Last updated 05/30/2011, this documents some of the interaction between Book of Mormon believers and skeptics relating to scientific DNA research on Lamanites and Nephites who LDS faithful believe descended from Middle Easterners centuries ago. Please submit questions and comments at the bottom of this page. Click on this DNA Glossary for quick references and definition of terms.
Click on book cover for more details and reviews of
"Losing a Lost Tribe - Native Americans, DNA and the Mormon Church
"Farewell to Eden: Coming to terms with Mormonism and science"
Wiki-Thomas Murphy for more background
Richard Criddle, active LDS, retired professor of biochemistry and biophysics says, "Faithful Should Relish Findings." Logan Utah Herald Journal - October 10, 2004
"All in all, Southerton should probably be thanked for a book which, though overtly anti-Mormon, brings to the attention of many Church members for the first time some topics that have been a focus of interest among scientists, including LDS scientists for decades."
A few weeks ago I posted some comments about Ugo Perego’s and Scott Woodward’s involvement in a research paper on American Indians. I mention a meeting I had with Woodward, Perego and other scientists at the SMGF - Soresnon Molecular Genealogy Foundation office in Salt Lake back in 2004.
Ugo Perego commented on FAIR - Foundation for Apologetic Information and Research about my RfM - Recovery from Mormonism post and this particular meeting. This is a response to some of his comments.
[SGS RFM post]
When I resigned in 1998 after discovering DNA evidence that American Indians were essentially all descended from Asian ancestors, I was counselled by the Area Presidency to get in touch with Professor Scott Woodward, a “world-renowned DNA expert” at BYU. In a handful of email exchanges that I had with Woodward, in amongst his lengthy molecular apologetics, he admitted that he had found it difficult to talk to other people about the DNA work and that after a few years of struggling he had reconciled most of the issues it raised.
UP (Ugo Perego)
“The use of the word “discovering” is interesting in the opening sentence of Southerton’s remarks. It appears that Southerton deliberately wants to give the impression to those who are unfamiliar with studies in population genetics that he is the one to first discover a genetic link between Native Americans and Asian populations.
It is unfortunate that Perego would read that into my post on RFM. I have never tried to give the impression that I did primary research on American Indians and I have never heard an apologist accuse me of this before.
During the communication exchange between Southerton and Woodward in 1998, Woodward expressed how difficult it was for him to explain DNA related concepts to people (Southerton included) who did not want to understand or put serious effort into understanding the concepts involved. Woodward’s “difficulty” was not in reconciling Book of Mormon issues, but in dealing with people that refused to listen.
Perego’s claim that Scott did not have difficulty reconciling the DNA evidence with the Book of Mormon is incorrect. After discussing the research in an email (12 Aug 1998) Scott said “These are just a few notes about something I have thought and struggled over for a number of years.” The fact that Scott was doing such an extensive DNA study in Peru strongly suggest he had initially held hemispheric views of the Book of Mormon. Back in 1998, almost all Mormons believed that the Lehites landed on the coast of Chile. Even less Mormons knew about the Limited Geography then than they do now. Why would he look in Peru if the Book of Mormon rescuing Limited Geography model centres on Mesoamerica?
My brother in law Campbell Gray (Director of the BYU Art Gallery) spoke to Scott on the phone back in 1998 at the time I corresponded with him. This is what Cam recalled from the conversation in an email he sent me on 1 Sept 1998.
“Scott and I spoke on the telephone for some time last night. I am impressed with him. He is personally aware of the process you are going through and he is eager to continue the discussions – not that he has sorted it all out, but he has come some distance in reconciling the relationship between the evidence and the doctrine. He has also spent some time talking with some of the brethren about the issues. He is convinced that Elder Nelson is not the right person to speak to about the issues. In fact, he was of the opinion until a while ago, that Elder Nelson was the right person, but an LDS microbiologist in another university convinced him otherwise. He, like you, is keen that the information is given to the right people, but he is also aware of how little the Brethren know about this kind of thing and the amount of teaching that would have to take place before the ideas could be accepted. These are issues he is struggling with.”
It is clear from this exchange that Scott Woodward had struggled with the DNA evidence for some time prior to this conversation. He shared my desire back in 1998 to make the Brethren aware of the difficulties that arose because of the DNA. I have retained copies of all my email correspondence with Scott. The entire exchange was cordial. When Scott said that he had found it difficult to talk to people about the DNA work on American Indians he didn’t say it in the context of “people refusing to be serious”. It was in the context of “it doesn’t fit with what many members believe about American Indians.”
Woodward’s emails from 1998 were eventually edited by Southerton and forwarded to LDS Church leaders in Utah, with the objective of hurting Woodward’s teaching position at BYU. This event greatly upset Woodward. When in 2004 Southerton visited Woodward at SMGF, he admitted his earlier intentions and apologized for what he did in 1998. I was present at that meeting.
Perego was present at the meeting but is not aware of a lot of other details of what transpired several years earlier between Scott and me. Consequently his description of the meeting is unreliable.
It was never my intention to have any impact on Scott Woodward’s research position at BYU and I never admitted that. How could I possibly influence BYU and what could possibly be my motive? I hardly knew Scott and our exchange was entirely cordial. I certainly never “edited” Scott’s emails to me. I was involved in correspondence with Area Leaders in Australia and it is possible that during that exchange they requested copies of my correspondence with Scott. If I gave them anything it was not edited and I certainly never sent anything to Salt Lake.
Not long after corresponding with Scott, which became frustrating because he often took several weeks to respond, I contacted several other molecular scientists at BYU in an attempt to get a wider range of opinions and input to discussion about the issue. This is the email I sent.
I am a Senior Research Scientist in the Department of Biochemistry at the University of Queensland, Brisbane Australia. I am also a Latter-day Saint and was until recently serving as a Bishop. A few months ago I came across some DNA research that conflicts strongly with my understanding of Book of Mormon history. I have been communicating with Professor Scott Woodward at BYU about this research. I am writing to you because you are likely to be able to understand the research well because of your molecular experience. I think it will be beneficial for LDS scientists that can appreciate this work to communicate with each other about it.
The research involves RFLP analysis of the mitochondrial (mt) genome of American Indians. The mt genome is used for this type of study because it has a high rate of mutation compared to the nuclear genome. The mt genome is also maternally inherited thus avoiding the complications arising through recombination in each generation. Different mtDNA lineages arise by accumulation of characteristic mutations. These mutations, which can be detected by RFLP or sequencing, can be used to determine the relationships between different human populations.
Over the last 8 years research groups from several labs around the world have been analysing the mtDNA of American Indians. After communicating with several of the leading authors, it is now clear that they agree that in the Americas there are essentially 5 different mtDNA lineages (A, B, C, D and X). The A, B, C and D lineages are also found in Asian populations at low frequencies. They have not been found in Europe. Other lineages such as X6 and X7 have been shown to be derived from the C and D lineages. The X lineage is found at very low levels throughout the Americas and is found at low levels in Europe. It has not yet been found in Asia. The American X lineage is very different to the European X lineage. A paper describing the distribution and phylogenetic analysis of this lineage will be published in the December issue of the American Journal of Human Genetics.
Below are some of the most significant publications in this field. The last three publications describe a genetic link between South Pacific Islanders and South East Asians.
Schurr et al (1990) Amerindian mitochondrial DNAs have rare Asian mutations at high frequencies, suggesting they derived from four primary maternal lineages. American Journal of Human Genetics 46, 613-623.
Merriwether et al (1995) Distribution of the four founding lineage haplotypes in native Americans suggests a single wave of migration for the New World. American Journal of Physical Anthropology 98, 411-430.
Merriwether and Ferrel (1996) The four founding lineage hypothesis for the New World: A critical reevaluation. Molecular Phylogenetics and Evolution 5, 241-246.
Bonatto SL and Salzano FM (1997) Diversity and age of the four major mtDNA haplogroups, and their implications for the peopling of the new world. American Journal of Human Genetics 61, 1413-1423.
Stone AC and Stoneking M. (1998) mtDNA analysis of a prehistoric Oneota population: Implications for the peopling of the New World. American Journal of Human Genetics. 62, 1153-1170.
Hertzberg et al (1989) An Asian-specific 9-bp deletion of mitochondrial DNA is frequently found in Polynesians. American Journal of Human Genetics. 44, 504-510.
Lum et al (1994) Polynesian mitochondrial DNAs reveal three deep maternal lineage clusters. Human Biology 66, 567-590.
Melton et al (1995) Polynesian genetic affinities with Southeast Asian populations as identified by mtDNA analysis. American Journal of Human Genetics 57, 403-414.
The research in these papers strongly suggests that all pre-columbian mtDNA lineages were brought into America over 12,000 years ago. The implication of this is that American Indians are the descendants of Asians. This is reported in a recent issue of a popular science rag (New Scientist, 17th October 1998 pages 24-28). This research conflicts with my understanding of the Book of Mormon. I can't fit the data with the limited geographical model proposed by some Book of Mormon scholars. It only fits with a disappeared into thin air model.
If you have the time to read these papers, I think you would find Scott willing to discuss them with you. Otherwise I would be happy to communicate with you. I will be emailing several other molecular biologists at BYU in the near future.
Dr Simon Southerton
Department of Biochemistry
University of Queensland
During that occasion, Woodward did not “angrily defend” the Book of Mormon, but there was definitely some tension in the room due to what Southerton attempted to do to him in 1998. As I already stated, Southerton admitted to sending communications to LDS leaders in an attempt to purposely hurt Woodward’s academic position at BYU, and said he was sorry for what he did. However, we had a hard time believing that he was sincere in his apologies since his recent book Losing a Lost Tribe contained several innuendos about the nature of Woodward’s work with SMGF, insisting on possible connections with the search for Lamanite DNA evidence.
