear and help us."

Jeffrey R. Holland - "We used to have the same problem when I was president at the Y. It all has to do with too many members living off-campus."

Henry B. Eyring - "When I was the Church Commissioner of Education, we would just ignore bad numbers that didn't add up, like poor Seminary attendance. So, I know that if we close our eyes and think happy, bland thoughts, this will all go away."

James E. Faust - "What will this mean for my planned trip to visit the Bahama branch of the Church?"

Gordon B. Hinckley - "Marvelous. This is just friggin' marvelous. Get Larry King on the phone."

Let see, LDS church increases at a rate of membership of about 1000 per day so even if 150 leave per day, that is still a net increase of 850 per day. That is still pretty good. - 02/06/2004 - anon

The problem with that 1000 a day conversion rate is that the long term retention is about 5%. So the way I calculate it:

1. The church gets 50 new active members daily,
2. It looses about 950 newly inactive members daily,
3. And only 150 of those names are taken off the roll daily.

This explains why our ward roster is 30 pages thick and we get about 50 people to Sacrament meeting. Home teaching routes approach 16 per active person (800 divided by 50) which translates into >32 per companionship. If you go out every day you might make all your monthly visits, but you won't reactivate anyone.

The missionaries get exactly what they pray for, baptisms. They seldom get actual conversions who go on to be productive contributing members. The growth of the church is stagnant and the members are groaning under the enormous and ever increasing burden of trying to deal with the hordes of inactives who do not want to be bothered. The leaders are pretending all is well in Zion because they don't know what else to do, like be honest and confront a real problem for once.

But you know what? It doesn't matter. Popularity was never a measure of what is true. - 02/12/2004 - anon

I had just got done telling my TBM friend all about how only 25% of the 11 million members in the Church even are "Active". And how only half of those few have ever been endowed, and how only half of those endowed even have a current temple recommend and how only half of those that have a current temple recommend even go to the temple regularly (min. 1x a month). That takes the 11 million down to only 250,000 who actually are following what the Church DEMANDS -- which is to go to the temple, make death-penalty-like covenants and attend the the temple faithfully.

Well........obviously she outright refused to believe what I said until she heard it from the STAKE dude's mouth today in sacrament. I couldn't believe my ears that they were telling the members these grave statistics. I know it was in effort to get more people to feel guilty and go to the temple as well as (as he mentioned, pay more tithing, pay more fast offerings, etc) Sound familiar, eh? More money.

Anyways, waht do you think that those faithful on the pews are thinking right now to have heard that "Only 50% of those ever endowed hold a recommend" I guess that might not be enough to bring the point home since they didn't get the overall # of how few are even active, and how fewer are endowed, but got that only 50% of endowed have a current TR, but missed getting that even fewer go regularly. All of which are obvious logically, but the members don't ever look for glaring signs that their church isn't growing let alone, that no one is doing what they are supposed to do as faithful LDS members.

Weird -- so many people blindly "follow the prophet" or atleast say they do, but yet they don't go to the temple. (Ofcourse, I know a few that say they got scared and don't want to ever go back. I bet that's alot of those 50% that are MIA)

In 2001 & 2002 the church converted 49,000 people in the Philippines, but only 1000 of those people 'remained active'.

I guarantee you that the church still counts all 49,000 as members when they claim they are 'one of the world's fastest growing churches'

Fascinating comparison. You have made one very serious calculation error. You used statistics quoted by the church in General Conference for 1990 & 2001. But those reports are made in May of 1990/2001 and they give 1989/2000 data.

So you are comparing membership numbers from the church in 1989 with membership numbers from the CUNY survey in 1990. Same error in 2001. In a rapidly growing church this difference in one year could generate enormous discrepancies.

Total members in 1989 (stat report 1990) 7.76 m
Total members in 1990 (stat report 1991) 8.12 m

Total members in 2000 (stat report 2001) 11.4 m
Total members in 2001 (stat report 2002) 11.7 m

(To be totally anal we need to find out what time of the year the survey was done and pro- rate it between these numbers but lets not go that far.)