If Scott was hurt about anything I had assumed it was about me contacting other scientists at BYU and making them aware of the DNA issue. In the meeting with Scott Woodward at SMGF I apologised if my email to those scientists caused him any embarrassment. I did not apologise about his emails to me ending up in the Brethren’s hands. I was not even aware that his emails had reached Utah. Besides, there is nothing in his emails that he ought to be embarrassed about. He was entirely honest and up front.
This is the first time I have been connected with Scott’s tenure at BYU. I think it is very sad that Scott was fired from BYU. What actually transpired and what the true chain of events were we will never know because nobody involved says anything. But it was well known in his BYU department that Scott was very upset about losing his professorship. Scott told members of his ward (he was bishop at the time) that he had met one on one with President Hinckley, and he been asked to stop a line of his research. Was Scott asked to stop working on the DNA lineages from the 6500 Peruvians because it could potentially be embarrassing for the church? Did Hinckley personally intervene to move Scott out of BYU? I think the odds of that are pretty high, given that President Hinckley had tried to suppress other potentially embarrassing information a few years earlier during the Hoffman affair. If I had any impact on Scott’s tenure I think that it is very unfortunate but it is not my fault if the Brethren had him booted out. There can be little doubt President Hinckley was personally involved as he was the Chairman of the BYU Board of Trustees at the time.
Perego seems sensitive about the SMGF being linked to a search for Lamanite DNA. Perhaps this is what President Hinckley was most concerned with. Given the scale of the DNA typing that Scott did so long ago in Peru, it is hard to believe that he was not strongly motivated by the search for Lamanite DNA. He admitted in his emails to me that he was “personally interested in questions concerning the origins of New World populations” and that in that context he was involved in a study in Peru. There were also no “innuendos” in my book Losing a Lost Tribe that the SMGF was hunting for Lamanite DNA. All I say is that the SMGF is collecting a vast DNA database that can be used to trace people’s ancestral homelands. You can read that on the SMFG website.
No one at that meeting (except, apparently, Southerton) recalls any mention of “finding exciting new evidence that supported the Book of Mormon,” particularly with regards to the work done at SMGF, as DNA and family history data collected in the first few years of the project were mainly of Anglo-Saxon extraction. However, references were made about the work of researchers from other universities publishing data that did not fit with the classic “Asian” markers as found among the majority of pre-Columbian groups. In some cases, the hypotheses surrounding their possible presence in the Western Hemisphere are still a matter of dispute (these arguments have already been discussed elsewhere and basically they have been promptly dismissed by those criticizing the historicity of the Book of Mormon).
Perego and I are never going to agree 100% in our recollections of an unrecorded meeting from several years ago. But it is fairly certain that promising evidence of DNA not connected to Asia (i.e. “support” for Book of Mormon) was discussed, whether it was work of the SMGF or other scientists is largely irrelevant. If we discussed the X lineage then this one is now largely resolved. It almost certainly came from Asia (even if no Asian relatives are found) and it has been in the Americas for a very long time. Perego’s paper adds good evidence for this.
[SGS FRM post] “In this paper Woodward helps bury a pile of apologetic trash from both the Mesoamerican (church approved) and Heartland (church still watching) Geographists who have variously claimed in the past that the X lineage came from Israel. The X lineage is conclusively shown to have arrived in the New World thousands of years before the Book of Mormon period.”
None of these studies on Native Americans, including the current one published in January 2009 in Current Biology were designed to address the Lamanite/Book of Mormon issue. Data for this study were collected and analyzed with the objective of shedding new light about the origins of Paleo-Indians; not to identify additional migratory events in the following millennia and the role they may have played in re-shaping the genetic pool already existing in America’s double continent. Therefore, I don’t see how “Woodward” is helping in burying anything here, particularly with regards to Southerton’s personal interpretation of what is considered “church approved.”
If a study is designed to explore the origins of American Indians, it is entirely relevant to questions about the Lamanites. Numerous apologists have banged on about the X lineage being a possible Lamanite link to Israel. I stated back in 2003 that it is not derived from Israel. If the X lineage was present in the New World 15,000 years ago as Perego’s paper shows then it cannot be linked to Israelites, period. Israel didn’t even exist 5,000 years ago.
The ‘truth’ that Israelite DNA (whatever that might be) has not been found in Mesoamerica is public knowledge, a concept that finds Woodward and me with peace of mind. But Southerton is obsessed with the hopeless idea that Woodward and others at SMGF are still searching restlessly for this genetic link so that we can finally reconcile our LDS beliefs and be done with our work!
I am far less obsessed with SMFG than Perego imagines. It is a matter of public knowledge that Keith Crandall recently claimed that there is evidence of Israelite DNA being found in Mesoamerica (FAIR DVD). His claim is misleading, offering false hope to people who trust his judgment. My only obsession is that LDS scholars should be honest in their presentation of the DNA evidence. Perego’s admission that it is now common knowledge that Israelite DNA has not been found in Mesoamerica is refreshing. Unfortunately, these sorts of admissions are rare.
Perhaps the time has come for Southerton to recognize the considerable contribution that Woodward and the SMGF team have brought both to the scientific and the genealogical community, continuing to pursue the initial mission of building a genetic database to be used as a valuable research and humanitarian tool. This database was voted as one of the best genealogical resources available on the internet (for the years 2007 and 2008) out of more than 300,000 genealogical websites by the popular Family Tree Magazine.
Despite Southerton’s continued efforts to discredit the professional integrity of institutions and/or individuals affiliated with the LDS faith, the debate about the origin of Native American populations is still wide open as demonstrated by the great amount of scholarship that scientists from different fields are still producing today. Rather than pick and choose from the scientific literature what fits best with his personal interpretation of the history of the Western Hemisphere, Southerton should attempt his own population genetic study to test the hypothesis for “Lamanite DNA.”
I am surprised at how defensive these comments are. I have never challenged the professional integrity of SMGF. It is a fantastic research project but I don’t see it as my role to promote it. Seeing as my post was on RFM on another topic, I chose not to spend any time promoting the good work of SMGF.
It seems like Perego would prefer that I go away and let LDS scholars say exactly what they want. I should be silent while BYU scholar John Tvedtness claims that the X lineage has been found in Mesoamerica and when BYU professor Keith Crandall claims there is evidence of Israelite DNA in Mesoamerica (2008 FAIR DVD). Meanwhile FAIR scholars should feel entitled to slam Rodney Meldrum for his interpretations.
The origin of the bulk of American Indian populations is not wide open when it comes to the Book of Mormon. We can be very confident that American Indians are largely descended (>99%) from Asian migrants who arrived over 15,000 years ago. There may have been small colonisations from Iceland, Polynesia or China, but these are either minor or still controversial. There is no evidence for any pre-Columbian genetic link with Israel. This might not be a threat to professional apologists who have shrunk the Lehite influence to undetectable levels and disconnected the term Lamanite from genetics. But it is a problem for the vast majority of Mormons who have felt the spirit testify of the presence of the Lamanites among American Indians across the continents and among the Polynesians in the Pacific.
When did the LDS 'truth' that Polynesians descended from Jews begin, and why? - Bruce
Not with Joseph Smith - Simon in Oz
The myth arose in the Pacific. The first missionaries had a hard time with Europeans and a lot more success with Polynesians. Gradually the myth emerged and they were linked to Haggoth. Joseph Smith made no recorded statements about the Polynesians. Brigham Young confirmed that it was "true".
I just found the most amazing book - Emma'sFlamingSword
It was in my parent’s library, and I couldn’t put it down. Page after page it makes the most ridiculous claims about the authenticity of the gold plates. The book,“Those Gold Plates!” was written in 1979 by the apostle, Mark E. Peterson. It is a treasure trove of wacky logic and poor scholarship.
This is what the apostle had to say about the Polynesians. “Latter-Day Saints believe that the Polynesians are descendants of Lehi and blood relatives of the American Indians. For that reason, from the beginning of our church history we have had more than an ordinary interest in them as people.” He continues on for the chapter with, “new knowledge which has been developed show that, without any reasonable doubt, the Polynesians came from America…” Of course he uses Thor and the Kon Tiki as absolute validation of Latter-Day Saints beliefs. It is a hilarious and painful read. What is amazing to me is that this is not some inconsequential apologist spouting off what ever sounds good to him. This is an apostle, a leader, a supposed special witness claiming, “new knowledge likewise bears testimony that both Nephites and Lamanites emigrated from America to Polynesia..”
Painful Peterson - Simon in Oz
I was a couple of years off going on my mission when that was published. It was common then for leaders to claim scientific evidence supported church belief. When we were taught by the missionaries in 1970 we were shown filmstrips showing the compelling archaeological evidence for the Book of Mormon. We were repeatedly told about the inspirational voyages of Thor Heyerdahl out into the Pacific. Turns out the guy was an eccentric anthropologist very much on the wacky fringe of scientific research in the territory inhabited by other delusional diffusionists.
Now that the evidence looks so bad they are saying that it is not relevent.
Interestingly, the apologists have essentially ditched the Polynesian - Lamanite connection. You hear nothing about it now.
Weasel words. - Baura
"It appears that Southerton deliberately wants to give the impression"
"with the objective of hurting Woodward’s teaching position at BYU."
"due to what Southerton attempted to do to him in 1998."
"in an attempt to purposely hurt Woodward’s academic position at BYU"
"But Southerton is obsessed with the hopeless idea that"
"continued efforts to discredit the professional integrity of institutions"
He seems to be short on what you have done and long on why you have done it. One way to argue so it ALWAYS comes out in your favor is to impune the motives of the other side. That's what is being done here.
When you can't fault their actions criticize their motives.
I DISCOVERED some more interesting info about Gordon B Hinckley from this post - mootman
All well-placed words, Mr. Southerton. Thank you.
I agree. When I first DISCOVERED the scholarship on DNA as it relates to the BoM, I ran into some interviews with you, and I knew right away who you were, that you were not a primary researcher in the human genetics aspect and that you are a plant DNA guy. And I knew that because that’s what you personally said, and I’ve never heard you represent yourself as saying you did any of the research, but that were qualified to interpret it, which I believe you are. It’s very disappointing to see Perego getting on that pathetic “ad hominem wagon.” I thought Perego had more class than that. It seems like that’s all they can come up with anymore. Sad.
And why is Perego so interested in speaking for Woodward? There is something not right about that.
It’s really amazing to see those emails that started the ball rolling for you!
I find it very fascinating that you have knowledge of Woodward meeting personally with President Hinckley about these issues. That’s pretty damning because it proves that Hinckley knew about these issues, and just shows ANOTHER instance of Gordon Hinckley’s formidable abilities at deception and obfuscation. This means that beginning in about 1998, Hinckley SURELY was aware that genetic science was closing in on a bullet-proof case against the BoM. Then in 2002, Hinckley says this:
GBH: "That's speculative, that hasn't been determined."
Me: You wish, buddy.
I am going to add this to my list of treacherous zingers Mr. Hinckley has told over the years. (not just your "nice old man" I tell ya)
And I, like you, weary of Mormons’ defensiveness. Why, just tonight I had a little tiff with one of my TBM friends that all started because of his defensive feelings about Mormonism.
There's something about you that makes Perego concerned for the Sorenson group. Why is that? Watch out for that.
Thanks again Mr. Southerton for all your great work.
I was watching a show last night about archeology. One guy specialized in coprolites (fossilized poop). At the site they were excavating (in the US), they found lots of human poop, looking just like it did when it was depositied. The poops date to 14,000 BC. Earlier han they thought for humans. They found bison, mammoth and dog/wolf hair in it, bones, and other stuff. The DNA in it mathces Siberian DNA perfectly.
If the Book of Mormon people were real, where is all their poop? Surely the hundreds of thousands of soldiers doing battle would leave a few piles around, let alone the thriving cities with millions of people in them.
Maybe God changed them so they didn't poop? Constipated!?!
Oh wait, I know, the Book of Mormon people were so righteous, that their shit didn't stink and and it came out like gold. Then the Spanish Conquistadors came and picked it up, melted it into ingots and sent it back to the king and queen.
Mormon apologists at BYU were surprised to read a cover story in the Ensign about the Mormongites in the Book of Mormon written by Jeff Lindsay. Daniel C Peterson, head Mormon apologist has promised a reply in the next BYU Studies Journal.
So, who are the Mormong?
The secret bands of Asian hunters who slipped to the New World in the Wisconsin Ice Age (~13000 B.C.E.) and hid in the hills waiting for the Lehites to come in ~600 B.C.E. and live for 1000 years; after which the remaining Lehites discovered all the Mormong; at this point the Lehites adopted all (100%) of the Mormong legally, making the Mormong legal descendants of Lehi; then, the Mormong undertook a wholesale, instantaneous patricide, leaving only Asian DNA among peoples who are descendants of Lehi throughout North and South America.
RESEARCH TO DATE
Until now, the bulk of human DNA genealogy research has focussed on mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) or Y chromosome DNA (Y-DNA). This is because they have a simple pattern of inheritance. Mitochondrial DNA is passed from mothers to offspring and is used to track female pedigrees, while Y chromosome DNA is passed from father to son and is used to track male pedigrees. Over time, spelling changes in the DNA accumulate and these can be used to build trees of related DNA lineages.
Virtually all American Indians have mitochondrial DNA that belongs to the A, B, C, D or X lineage families, which all originated in Asia over 20,000 years ago. The once controversial X lineage is now acknowledged to be unconnected with the Book of Mormon period. http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon_and_DNA_evidence/Geography_issues/Haplotype_X2a Y chromosomes most commonly found among American Indians fall into three major lineage classes. These are the Q, R and C lineages. The Q and C lineages have been shown to be derived from Asia, while the R lineage is derived from Europe. About 10% of American Indian Y chromosomes belong to the European lineage R.
There are two aspects of the mtDNA and Y-DNA research that give the apologists wiggle room for their pseudoscience.
The apologists are now arguing that a correct interpretation of the Book of Mormon narrative has the Lehites entering large pre-existing populations. Here the apologists argue that by sheer bad luck most, if not all, of the Lehite party’s mtDNA and Y-DNA lineages have been lost. They were swamped out by the DNA of the large pre-existing native populations.
Israelites are related to Europeans and the two groups share similar mtDNA and Y-DNA lineages. Post-Columbus admixture between Europeans and American Indians can be argued by apologists to be possibly derived from Israel.
THE NEXT GENERATION OF HUMAN DNA RESEARCH
Human genetics is shifting its focus to the rest of our DNA, the DNA that resides on our chromosomes. Since the full human genome was sequenced in 2003, scientists have sequenced the entire genome of numerous individuals from Africa, Europe, Asia and the Americas. There are millions of subtle differences in the sequences, most of which are called SNPs (pronounced snips), short for single nucleotide polymorphisms. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_nucleotide_polymorphisms When scientists compared the genomes, they found hundreds of thousands of sequence differences (SNPS) between Europeans, Africans, Asians and American Indians. It is now possible, using a quick DNA test, to reveal hundreds of thousands of SNPs in an individuals DNA.
Both of the apologetic arguments described above will be utterly exposed by current research.
If you are a female and you have no daughters, your mtDNA lineage will not be passed to future generations. The apologists claim that Israelite mtDNA could have been lost this way. In reality, an identical mtDNA will likely be passed on to future generations by your sisters, your mother’s sisters and other closely related women descended from your direct maternal ancestors. The same is true for the men. Because there is this small chance of lineage extinction, the apologists like to claim that the Lehite group might have been VERY unlucky in the “genetic lottery” and their lineages lost.
The odds of losing that “genetic lottery” fall dramatically with the inheritance of chromosomal DNA. Any of your offspring will pass along your DNA as will any of your siblings and any of your close relatives. In the case of Lehi, if there is no chromosomal Lehite DNA then there were no Lehites.
Now that thousands of SNPs that can distinguish American Indian vs European chromosomes have been identified, it is possible to estimate approximately when European DNA entered an American Indians family tree. Imagine for a moment the inheritance of a single American Indian chromosome with thousands of SNPs scattered along it that distinguish it from the equivalent European chromosome. In the generations soon after intermarriage, there will be long stretches of European chromosome and long stretches of American Indian chromosome (see figure below). Over time, as matching chromosomes recombine each generation, the length of the “intact” chromosomes will get shorter and shorter (see generation 20).
Inheritance of European and American Indian chromosomes
A = American DNA
E = European DNA
If European chromosomes entered an American Indian’s pedigree post-Columbus, the length of European chromosomes that are “intact” will be much longer than if the European DNA entered the pedigree several thousands of years ago.
Since there were no Lehites, there won't be any sign of European DNA that arrived several thousand years ago.
Just imagine. American Indians were clever enough to build their massive civilizations and develop their own sophisticated cultures and languages. They didn't need some escapees from Israel to kick their civilizations into existence. How radical.
This piece of tease journalism (Hebrew DNA found in South America) is based on research done on a Native American tribe in South America, that was KNOWN through written historical records to have Semitic ancestors from Spain. They DNA tested the tribe and guess what? They found Semitic DNA. Amazing.
This is why Woodward is so guarded in what he claims. I'm not even going to dignify his claims by digging up the research paper. Woodward knows the one.
Based on that compelling evidence Woodward thinks critics are not justified to claim Jewish DNA isn't found in the Western Hemisphere. Bit like saying since there are Jews living in Manhattan we can't say Hebrew DNA isn't there. OK Dr Woodward, you win. Now we can only claim there is no evidence of "pre-Columbian" Hebrew DNA in the Americas.
You know what's really neat? The technology is now available to DNA profile an individual with mixed ancestry, to determine WHEN they obtained their DNA from the different races. It will be relatively easy to determine whether an American Indian received their European DNA in the last 500 years or if it entered their family tree several thousand years ago. It will then be easy to remove individuals with mixed ancestry from anthropological studies.
The 0.4% of European and African DNA contaminating the current studies will vanish, just like the Lamanites.
I think the biggest shock for me after sorting through all of the historical problems with the church, was more than anything was the realization that I'm not a descendant of Lehi (or Mulek). It's kind of like my special status as a Lamanite was wiped away. When you've grown up your entire life believing and being taught that you are a special people (or cursed people for that matter, dark skin)etc... its kind of a shock to all of a sudden come to different a conclusion.
I've read pretty much every book I can get my hands on, after reading Southerton's book on the DNA research it really made me realize that us native americans are of mongolian descent, not descendants of some tribe of Isreal. Our cultures and languages are so diverse because we have been on this continent for a very long time, somewhere on the order of 10,000 to 15,000 years. Which also proves that there is something wrong with the BoM story, there is no way the number of languages and cultures could have developed over such a short period of time (1000 years, 400AD to 1400AD).
I'm interested to know what others experiences are with regards to this. Have you encountered other native members who are now questioning their "Lamanite" status?