So that gives us an additional 300,000 or more total members in the church statistics in both years. Divide them down as you have previously here-to-for done and that still gives you something significantly more (you do the math) than 100,000 adult members according to the church. And that means that YOUR POINT IS EVEN STRONGER!!! and that the number of missing Mormons is at least 100,000 higher than you calculated, well over a million for 2001.

With liars, critics and clowns like this bunch, no wonder the Mormon church comes out smelling like a skunk instead of something worse.

From the land of reggae (Jamaica). The Morg (slang for Mormon Church) has failed to establish a new collective (Stake) there. Last week, (I think 06 Dec 2003) Elder H. Aldridge Gillespie was in Jamaica to create the first Stake. Instead, during the meeting he stood up and said "We had hoped to progress in establishing the first Stake in Jamaica, but that will not happen..."

Well, it looks like Jamaica is not ready to be assimilated into the Morg collective.

I was not there, but people I know were. We don't talk about the LDS church anymore. All I know is they were there, excited about the prospect (having ties to the island), and came back upset that the announcement about "no stake" was made in public to the members who were anticipating the creation of their 1st stake.

There was a link on SLDrone's post on growth to an "American Religious Identification Survey". This survey looked at the religious affiliation of adults in the US in 1990 and in 2001. I've seen this survey before, but I never sat down and put some numbers to it. I did so tonight and came out with some interesting information. Here's the link to the survey:

Be aware, of two things. First, this survey only asked US adults their religious affiliation, not necessarily their membership or their activity rate. So, this won't be useful in determining actual resignations, but it will be useful in giving us 'directional' information (as my old boss used to say).

Second, I did this relatively quickly and I didn't have time to do a lot of research and verify (from multiple sources) all the numbers. I also made a couple of assumptions, so if anyone notices any 'faulty logic', let me know and I'll revise the numbers.

	1990	2001	Total Growth
Total members world wide	7,760,000	11,394,522	46.8% (assumed 55% in 1990, 50% in 2001 - anyone have better %s?)
USA members	4,268,000	5,697,000	33.5%
Total members over 18	2,816,880	3,760,192	33.5% (According to the census, UT has 32% population under 18 - I assumed 34% for the Mormon population)
Survey Mormons Total	2,500,000	2,787,000	11.5%
Survey Mormons 18-29	675,000	808,230	19.7%
Survey Mormons 65+	325,000	418,050	28.6%
Survey Mormons 30-64	1,500,000	1,560,720	4.0% (this is calculated - the survey only included 18-29 and 65+, so I put the balance in this 30-64 group)
Missing?	316,880	973,192	207.1% (this is the difference between 'official' Mormon numbers and the survey numbers = i.e. 2,816,880 - 2,500,000 = 316,880)

Total number of 'missing' members increased by 656,312 (207%) over the 11 years or almost 60,000 per year. How many of these have officially resigned? Who knows?!?! But keep in mind that this is only in the US! International membership is roughly equal to the US and the attrition rate is probably higher (no facts off hand to back it up, but just an assumption based on what I've read in the past), so you could conservatively double that number to 120,000+ annually to account for the worldwide membership.

The big defectors seem to be in the 30-64 age range (matches my own personal experience). This group only had a 4% increase in ELEVEN YEARS according to the survey!

I notice that the fastest growth rate was among people over 65. I am guessing that that reflects an increase in longevity.

The church is probably getting older, on average. It would be interesting to see some current birth rate information. It is my understanding that Mormons, like others, are marrying later and having fewer children, but I would like to see some hard stats on that. If there are fewer babies, and older people are increasing in number at the highest rate of any group, then the church is getting older.

Our stake just created a new ward by splitting ours, and dissolving a dead one. The net effect is same number of wards, with long-term effect still TBD.

In typical fashion, the stake officials focused only on balancing # of MP holders. The dissolved ward had no youth, and so our previously healthy ward had its YM/YW program split 50/50. The kids are complaining that they no longer have effective mass for enjoyable activities.

Still to early to say what the effect on "metrics of holiness" will be. Our avg sac meeting attendance seems to hover around 150, in a ward with 470 nominal members. This is just slightly lower than previous to the consolidation.

Stake avg home teaching "numbers" are around 40%, while our ward, prior to the split, was usually above that. No real sense yet of how we're doing, since it's still too early to tell, but my gut feel is that we have dropped below the stake average.