Its funny that this has recently become an issue for me since I've also become more involved in my traditional artwork and I have some members of my extended family who are trying to look for a connection between the myths and legends of the Gitxsan people (and other native tribes) back to the principles, stories and doctrines taught in the BoM. I don't know what to tell them.
I'm an ex-Lamanite too. The DNA issue was the last straw for me. - by Can't log in here
Finding out that DNA showed that I'm not Hebrew necessarily but descended from Mongolian stock made sense, though. People always ask me if I'm Asian. It made me angry, however, to think that I had been duped into believing that the BOM was in any way relevant to my people and their history. I can't believe I ever thought that.
Mormonism is anti-Semitic. Second Nephi 10 and 2 Nephi 25 contains some extremely anti-Semitic passages. Mormons claimed that American Indians are "degenerate Jews". Is this an insult to Jews, or to Indians, or a racist excuse to continue injustices against American Indians? It is neither of the first two options.
Given the behavior of Mormons toward Indians over the years, and the above referenced passages, it is clearly the third option. Perry Armstrong made this point clear around 1900, when he wrote The Sauks and the Blackhawk War. The Mormon claim that Indians are the lost tribe of Jews serves to justify Manifest Destiny. Further, it has been clearly proven (Southerton, 2004) that American Indians are NOT "degenerate Jews"—there is no Jewish DNA among American Indians (unless through recent intermarriage). How did this idea develop?
There were many speculations as to who (or even what) American Indians were, 170 years ago. Viewing the archaeological evidence of what seemed to be a previously higher level of civilization, and seeing the accidental cultural similarities (generally) of matrilineality, monotheism, prohibition of intercourse during menstruation, arranged marriage, seclusion of mother and infant during the first month after childbirth, prayer when the killing of an animal for food, some whites became convinced that American Indians were "degenerate Jews". Several books were written which attempted to prove this theory. The Book of Mormon is one of them. Indian legends of a war between Indians and some evil white people, during which many of the white people chose to become Indian, and the evil white people were killed off, became entwined in their theories. The implications of the presence of some Indian tribes having beliefs and customs resembling Christianity, and lighter coloring of some Indians, was therefore discounted and covered up by their theory run amok. Accusations of great numbers of white children adopted into the tribes became more excuses for warfare with the Indians.
Some Mormon scholars believe that the events described in the Book of Mormon happened in Mesoamerica, with the great civilizations there. The seeds for the great Mesoamerican Civilizations were planted by BLACK West Africans. http://www.crystalinks.com/olmec.html. The legend of Quetzacoatl, as described by Gallencamp (1959), was easily explained by Chapman (1973). This is evidence that one of the missionary monks of St. Brendan made a significant mark in the history of Mexico around 600 AD. Other than the Mormon-established time-line for the events described in the Book of Mormon, there are no parallels between the events and places of the Book of Mormon and Mesoamerican reality.
Was there any pre-Columbian contact with Europe other than the possibility of St. Brendan’s missionary monks? Obviously, the most likely, reasonable, lasting, and logical contact would be with the Vikings. This is most especially true among tribes in the Great Lakes area and to the North and East. Unknown to the recent European invaders, they HAD extensive previous contact with the Vikings. There have been rumors in the white population for hundreds of years that the Vikings made significant explorations and settlement in North America. Thomas Jefferson had questions about this, and initiated a primitive linguistics survey, using word-lists in European languages and Indian languages. He found that the most frequent cognates were between the Indian languages and Russian, a language related to Old Norse.
Most American Indians have denied the Viking invasion because they knew the white man would exploit it because of their disease of racism, and use it to divide the tribes. The white man would not believe it, either, because the Norse who had stayed had assimilated so thoroughly that there was no obvious racially-based evidence. There are many hints and leads on a previous invasion from Europe in Eckert (1992), who creatively wove together from primarily white sources the story of Tecumseh. Some of these white sources were probably same gang of river pirates later discussed in this paper. Tecumseh attempted to organize a resistance against the new European invasion. However, coming from the Shawnee, one of the surviving tribes most profoundly affected, there were too many leftover hostilities for other tribes, such as the Lakota, to join. Tecumseh and his allies were convinced that because an Indian alliance once drove off an invasion of Shemanse (“long knives”—the Shawnee word for white man—referring to swords), that it could again be done.
Could the Book of Mormon be an account of the Viking invasion of North America dictated by a madman who was desperately trying to prove that he was white? It may seem to be radically different way of looking at it, for some. However, it is what others have known all along, but been unwilling to share because the whole issue has so many implications, and because of fear of Mormon anger. Let us review the psychosocial context of the question:
When the Europeans came to North America, many came here with the idea that the land was free for the taking. They believed that they had that right, since the Indians did not use the land intensively, and did not even believe in the concept of individual land ownership. The Indians were, to their lights, inferior and primitive people, and were pagans—heathens—devil worshippers, or, possibly, not even human. The European invaders believed that they had the right through "Manifest Destiny", to take over and make the Indians subject to them (through conversion to their version of Christianity, primarily), or, failing that, to kill them off. The doctrines of Mormonism continue this view-- forced conversion through psychological manipulation, until the individual wants to convert in order to be considered "white". White is good, dark is bad. (3 Nephi 2:14-15, 5:20, 6:12-14, Alma 13:23, Alma 23:15-18, 1 Nephi 8, 1 Nephi 12:21-23, 2 Nephi 5:20-26, Jacob 3:5-9)
Joseph was probably only marginally literate, surrounded by “friends”, particularly Solomon Spaulding, who wanted some Indian contribution to his book presenting his belief that Indians are degenerate Jews. Joseph, given to fantasy, desperate for money, and possibly having further criminal charges hanging over his head, complied with this request. His contributions were altered or obscured extensively. One example of this is: Ether 10:20. “A great city by a narrow neck of land by the place where the sea divides the land” This can be read as either the area between Lake Erie and Lake Ontario, or the Strait of Belle Isle, between Labrador and Newfoundland Island. Another is also in Ether 2:17, which distinctly describes a kayak. Later, the craft is described as something truly bizarre. It is possible that Joseph had the intent of describing the Viking invasion, but Solomon had the intent of proving Indians are of Jewish stock. Other evidence of the power struggle between the two authors will appear in the chapter-by-chapter review of the book.
There are Shawnee echoes in the Book of Mormon. The Ammonites (Alma 27:27-30) are respected as peaceable people. The Shawnee had early contact with Mennonites (Sharp, 2001). The story of hiding silver in a spring, and losing it, appears both in the Book of Mormon, Mormon 1:1 and Shawnee legend. The Gadianton robbers were very similar to a band of river pirates who plagued the Shawnee and gave them a worse reputation than they deserved. This appears in Helamon 6 and 7, as well as other places. The refusal of the US government to deal with criminal acts against Indians certainly makes the US government appear criminal. Eckert also makes a comment about Black Hoof’s band that “went white”-- as did Joseph and family. The Nephite Teancum, who appears in Alma 50 to 62, is clearly modeled after Tecumseh. His protagonists, Amalickiah and brother Ammoron, are also possibly modeled after Tecumseh and his brother Tenskwatawa, who was a survivor of a head injury. There are too many other echoes to call it pure chance.
There are records of the Viking invasion, but we have limited access to them, just like we have limited access to Mormon records. The few fragments that we have access to confirm that the invasion was more extensive than present-day history books recount. From Nabokov (1978) immediately upon landing in Nova Scotia, Thorwald Erikson’s sailors killed eight skraeligs (p. 19) and he was himself killed. Vikings and Indians quickly began trading knives and axes for pelts (p. 38) Indian legends also confirm the Viking invasion. There has been some archaeological evidence. Can this line up with the Book of Mormon? If it does, then the ultimate irony is that the people that Joseph Smith calls stiff-necked Jews were, in fact, "Aryan" pagan Vikings, following a tradition that calls for raping, pillaging, and killing in the name of racial superiority. They later became Christian Norse. Some of these later apostatized. They kept Viking values but paid lip-service to Christianity. These people resisted Christianity, calling it weak, for it demanded a code of ethics that was alien to them, calling for adaptation in the face of oppression, kindness and generosity for those who are less fortunate, and deifying a Hero who chose crucifixion rather than fighting the oppressor in a hopeless war. Another irony is that the Nazis were hoping that a remaining Viking population among the tribes of the Great Lakes region would rise up and help in the war effort. They had already appeared, unrecognized to them, in the author and the Book of Mormon.
The Book of Mormon attempts to claim that Lamanites and Nephites were originally one people. They became two peoples, the Lamanites one dark and evil, the Nephites white and good, soon after arrival. Therefore the Indians have no right to the land, because they gave it up by choosing evil. This right of the Nephites was claimed by later white European invaders (Mosiah 10:12-20). Therefore, Indians have no right to complain of their mistreatment.
In the following discussion, I will go through the Book of Mormon, and present some theories which link the “history” presented in the book to the Viking invasion 980 AD to 1430 AD. It is clearly not the story of events in the very dim past. I also highlight some of the more racist passages.
In 1 Nephi 3 and following chapters, the story of Erik the Red comes to mind. In both stories, the main character kills another man, is exiled, and chooses to go, with his family, to a previously unknown land. It is highly unlikely that Joseph knew of this story through European sources, and, if he did, he certainly would not have chosen to frame it in the context of a people leaving Jerusalem for a land of exile. In 1 Nephi 8, the story of Adam and Eve is retold. However, in this story, the eating of the fruit of the knowledge of racism is seen as good. The sons Laman and Lemuel refuse to eat, and are cast off from the family, ending up assimilating with the Indian people, and becoming dark and sinful. In 1 Nephi 13, there is a rant against the Catholic Church, which failed to look hard enough for evidence of a Viking and Christian Norse invasion. The BlackRobes were particularly culpable, and apparently now acknowledge this. http://puffin.creighton.edu/jesuit/relations/
2 Nephi begins with the landing in these pilgrims’ “promised land”. Later chronology indicates that this might have happened about 1052. In Chapter 5, Laman and Lemuel become dark as a punishment for their sins. In 2 Nephi, Zion (America) is seen as favored by God—any nation that fights America will be punished.
In Jacob Chapter 1, Joseph clarifies his terminology. This clarification will later fall apart, repeatedly, as the plot becomes more convoluted, and be reclarified, as he is reined in by his captors. Enemies, bad people, are called Lamanites, dark people, of various nations. Friends, good people, are called Nephites. In Jacob 1 the Vikings are seen hungering after gold and silver, and become more racist. Jacob 3 is a particularly racist chapter. Jarom 8 characterizes the Nephites as being prosperous because they are good white people.
In Omni 1, later Norse immigrants arrive, and find that the language and culture of the earliest arrivals at Zarahelma had changed. In Omni 5, chronologically around 1320, the Norse Christians predominate among the Nephites, and the remaining Vikings are killed off. In Omni 14, there is a battle in the Land North, called the “Land of Desolation”, probably North of the Strait of Belle Isle. The survivors then apparently returned to the settlement of Zarahelma, possibly somewhere on the St. Lawrence River or the area which is now Southern Ontario.
In Mosiah 1:2-4, there is an attempt to preserve the Norse language, written and oral. In Mosiah 8:8, people looking for the settlement of Zarahelma, probably later Norse arrivals, come across the evidence of a ruined civilization felled by a great battle—possibly very early during the Viking invasion. Later, in Mosiah 10:17-128, as previously discussed, there is an extremely racist justification for war against the Indians. Mosiah 21:26, in confusion characteristic of the BOM, is a repeat of Mosiah 8:8. Mosiah 22:12 describes the obsession with gold and silver characteristic of Europeans. This theme repeats itself multiple times throughout the book. Mosiah 24:4 reports a spread of the Old Norse language—this is confirmed by Thomas Jefferson’s linguistic survey. Indians learn the ways of the invaders, the use of swords and iron, and possibly the use of domesticated animals. There is some indication of horses in N. America, brought by the Norse, reported by Menzies in 1421, The Year the Chinese discovered America (!), in his discussion of a fantastic theory that a Chinese expedition was in that area at that time.
In Alma 3:4, Joseph again becomes racially confused, and his captors re-establish with him the dark is bad and white is good. Alma 4:6 contains a criticism of Norse materialism, and in 10:18-24, a pseudo-prophecy of punishment from God. Alma 13:23 indicates a reining in of Joseph again, that “white is right”. In Alma 17:14, the Norse and Indian roles are probably reversed, as Lamanites are described as robbing and plundering Nephites for gold and silver. Trade of iron for silver and gold probably easily developed into such robbing and plundering behavior.
In Alma 22:19, there is a substantial amount of geographical information. The Cahokian civilization became known to the Norse invaders, and they deposed the king. This was probably acceptable to the people of Cahokia because of the legend of Quetzacoatl. There was significant trade and cultural exchange between them and the Aztecs, which would later be the undoing of the Norse invaders. In Alma 22:30-33, the Land of Desolation is described, North of the Strait of Belle Isle. This is the area that the early Vikings had destroyed at the first landing, killing off the Beothuk living there, and cutting down the trees for timber and firewood for the port settlements on Greenland. In Alma 23, Joseph becomes racially confused again, but his captors again straighten them out. It is clarified that Lamanite’s skin color changes when they convert. In Alma 25:4,8, and 12, there is a consistent theme of punishment of people for the sins of their ancestors, later established as Mormon doctrine, although now officially abandoned.
Alma 31 indicates that the land South was very strongly Indian. This probably refers to the SouthEast present United States and Mexico. This fits in with present-day knowledge that the Cahokians and the Aztecs were wealthy (Alma 31:13-14, & 28), and allied by trade routes and culture. They were a great prize for the Norse invaders, and for the later Spanish, who knew perfectly well where they were going.
Alma 43 describes the disadvantage the Indians had in war with the Norse invaders. By the end of the BOM, the Indians knew enough about the enemy to ally against them, especially since a great number of the Norse Christians had begun to assimilate with the Indian population. The pure-blood Norse, with the discovery of gold and silver, were sliding back into their Viking character. Alma 43:13-14 contains a pseudo-prophecy that the Norse, who were progressively assimilating into the Indian population, would become extinct because of the sin of interracial relations. The land in the area of the Gulf of St. Lawrence becomes a refuge for pure-blood Norse. Alma 47:23-24 is a repeat of 22:19, when a Norseman deposes the king of Cahokia and takes the queen as his wife. There is a resonance here with a legend of Cherokee fighting against the Cahokians, who had a white king. This kingship deteriorates quickly, leading to the destruction of the Cahokian civilization.
In Alma 48, the Norsemen become more evil. By this time, Indians and Norse defectors have the knowledge and technology to defeat them. By Alma 62, Cahokia falls, precipitating the retaliatory end of the Norse invasion by the Aztecs. In Alma 63:5-10, the pure-blood Norsemen, presumably with their haul of silver and gold, build ships and leave, having been cornered into the land Northward, also called the land of Desolation, North of the Strait of Belle Isle. The year was probably somewhere around 1419-1423, according to multiple statements of people with access to Scandinavian sources.
In the midst of this, in Alma 63:14, there is a rebellion among the Norse. Many of them desert to the Indians and foment further Indian anger and war. In Menzies’ book, a factory on Ellismere Island, probably used only during the summer, is described. It would be reasonable to suggest an atrocity happening there, given the intensity of the protest and the following final war. I would suggest the use of Indian slave labor during the summer to melt down the gold and silver for shipment to Europe, abandoning the survivors every fall. Helamon 3:16 discussed the reasons for the downfall of the Norse invaders, positing the mixing of the races as a possible cause. I would suggest hybrid vigor of the mixed Indians, and inbreeding among the pureblood Norse would be a more logical conclusion. Ultimately, however, it was gold and silver hunger, and racism.
Helamon 3:4-6 and 10-11 and Helamon 4:24 discussed the attack on the ecology of the land of Desolation. People built houses of stone because they had no wood. They were logging in other areas for firewood and wood for roofing and shipbuilding. Helamon 3:16 is another racist passage. However, with the deterioration and apostasy of the Norse civilization, there would no longer be any logical reason to present an explanation of skin-color change. Joseph’s voice is strong here. Although the recent theme of the Gadianton robbers runs through this, Joseph may be drawing an analogy between the fate of the Norse invaders and the United States government. The Indians took measures against the Gadianton robbers who were Indian, but the “Nephite” Government ignored the problem. As a result, the Nephite government and the Gadianton robbers became the same thing.
Helamon 5:3 reports many Norse leaving for the Land North, also reported in Alma 63:4. In Helamon 4:5-7 the Norse were apparently driven out of St. Lawrence River valley into the Gulf of St. Lawrence. In Helamon 7:21, there is gold and silver fever among the Norse invaders again. Helamon 10:3 reports that the Norse are plundering and murdering, because of gold and silver fever. Helamon 11:1--there are four years of famine, and the Norse repent—for a while. Helamon 11:24-25—Joseph again gets confused about which group of people is good and which is bad. However, the plot is now too real to ascribe differences in behavior to skin color. In Helamon 12:18-21, there may be a referral back to the legend of the Shawnee silver. It is lost, leave it there, it is cursed. Joseph may also be thinking about his family—that group of people who apparently got exiled from the Shawnee. Helamon 19:24-26--the Norse were outnumbered, and humbled. They received consequences because their behavior was not Christian.
3 Nephi 2:14-15 There is more skin color change. Joseph is back on track with the racist theme. However, later in the chapter there is again confusion about who is good and who is bad. In 3 Nephi 3: 6-10, the pure-blood Norse are given the ultimatum to surrender and mix with the Indians or die. In 3 Nephi 3:23-25 the ecology north of the Gulf of St. Lawrence is devastated. In 3 Nephi 4:1 there is war between the mixed-blood and full-blood Norse. In 3 Nephi 5, the Norse repent—again only briefly. The author claims himself to be a pure descendant of Eric the Red in 3 Nephi 5:20. In 3 Nephi 6, the Norse degenerate with gold and silver fever, and racism.
Fourth Nephi is basically a summary. It took Joseph a while to develop a stable chronology. In V. 20, there was a spread of Christianity among the tribes, in the year 1136. Verses 10 and 20 and 24 and 43 present a common thread of racism. Verse 25 (about 1253), states that there was a resumption of the European concept of individual ownership of property. The Gadianton robbers (year 1352, V. 45) could have been new immigrants—as well as being modeled on the river pirates of the 1800’s. The situation went downhill quite quickly in the 1300’s, and by 1400 their fate was sealed.
Mormon 1:18 This is apparently about the Shawnee story of hiding silver in a spring, but it went down too far and was lost. In Mormon 2:28-29 a treaty granted the Norse all the land north of Belle Isle. There they were isolated, and there was peace. In 3:8, the year 362 (1414), there was renewed warfare sparked by the defection of Norse to the Indians, previously covered in Alma 63:14. In Mormon Ch. 4 they were swept off like the dew, and forced to leave in ships. By 1427 all that were going to leave had left, presumably leaving the mixed-blood Norse to fight it out with the mixed and full-blood Indians and others who proclaimed Indian loyalty. In Mormon 5 there was residual war against mixed-blood Norse.