My gut reaction on hearing the announcement of the consolidation was that we were taking on a cancer in terms of the number of inactives, losing youth, and doubling the geographic square mileage of our ward.

My parents spoke at the Kingwood Stake Conference, and my mother wrote me in her weekly letter, that the Houston temple is running at only 42% capacity! This was mentioned at the Stake Conference,just as the new temple presidency started that same week, the last week of October. I thought that this figure would interest all here, in regards to the already known fact of low temple attendance. Did you all hear or read about the Samoan temple burning down, it was being remodeled. I don't mention the above to be disrespectful, but just to show the direction Mormonism is going. Thanks, again.

I concur with EnglishSue below. I'm from Croydon, south of London. My ward (Croydon 2nd) had about ninety regular attendees every sacrament meeting in 1988. Shortly before I left to serve my mission in 1989, we were merged with the Caterham branch and renamed Selsdon Ward. It was the largest ward in the stake, with some 130 people attending Sacrament Meeting every Sunday. Throughout my mission, I got regular letters from ward members telling me how many new members were joining -- I remember my bishop writing to me saying that they were having a new baptism pretty much every week. Two years later, when I returned from my mission, normal attendance was EIGHTY, with just a couple of new faces -- all of them recent converts.

Also, during my mission in the brand-new France Bordeaux mission (my companion and I were the second and third missionaries to be sent to the new mission), I also tried to institute a Lost Sheep program, and got from the bishops and branch presidents membership lists. In every case, there were hundreds of names (in the case of Perpignan, over a thousand) with, at most, (Perpignan again) seventy attending regularly and, at worst (La Rochelle) twelve. In La Rochelle, we found there was a good reason why one 'less-active member' wasn't attending any more -- he was dead! I know this because we found his grave in the public cemetery. Very pretty it was too, and distinctly Roman Catholic in style.

I am on an email list from the Philippines Missions where I slaved myself for the Morg 33 years ago. Here is what I got today:

"Over the last two years, the rapid growth in church membership for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in the Philippines has declined with the missionary focus largely on retention and reactivation.

Out of the 49,000 converts who joined the church in 2001 and 2002, only 1,000 remain active," said Dave Brinsfield, former senior missionary for the Manila Philippines mission.

Dark Sparks calculates that at a 2% activity rate. Woo Hoo! The fastest growing church in the world!

My wife got back yesterday from visiting her relatives in Chile. We were discussing this same thing--I made her promise she would 'return and report'.

Seems the big push to close stakes and consolidate units came from the local members, and that some of the more outspoken ones gave Holland a good blast when he asked for their input when he first arrived. That they were tired of multiple callings, division of barely functioning wards, and being made to care for the baptisms of careless misshies. Not to mention being coerced into feeding the little bastards, sometimes once a week.

She said the active members in her home stake--the whole stake--are really just the same ones who were active in her ward when she left 17 years ago. And that many were tired of the load the church has put on them to support their growth on paper.

The famed Perpetual Education Fund has done some good. But it is not a grant, it is a loan that is repaid at interest. And the loan is through a local bank, not directly from the church. But those who take one have to take an additional church calling as well--a young man in her ward who has one has to visit 'inactive'--in all reality never active--youth who are of seminary age and try to drag them back to church..

And Holland hasn't been seen in her part of Santiago for some time. Her words in Spanish were 'nadie ha visto al guatón ese'--nobody has seen the fat guy....

"During the decade of the 1990s, many rapidly-growing churches, including the Adventists, Southern Baptists, Assemblies of God, and numerous Pentecostal groups, reported accelerating growth trends throughout the decade, while The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints experienced persistent trends of decelerating growth. In fact, the LDS Church is one of the few Christian groups with a large missionary program to experience declining growth rates in spite of widening opportunities."

I live in the suburbs of a large city in the Eastern half of the USA. I rode in the support van (with my girl friend) for a large Varsity Scout troop not attached to any particular church in the July Fourth parade. The route was about 3-4 miles and took about 2 hours to travel.

The entire route was lined with people, mostly young families with a few children, mostly decent folks with jobs, a few minorities represented at about the same proportion as live in the area. The newspaper said that attendance at the parade was several hundred thousand. I saw a total of 3 active Mormon families and there are about a dozen who live in the area.