Ether 2:16 This very distinctly describes a kayak. Yet, a few verses later, the description is obscured by a description of a craft that would not float. In Ether 6:5-12, the passage to the continent went very well, even though the water was rough. According to Indian legends, shortly after the Norse left, a group of people arrived, and were assimilated into tribes deep within the Great Lakes. This book is clearly placed in appropriate sequence in the book.
In Moroni 9:5 Joseph comes clean—apparently feeling guilty over the monstrosity he had helped create. He describes the siege of the Anasazi, who had taken in some Norse Christians. The siege, apparently by the Aztec in revenge for Cahokia, ended in starvation cannibalism. In Moroni 9:9-10 it describes similar conditions on the Greenland colony, where Indian slaves were raped by their masters. When the Norse left, they abandoned the slaves, and possibly the mixed Norse as well. By the time they were rescued by the Inuit and taken to the continent in kayaks, they had also been forced into starvation cannibalism. This has been confirmed by Indian legends, and was touched upon in Ether 2:6. There were worse horrors. This has been speculated upon in the discussion of Alma 63:14.
It is obvious from Joseph’s back-and-forth switching from being Shawnee to being a racist white man that he was still struggling with his conscience and Indian identity while assisting in writing the BOM. By the end of Joseph's life, Thomas Sharp, a journalist in the area, called him an anti-Christ. Winneshiek, a respected spiritual leader from Prophetstown on the Rock (River), listened to him, laughed, and told him that he was crazy. Fr. John George Alleman, a Catholic priest who passed through Nauvoo, and had plenty of opportunities to observe what was going on, called him a scoundrel.
Surrounded by racist whites, Joseph lost all sense of self. This is seen in the incident of "the white Lamanite Zelph", he saw himself as if dead. An Indian alone is not an Indian. Like the Mennonites, Indians are community people. Joseph Smith, in his better moments, knew this, as exemplified in the "Zelph" incident, and in Moroni 9, which denies skin color as a measure of a person's character. As Mormonism dies, people of Mormon cultural heritage might do well to review Moroni 9, and realize that history repeats itself. There is a special irony there.
Some day, people will not be judged by the color of their skin, and Martin Luther King's prophecy will be fulfilled. But that will not happen until the racist heresy that is in Mormonism is abandoned.
Dedicated to the memory of Tecumseh, Winneshiek, Whirling Thunder, Vine Deloria Jr., John Blahna, and all the other heroes who have gone before us. Remembering Joseph Smith, who courageously tried to tell our story—perhaps before it was time, and ended up becoming the worst sell-out in American Indian history.
Armstrong, Perry The Sauks and the BlackHawk War I need to get this info.
Chapman, Paul The Man who Led Columbus to America Judson Press Atlanta 1973
Eckert, Allen A Sorrow in our Hearts: The Life of Tecumseh. Bantam Books, New York. 1992
Gallenkamp, Charles Maya the Riddle and Rediscovery of a Lost Civilization David McKay Company, Inc. New York 1959
Menzies, Gavin 1421: The Year China Discovered America Harper Collins, NY, NY 2003
Nabokov, Peter, Ed., with forward by Vine Deloria Native American Testimony Thomas Y Crowell 1978
Roberts, B.H., 'Documentary History of the Church', II:79-80; Manuscript History of the Church, Book A-1:482-83, LDS Church Archives, Salt Lake City.
Sharp, John. E., Gathering at the Hearth: Stories Mennonites Tell Historical Committee of the Mennonite Church, Goshen, Indiana. 2001.
Smith, Joseph and Spaulding, Solomon The Book of Mormon Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints Salt Lake City, Utah multiple editions and revisions available.
Southerton, Simon, Losing a Lost Tribe: Native Americans, DNA, and the Mormon Church Signature Books Salt Lake City Utah 2004.
"President Hafen had the privilege of meeting Elsie Rigby and thanking her for several significant contributions to the college. Her latest gift was $50,000 to establish the Elsie Rigby Lamanite Scholarship and Loan Program. The money would be used for scholarships for South American Indians to attend Ricks and for loans to North American Indians to allow them to attend Ricks while awaiting their governmental education funds. The fund helped many Indian young people attend Ricks."
At BYU, you can still give to the Elsie Rigby fund for "Lamanite and Foreign Students"
"The University also boasts its own popular performing group. The Lamanite Generation, comprised of Native Americans, Hispanic, and Polynesian performers..."
A LDS Church hymnal published in December 1928 under copyright dated 1927 by Pres. Heber J. Grant on behalf of the LDS Church). It's as official as they come (at least at that time). I've only thumbed through it quickly, but found these two (now discontinued) hymns discussing the Mormon view of "the Red Man." Click here to see digital images of LDS Redman Hymns provided by Rollo Tomasi of the Recovery from Mormonism Bulletin Board.
I know, these songs were products of their "times" but the inherent racism is extraordinary.
Verse 1: "O stop and tell me, Red Man, Who are you, why you roam, And how you get your living; Have you no God, no home? With stature straight and portly, And decked in native pride -- With feathers, paints and brooches, He willingly replied:"
Verse 2: "'I once was pleasant Ephraim, When Jacob for me prayed; But oh, how blessings vanish, When man from God has strayed! Before your nation knew us, Some thousand moons ago, Our fathers fell in darkness, And wandered to and fro.'"
Verse 3: "'And long they've lived by hunting Instead of works and arts, And so our race has dwindled To idle Indian hearts. Yet hope within us lingers, As if the Spirit spoke, He'll come for your redemption, And break the Gentile yoke.'"
Verse 4: "And all your captive brothers From ev'ry clime shall come, And quit their savage customs, To live with God at home. Then joy will fill your bosoms, And blessings crown our days, To live in pure religion, And sing our Maker's praise."
But, wait, it gets even better (this one has 12 verses, so I'll just give you the more interesting ones). The lyrics are by Charles Penrose (member of 1st Presidency under either Smith or Grant) and music by Evan Stephens (Tabernacle Choir director):
Verse 1: "Great Spirit, listen to the red man's wail! Great Spirit, listen to the red man's wail! Thou hast the power to help him in his woe, Thou hast the pow'r to help him in his woe, Thy mighty arm was never known to fail; Thy mighty arm was never known to fail. Great Chieftain, save him from the pale-faced foe! Great Chieftain, save him from the pale-faced foe!"
Verse 6: "The red man ceased, and trembling with delight, For brighter far than the meridian sun, A dazzling vision burst upon his sight -- A glorious angel from the Holy One!"
Verse 7: "'Your prayers are heard, " he said, "and I am here To tell you what will shortly come to pass; Your foes shall perish like the sun-scorched grass.'"
Verse 8: "' The Holy Book your fathers hid is found, Your "Mormon" brothers will the truth reveal; Though troubles press, and all seems black around, Obey their words -- your soul's deep wounds will heal.'"
Verse 9: "'Not many moons shall pass away before The curse of darkness from your skins shall flee, Your ancient beauty [ED. NOTE: i.e., white skin] will the Lord restore, And all your tribes shall dwell in unity.'"
Verse 10: "'The arts of peace shall flourish ne'er to die; The warwhoop and the deadly strife shall cease; Disease shall then depart, and every sigh, And health and life shall flow in every breeze.'"
Verse 11: "'Farewell! remember I was once on earth [ED. NOTE: I guess it's Moroni speaking], And served the Lord of hosts on this fair land, Observed his sacred precepts from my birth, And now I dwell in bliss at His right hand.'"
Verse 12 (the final one): "The angel left and darkness came again, But light and joy dwelt in the Indian's soul, Oh, may the day soon dawn for Ephraim's reign, When all the "glorious land" he shall control."
I know God exists, and that His Son Jesus Christ exist. I know that I was born (full-blood)into the Sioux nation. That is good enough for me. I believe the scriptures; all 4 Standard works.
I looked at that song "Red Man, Who Are You?" and I like it. I could find racism in it I suppose but I don't. And I like being called "Lamanite". I've been to the middle East and have seen many shades of white, olive and brown amongst those Arabs, Egyptians, Iraqui's and East Indians.
I don't believe that Father Lehi was a Pale white man. I believe that the mark of a darker skin color had to be placed upon the Book of Mormon Lamanites for a darn good reason, as times were different back then.
Now a days I am brown by birth and let my attitude and actions (my life) speak to others if I am wicked or righteous. All the quiet miracles in my life and in my family's lives tell me that there is a God out there. And if such scriptures speak of God and Jesus Christ then I believe them to be true.
Thanks to the Mormon Church's very own Church Education System we have these colorful charts which "reveal" the impossibility of people inhabiting "The Promised Land" prior to the arrival of the Jaredites, Mulekites and Nephites.
I have pointed out many times that Mopologists'(Mormon Apologists) "Limited Geography Theory" is invalidated by the LDS doctrine of the literal global flood.
For those who aren't schooled on the subject---modern Mopologists are now admitting, contrary to earlier church leaders' teachings, that people other than the "Book of Mormon people" inhabited the Americas anciently. Mopologists must concede this because of the scientific research which shows that virtually all root Amerind DNA is Siberian/Mongoloid. Mopologists assert that traces of "Lehite" DNA have been obliterated by such things as "founder effect" or "genetic drift." (But those same Mopologists don't explain why the detectable Siberian/Mongoloid DNA strains dating from 10,000+ YBP weren't obliterated by the same causes.)
Since LDS doctrine holds that every human on earth except for those aboard Noah's ark was drowned in the flood, that means that there couldn't possibly have been any Asian-descended peoples alive in the Americas when the "Jaredites," and the later "Lehites," arrived. Thus, according to LDS doctrine, every Amerind living in the Americas when Columbus arrived had to have descended from those "Book of Mormon people."