I was impressed with the general goodness and decency of most of the throngs of these people. I realized better than I ever have before why America is such a strong nation; we have so many good people living in this country. I realized that almost all of them at the parade live within the boundaries of our ward. What perplexed me most was why we have been unable to convert a single decent intact family in this area in spite of intense missionary effort in the past decade and beyond. We have a dozen missionaries and a heavy emphasis on missionary work at church. It is one thing to sit in church and talk about missionary work. It is quite another to slowly drive through crowds and crowds of good folks, waving at them and wondering why not a single one of them has accepted the gospel message.

I asked my Baptist girl friend, who I have brought to church a few times and had the missionaries teach, what she thought about this question. She replied; what have you Mormons got to offer them? I responded; the restored true gospel of Jesus Christ, the saving ordinances of the temple, opportunities to serve one another in the ward.

1. Is your music any good? That is the first thing they hear when they walk in the front door.

2. Are your sermons well prepared, insightful and inspiring? Are your "preachers" well trained and good speakers? Do they have anything to say?

3. Are your classes informative, relevant and lively? Are there many different options and an exciting cirriculum?

4. Does your primary really touch the children and do they enjoy going? Are the adults who work with children trained, aware of and willing to deal with abuse issues and do they have CPR training and criminal background checks?

5. Are your teenage youth programs excellent and fun and yet teach the youth to stay out of trouble. Do your youth bring their friends from other churches to your activities without outside prodding?

6. Do you provide summer camps in even one of a variety of areas that might actually attract young people from other congregations?

7. Do you have anything for the additional enrichment of the adult members or do you just expect the active adults to give and give and give some more?

8. Do you support a Scout troop for either boys or girls that is so good that it draws mostly people who are not members of your congregation?

9. Does your ward do anything for the community? Like sports programs, or private schools, or music and dance instruction, or a community center, or organize any support groups or organize any other specific volunteer programs?

10. Does your ward do things that are likely to run people off and irritate them, like a constant emphasis on guilt and shame, always asking for more and not giving anything back?

11. How much is your ward into control? Does it try to dictate everything all the time? Does it treat its adults like children? Does it allow people to be less than perfect and yet help them do better and explore their own paths of spirituality?

12. Do you really care, as a community, about all the other people who are never going to join your church or are they all just going to hell so why bother? (Hiding behind a remote history of persecution is a crutch that allows you Mormons to do this).

13. Is the entire focus of your church to just get every possible person to join it so they can suck everything out of them? Is there anything of substance beyond just belonging and trapping others into the scheme to get yet additional others involved?

I had to admit that our ward was not doing very good. In fact we suck in most areas and we don't do anything in the others. We just can not compete with any of the other churches like this and we don't even try. She told me; then why would anyone want to join your church? Or even consider an honest investigation of it? No one with any sense would join with you Mormons, from what I've seen, unless God hit them up the side of the head with a board. And for some reason God is not going around with a board and smacking people into Mormonism. That is not God's style.

I went to church with her today and I can see exactly what she means. They can answer a resounding yes to almost every one of those questions she posed. I would advise all TBM Mormons to never set your foot into another church with your eyes opened even once, or you will see how ersatz and hollow we are. I can't imagine what my Bishop will have to say when I tell him of my recent thoughts and experiences. I don't know what to do now.

Reading some of the posts here recently regarding the implosion of the Morg made me remember something Charles Didier told us during mission conference.

During my mission in Brazil we had to spend every Thursday "buscando membros perdidos", or, wasting an entire day trying to find inactive members to see if they still lived at the address on their church records.

Charles Didier was the area president at the time. He told us that during any given week, church headquarters in Sao Paulo would get the same number of lost member records as they did convert baptisms... i.e. a net growth of zero. This was in 1985.

Another interesting thing happened during one of my post-mission visits to Brazil. Six or seven years after my mission I ran into a former companion of mine who now lived in the area where we served and was a Bishop. He said he'd be lucky to get 75 people to sacrament meeting in a ward that had over 900 members. Ouch.

My brother is an Stake President on the east coast, and we very rarely talk about the church as part of our agreement. However, last weekend I flew back to see his one son graduate from college and his daughter from high school.

On the way back from the airport he made this comment, “It is people like you that are making my life terrible.” I asked “what people”? He said all these people who are resigning from the church and ones that I have to hold “Courts of Love” for.

His comment was that he receives about 25 resignation letters a month. Over half are from people who have never attended in the area, the rest from inactives. They are holding on an average of one Court of Love each week.

He asked why do people resign in such great numbers? I tried to explain that is was the only way to get peace and quiet from the church. He explained that under the new directives that each person or family that submits their resignation letter must be visited by a Home Teacher or be interviewed by the bishop before they can be released.

I asked why. He stated that the church wanted to know why they are losing so many members. I asked are they going to do anything about once they find out? I love this comment. "Well that will be up to Gordon B Hinckley. Then he went on to say that since they don’t have enough Home Teachers to handle all of these, sometimes it is taking up to 4 months to get them processed.

I gave him an idea of just approving them and send them a letter. He said “I can’t. That would be against church policy". About that time we arrived at his house and the conversation ended.

He can’t understand why people are leaving in such numbers. His stake is down 25% since last year and the inactivity rate is about 40-50%. Now that is according to him. So much for the fastest growing church.

Utah itself seems to be becoming less and less Mormon. The LDS church claims that 70% of the state is LDS, but the county I live in, Davis county, shows something else. Granted, Hill AFB is nearby, but still.

According to officials at my old high school, the amount of LDS students is shrinking all over the county. My graduating class, back in 2001, was said to be about 50% LDS, counting the people who ate drank, and made merry on the weekends and cannot be classified as active Mormons. A trend that my principal reported is that all over the county the amount of Mormon students in the public schools was going down.

This can also be seen by the many, many Protestant and Catholic churches that seem to be growing in abundance, as well as the growing amount of Wiccans, Buddhists, and Muslims in the area.

Also, there are reports of people, some I know, who were devout Mormons that decided to come out of the closet and got thrown on the street by their paranoid parents.

I've been looking forward to the stats in the Stockholders Meeting er, I mean General Conference for several weeks. Looks like the church lost 5 stakes and added 23 districts and has the lowest growth percentage in over two decades! In all of 2002 the church added a whopping 59 wards/branches. How can TBM's (true believing mormons) believe that this is the fastest growing church? Not even close! The growth truly is slowing down. I predict (and I can predict as well as the CEO) that the growth rate in the US will slow to zero within 15-20 years and then the membership will begin to decline. The church has hit it's high note. TBMs believe that radio/TV came for the use of the church. They also believe that the internet also is here to help the church grow. I believe that the internet is what will kill the Great Whore of all the earth. The US membership will decline because of it. As more people become internet savvy in other countries and spread the truth, the membership in those countries will eventually decline as well.

Oaks addressed a Priesthood Leadership session in the Lethbridge Sportplex and he said emphatically that the church was losing more people than it was gaining. He prefaced this remark with a comment that what he was about to say was for the ears of those assembled and not for public discourse or publication. Many people were stunned by this frank admission and later engaged in mental gymnastics trying to rationalize the failure of the members/church in this.

I attended as the EQP (Elder's Quorum President) at the time. It was the priesthood session of a multi-stake regional conference for Southern Alberta. I don't recall the exact date but will do a little research to try and determine it. It was probably about 8-9 years ago and Oaks was the visiting apostle at the time. It is significant that this was already a problem even that far back. Today at least some people are aware of this problem but you have to realize how big of a shock this was to the faithful in pre-internet days.

Of course Oaks was a newer member of the 12 then and likely a little more free with this kind of statistic. He is probably a little more cautious with that kind of info nowadays, keeping his cards closer to his vest.

A few years ago I went to LDS.com and put all the info from the yearly statistical reports in a spreadsheet. They can be found in the May issues of the Ensign which go back to 1973.

One of the stats that is reported is the number of "children of record" baptized each year. I believe the Church defines "children of record" as kids born to members who are on the books.

I ran a calculation where I took the number of "children of record" baptized in a given year and divided that by the number of church members 8 years previous (when most of those kids were born) to see what kind of trend I could see.