Some TBMs,(True Believing Mormons) searching for a "loophole" to preserve their faith in the BOM, have proposed that the Asians could have emigrated to the Americas after the flood and before the "Jaredites." That is untenable because the science indicates that the Beringian crossings occurred between 10,000-30,000 years ago.
But there is yet another reason why that theory is untenable---the timeline of world history which the church itself officially publishes. In my 1979 edition LDS Bible, in the Dictionary portion, page 635, is a chronological table listing the "sequence of events in the days of the early patriarchs." The timeline states:
4000 Fall of Adam.
3000 Ministry of Enoch.
2400 Ministry of Noah; the Flood.
2200 Tower of Babel.
This officially-published, "canonized" timeline paints Mopologists into a corner: Since the church teaches that the Flood was literal and global---and also teaches that the "Jaredites" emigrated to the "promised land" shortly after the scattering at the Tower of Babel---then the "Jaredites" would have necessarily arrived at an American continent devoid of human life, circa 2200 B.C.
Good-bye, "Limited geography theory." There simply isn't any "wiggle room," according to LDS doctrine, for any Asian-descended people to have existed in the Americas before the arrival of the "Jaredites." Meaning, that every single Amerind alive should have close DNA ties with Middle Eastern Semites---the same people from whence the "Book of Mormon people" sprang. And those DNA relationships should date to being separated circa 2200 B. C., just like the LDS Bible says they should.
So, where is the evidence of Semite, and specifically Hebrew, DNA in Amerinds?
Timeline of Science
14 BY (billion years) ago - Universe forms
11 BY ago - Star formation begins
5 BY ago - Sun forms
4.55 BY ago - Earth forms
4.5 BY ago - Moon forms
4-3.8 BY ago - microscopic life appears*
2.7 BY ago – eukaryotes appear*
2.5 BY ago – algae make oxygen
2.1 – 1.9 BY – multicellular organisms appear*
1.3 BY ago – fungi appear
1.2 BY ago – worms appear*
1 BY ago – multicellular plants appear
0.8 BY ago – primitive sea animals appear*
0.57 BY ago – trilobites appear
0.54 BY ago – common ancestor of insects and spiders
0.50 BY ago – animals with backbones (chordates) appear*
0.36 BY ago – limbed fish appear*
0.35 BY ago – plants with seeds appear
0.31 BY – animals appear with watertight membranes for reproduction on land
0.31 BY ago – common ancestor of birds and mammals appears
0.27-0.35 BY ago – amphibians appear
0.225 BY ago – dinosaurs appear
0.2 BY ago – four legged animals with synapsid-type skulls appear*
0.065 BY ago – dinosaurs disappear
0.045 BY ago – primates appear*
0.015 BY ago – apes appear*
0.13 BY ago – flowering plants appear
0.008 BY ago - hominids appear*
0.004 BY ago – first tool appears
0.001 BY ago – homo sapiens appear*
0.0001 BY ago (100,000 years ago) – signs of modern man appear, language skills emerge
11,000 - 9,000 years ago - first farming arises in the Middle East
*probable or known ancestors of modern humans
Timeline of Mormonism
In the days, prior to 4000 BC - Earth, Sun created, the first Man is created (each day is a thousand years)
6,000 years ago - Adam and Eve are thrown out of Garden of Eden in Jackson County Missouri. First farming begins.
5,000 years ago - Enoch moves mountains and changes the course of rivers. He also converts lots of people except the descendants of Cain, “for the seed of Cain were black and had not place among them” (Moses 7:22).
4,800 years ago - Global Flood obliterates every living thng except Noah and his family and animals on a wooden boat. They land in the Middle East and spread out from there. NOBODY IS ALIVE IN AMERICA at this time. In fact, no animals are there either.
4,200 years ago - God confounds the languages at the Tower of Babel. Prior to that time, all people spoke the Adamic language. Soon after the Tower of Babel, Middle Eastern people (Jaredites) finally travel to America in sealed wooden barges along with their flocks.
The genes say jew,
your church is true,
The genes be nipped,
you've all been jipped.
The genes say semitic
old Joe was prophetic,
The genes they be asian,
He's a lyin caucasian.
Those siberian genes,
And a language from asia,
Means the church and its means,
Should receive euthanasia. - by activejackmormon
As for Ol' Joe,
The DNA says it ain't so.
When it comes to Lamanites in Polynesia,
Clearly the church has amnesia. - by SL Cabbie
The Human Genome mapped in full
Shows Mormonism to be bull!
From Holy Land
Did the Lamanites hail
Old Joseph Smith
He told the tale
They came a calling
We find that galling!
Say Tom and Boyd
We're all a little
This so-called science
So stick your head
Back in the sand!
Pay no heed
Behind the curtain
And a god you'll be
We are a-certain
But listen to science
Reason and doubt
Then we have ways
To kick you out!
"Strengthen the Faith"
Is what we say
Pay no attention
No DNA from Abraham's loin
The mormon church you must not join. - by Abalone
If the geogrpahy don't fit
just shrink it a bit.
The plates and the genes,
are buried in the beans.
(Referring to Smith's hiding the plates in a barrel of beans)
Joseph had problems with T&A,
now he has problems with DNA.
With the gesture of old Obie-Wan,
Mopologists slam the door
on hereditary questioning,
"These aren't the genes you're looking for." by Borty
If the sequence is wrong, tell morgie so long
If the sequence is wrong tell Gordie so long
If the sequence is wrong tell Joseph so long
If the sequence is right anti-mo's must take flight
If the sequence is correct atheism I'll reject
If DNA looks like Jews LDS you must choose
If DNA looks like Jake a choice you must make
If DNA looks like Joe anti-Mormon no mo'
As Semites are, "Lamanites" never were.
As Asians are, they've always been. by zman44
Joe Smith said the Amerinds were jews, but the stones and the bones say Joe lied.
Some scientific thinkers in Joe's day said the American Indians were the lost ten tribes, some scientific thinkers in Joe's day thought the earth was 6000 years old.
M3 came from Africa via Central Asia and got here before Adam or Eve or M130 which from Africa via an Asian coastal route a little later. Linguistic and archaelogiacal studies support the DNA reasearch. Where is the couplet? The same place as the jewish migration baby, there ain't one. ;-) by tanstaafl
If the genes don't fit, you must ex it. by anonymous
DNA? I Believe its right! Where's there a Laminite...who's turned WHITE??? - by Bob
If the genes don't fit then Mormonism isn't it. by MichaelB
Truth is in the DNA, not the BoM or the BoA (to get the meter right, say "bomb" and "B.O.A.").
I don't know much about DNA. I just want you to pay and obey.
DNA is the ultimate geneology. Let's see who's who in the Mormon family tree.
Without DNA, Gordo's got to go away.
DNA doesn't lie. Mormonism's going to die.
DNA speaks: Old Joe was a cheat.
Science gave us DNA. Joseph Smith has had his day.
Lamanites aren't Jewish. Doesn't Joe look foolish?
I believe in DNA. Mormonism can go away. by Nightingale
Whoa is me, all I’ve got is DNA, at least ol’ Joe got a roll in the hay. by Shipley
Joseph Smith had lots to say, 'till his mouth got shut by DNA by Lepor
Don't know any church history.
Don't know arch-ea-ol-o-gy.
Don't know much about the Mormon book.
Don't know much about the French I took.
But I do know, the church is true
And I know that if you'd join it too
What a wonderful Morg this would be.
Don't know much about geography.
Don't know where Shilom should be.
Don't know much about genetic laws.
That's what FARMS and FAIR are for.
But I know that one and one's not two.
And if you'd get your spouse to sign up too
What a wonderful Morg this would be.
Now I don't claim to be an "A" mishie
But I'm trying to be
Because by returning an "A" mishie baby
I can go and get mar-ried.
Don't know much about the D-and-C.
Don't know much about pol-yg-a-my.
Don't know much about a science book.
Boyd K Packer told us not to look.
But I do know, the church is true.
And I know that if you'd tithe us too
What a wonderful Morg this would be.
(Tra la la, repeat chorus.)
"O stop and tell me, Red Man, Who are you, why you roam,
And how you get your living; Have you no God, no home?
With stature straight and portly, And decked in native pride,
With feathers, paints and brooches, He willingly replied:
"I once was pleasant Ephraim, When Jacob for me prayed;
But oh, how blessings vanish, When man from God has strayed!
Before your nation knew us, Some thousand moons ago,
Our fathers fell in darkness, and wandered to and fro.
"And long they've lived by hunting Instead of work and arts,
And so our race has dwindled To idle Indian hearts.
Yet hope within us lingers, As if the Spirit spoke,
He'll come for your redemption, And break the Gentile yoke.
"And all your captive brothers From ev'ry clime shall come,
And quit their savage customs, To live with God at home.
Then Joy will fill your bosoms, And blessings crown our days,
To live in pure religion, And sing our Maker's praise."
I had the good fortune to go listen to Michael Hammer Ph.D, a research scientist from the University of Arizona present on "Origins of Native American Y Chromosome Diversity" on Tuesday 11/12/2003
His concluding summary statements: There is no evidence of any European or Middle Eastern migration to the Americas. The Native Americans migrated throught the Bering Straits approximately 17 to 14 thousand years ago and within a thousand years were living in the Americas all the way to the tip of South America.
Origins of Native American DNA dating back to 45 thousand years ago are found in the Altai and Sayan Mountain regions of lower Siberia near Lake Baikal.