In 1981 (the first year the calculation can be made because the Church has been reporting this since 1973) the number of "children of record" who were being baptized expressed as a percentage of total church head count the year they were born was 2.8% It has declined from that high for each consecutive year to an all time low in 2001 of 0.8%

That means that less than a third of the families in the Church are actually baptizing their kids, compared to 1981.

This is a clear and unmistakable trend that really shows how badly the Church is leaking members. If a family can't be bothered to baptize their kid into the One True Church, that family is indeed inactive.

I read a comment posted by Tufus dated July 2002 regarding "The Lost Sheep Program." I went on a mission to Manchester England from 1992-1994 wh

Line	Pixel height	Difference with next value
12000000	37	26
11000000	63	22
10000000	85	20
9000000	105	22
8000000	127	22
7000000	149	21
6000000	170	23
5000000	193	20
4000000	213	23
3000000	236	22
2000000	258	24
1000000	282	23
0	305	15
"shadow"	320	n/a

Year	Total membership that year	% growth achieved over the previous decade
1830	6	---
1840	16865	280983.3
1850	51839	207.4
1860	61082	17.8
1870	90130	47.6
1880	133628	48.3
1890	188263	40.9
1900	283765	50.7
1910	398478	40.4
1920	525987	32.0
1930	670017	27.4
1940	862664	28.8
1950	1111314	28.8
1960	1693180	52.4
1970	2930810	73.1
1980	4639822	58.3
1990	7761207	67.3
2000	11068861	42.6
2006	12560869	23.5 - normalized properly by taking it to the 10/6 power.

Attendance - How many attend soul saving meetings/activities.

In the US, the fastest growing religion is "none of the above."

2006 Church Stats - Reactions

IN-N-OUT to increase stake conference attendance

Record low attendance in Sandy, Utah yesterday.

I know where the "sluffers" go during church time

Manitoba dropped 4.8% between 1991 and 2001

Stake President New Young Adult Ward and Makes Interesting Public Admission

Orwellian Adjustments to LDS Church Statistics

Church publication manipulates graphic to imply continuous growth

Eliminated an entire stake in South Tacoma, WA this year.

Mormons who have left the church are influencing more people away from Mormonism than faithful Mormons are attracting converts

It's getting bad in Brazil too. 20-30 baptisms/mo

Elder Lynn A. Mickelsen said the church is not growing and Gordo is chewing people out because of it.

My bishop-brother-in-law said he's getting bombarded by ward members who are losing their testimony

Olympus Cove area in Salt Lake City - Tale of Two Stakes

Montgomery Alabama stake created in 1975

26,670 congregational units = 12.5 million members? I don't think so!

Church Membership Stats that don't add up

Official Church Statistics Indicate Growing Inactivity

LDS Stagnation Reports from the USA

Korea Stagnation

The Mormon Implosion will come from Apathy

Talking about the Censusforth

Where Mormons are -- the stone that isn't rolling forth

Number of church members in the United Kingdom - Obi-Wan Kenobi triumphs over Grievous B Hinckley!

Don't believe what they say about Brazil

The LDS Spin Doctors at work...

A snapshot of Mormon growth

Stats from Chile back "Snapshot of Mormon Growth

Mormon church membership numbers

Dragged to Saturday night General Conference

When the Mormon Church implodes, what will be the reaction of each member of the Board of Directors?

Guess what I heard a STAKE official admit in sac. mtng today?!!

Philippines: 49,000 converts in two years, . . BUT

Before you panic lets think about this

Jamaica fails to form first stake

How many "missing" Mormons?

Splitting ours, and dissolving a dead one

Houston temple running at 42% capacity!

Croydon 2nd Ward, south of London

Philippines - Phastest Growing Church

Jeffrey Holland in Chile - so what?

"Cumorah Report" states church growth declining despite increasing opportunities

LDS vs Internet

My LDS Ward hasn't converted a family in over a decade

Mormon implosion happening in Latin America for some time now...

Mormon implosion happening in Latin America for some time now...

Stake President Flooded with Resignation Requests

LDS high schooler in decline

Lowest growth percentage in over two decades!

Oaks says Church losing more members than it gains

"Children of Record" Baptisms Plummet

"The Lost Sheep Program" - Manchester England from 1992-1994