After the lecture I asked him if he had ever been invited by BYU to lecture their on the topic. He said no.
I asked him about the Book of Mormon story. He was aware of it and told me that there is no DNA evidence of any trans Atlantic crossings.
I didn't want to insult his intelligence by asking him what he thought of God cursing naughty natives with dark skins. (LOL)
There were about 250 in attendance and the only other exmo I encountered was Brent Metcalfe who had the following comments to make (my paraphrasing):
1) Science has diminished God's job description greatly. God used to be in charge of the Sun rising and setting, making rain, making people sick, cursing skin color, etc. But now God has much less to do.
2)According to FARMS God was only supervising a small colony of Nephites and Lamanites who have now become genetically extinct. So what does God do with all His spare time now?
3)FARMS has sold their soul to the devil in order to clutch the Book of Mormon as devine by conceding (in their latest Book of Mormon Journals) that DNA evidence shows no Lamanite genes. FARMS now is forced to deny the "prophetic" version of the Book of Mormon which was written "to the Lamanites in the last days." FARMS also by default denies Spencer Kimball and Joseph Smith were prophets with their inspired descriptions of who were the Lamanites.
4)FARMS currently considers the Book of Mormon a spiritual volume about a small group of the Lord's people in the Americas who are now genetically extinct.
I also met up with Joel Kramer from Brigham City who is producing a sequel to his popular Book of Mormon Challenge video/CD. This devastating expose' of the genetic evidence against the BofM has created over 40 thousand requests and overwhelmed Joel and his staff. It is now available in Spanish as well.
Joel is creating a sequel with updated interview of Thomas Murphy and others. Joel was there to request an interview with Michael Hammer.
BTW, Brent and I both scanned the entire group and could not identify one person from BYU or FARMS in attendance. Incidently, I did not notice any Native Americans in attendance either.
* Hammer, Michael F (1991), Associate Research Scientist, Arizona Research Labs; Associate Research Scientist, Ecology & Evolutionary Biology; Associate Professor, Anthropology; BA, 1976, Lake Forest College; PHD, 1984, University of California at Berkeley
How come native origin stories dont refer to Lamanites?
Native tribes are very diffrent from one another there are over 500 diffrent nations of natives in north and south America. and so i find it stupid that they all decended from one tribe called the Lamanites. 10/24/2003 - Moe the Native skid
Editor's note: After receiving this response I posted it, along with my coments in () to the Recovery from Mormonism bulletin board. The comments and feedback this created are now posted here also.
Submission from Soon-to-Be Elder Nall
I read the above response to the Book of Mormon. I know that our religion does not seek to undermine the Native American culture.
(Oh no, like the Indian Student Placement Program which designed to turn your people into "white and delightsome" folks.)
Some of those who have responded make it seem as if we are looking for World Domination, starting with the Native Americans.
(Oh no, not like the Second Jerusalem will be established in Missouri and LDS Church will welcome in Jesus to rule and reign forever.)
They forget that the Book of Mormon also states that the forgotten descendants of the Lamanites will rise to become a great nation once again when they accept the gospel.
(Oh no, like all the tribes will gladly become one nation. Each tribe in very proud to be a separate nation. Native Americans are just stumbling over themselves to join the Morg - yeah right.)
I read a section condemnig the Latter Day Saints for attempting to replace their myths with out own. Well, ours our truth, and as far as replacing their "myths".
(Yes, you finally got one right - LDS myths and fairy tales.)
Well, that reminds me a lot of replacing "the false traditions of their fathers". I am leaving in two weeks to serve a mission to Orlando, Florida. With ALL of the many exciting and beautiful areas to serve, the ONE that keeps me up at night with excitement, is the possibility that I might get to serve on a Seminole Reservation within my mission borders. What a wonderful opportunity to teach this ancient, noble people. The literal descendants of the LAMANITES!!!
(Oh yeah, get ready to be tossed into the Everglades and chomped by gators.)
...... end of post
Do any of you on the board know how the Seminole people have reacted to Mormonism? Conversions or branches for the Seminoles?
Subject: I don't know about white and delightsome skin among the Seminoles...
...but I know they ended up with softer, smoother skin than the Cherokees who got stuck in Arizona. All that humidity in Florida was good for their complexions. Not white and delightsome but tight and handsome for sure!
I've heard stories about some of the Seminoles down there in the backwoods of the Everglades. If I were that missionary I'd be praying for an assignment at Disney World. :-)
Subject: florida seminoles
I would guess the mishies have had more luck with the Oklahoma Seminoles, most bands of those southeast tribes (like mine) who got relocated west assimilated quite a bit.
I've known Seminoles from both areas; yeah, there are some sellouts in florida, but they're unlikely to be good prospects, for the most part. (actually, I think there are 2 or maybe 3 separate seminole bands in Florida, though I'm not positive).
A question though, is whether the florida seminoles PERMIT missionaries to tract there. Reservation land is sovereign territory, and if a tribe decides to refuse solicitation on it's territory, the Missionaries would be violating the law to tract there.
I wouldn't think my Miccosukee cousins would have much tolerance for LDS mishies.
Author: New Mexican
I'd LOVE to see them try this on the pueblos here...
There was a priest that was assigned to the Taos Pueblo and he started telling the good people of TP that they were heathens and pagans...well, the tribal elders weren't too amuzed and nabbed the good father in the middle of the night, stripped him completely and tied him up by the road for all to see. The local law enforcement couldn't do anything because he was on tribal land and the elders wouldn't let anyone in to untie him...
Too funny, actually. The priest got assigned somewhere else once he finally got released.
Subject: Re: Seminole Indian - Mormon prospects - duck for cover
Oh how I remember the Lamanite program. They'd guilt people into taking in these kids - just what an overburdened Mormon marriage needed- MORE kids. This program really added stress to some marriages, and I'm sure it was no picnic for the kids either. One year the Bishop tried to get us to take one but I absolutely refused because I had already observed too many problems with this program. The bishop just wouldn't take NO for an answer until I blew up and told him to take on a kid himself if he felt so strongly about it. That ended the harrassment because they had a ton of kids and his wife would take one either. Duh
Subject: Interesting fact about the Seminole tribe...
Is that they are a relatively "new" tribe, and probably have the least amount of Native American DNA in them.
The Seminole tribe formed after white colonization of the Americas. Native Americans from various tribes (Creek, if my memory serves me correctly, which it may not), escaped slaves, and white settlers came together in the Florida swamps, adopting the Native American way of life (There were a surprising amount of white settlers who defected to Native American tribes, espeically in the early days of colonization).
So most Seminole Indians are tri-racial, putting them even farther from the so-called "Lamanite blood".
I grew up in Salt Lake City. My family never became Mormons, thank God. What Mormons didn't know was that I was 1/8 Creek Indian. They thought I looked a bit "exotic" but because I had white skin, they thought I was part "Greek" and didn't seem to care. My Navajo friends faired worse. In exchange for education, their families sent them off the Res to live with foster families (Mormons). The horrors stories I was told, by the girls, in particular, was just too awful. The Mormons are a fucked up cult, and they are a throw back to CUSTER's time! Sick, sick, sick. - 08/24/2003 - anon
I've always had a problem with the "cursed skin" doctrine in the Book of Mormon. The scientific fact that Native American DNA evidence does NOT in any way support the literal history of the Book of Mormon destroys the credibility of the Book of Mormon. And since the Book of Mormon is touted by LDS Church leadership as the "Keystone" of the LDS faith, once you remove the keystone, the entire structure crumbles. - 05/09/2003 - from giordandelros
Thomas Murphy sent me an e-mail asking for my anecdotal reactions as a Lamanite to the Book of Mormon. Unfortunately, once I got going, I couldn't stop yakking (I think it's the non-Indian blood in me.)
My objections are primarily three-fold, as it occurs to me off the bat. I'll list them in order of how much they annoy me.
First, and primarily, is that it is historically false, and we're told to believe in it very literally. A Mormon doesn't also have to be Indian to be offended when (s)he discovered (s)he's been SUCKERED into believing that something is from God when it was fabricated up by a megalomaniac con artist. So, that reaction is not Lamanite-specific.
Second, is the paternalistic condescending attitude that Mormons use with Indians, regarding "We know who you are and where you came from and the history of your ancestors better than you do." That's Henry Dawes or the "Great White Father in Washington" all over again, treating us like we're imbeciles or little children. It's insulting to our intelligence, and to to our own myths. Even if we know that our creation myths are not factually accurate, we don't appreciate some nonIndian coming in and saying they even get to replace our myths with theirs. Butt out, already!
Third, is the skin-color curse thing. I don't mean to imply that it is less significant than the first two, because it is insidious and cruel. But as a mixed-blood with the whole range of skin colors within my generation (siblings and cousins), it's had far less of a direct impact on my life personally. It is IMMENSELY offensive, but it doesn't take an Indian to see how offensive it is (you would hope).
When it comes to being offended (and I readily admit to a pet chip on my shoulder that I am rather fond of), I think my personal focus is more on Culture than on Race. Most everyone knows and admits that racism is wrong and without evidential basis; however, far fewer people recognize the similar prejudice against other Cultures. I guess this is tangentially related to the skin-color issue. What really sets me off more than the racism of the BoM is the notion of the surviving Indians (Lamanites) being a warlike, bloodthirsty, and savage people. What, like medieval Europe was NOT?
However, this very common FALSE stereotype held by the yonega (anglos) is not limited to Mormons by any stretch. The difference is that Mormons reified this common cultural prejudice, elevating it from folk ignorance & misperception to the status of divinely revealed fact. Being descended from one of the most socially advanced and peaceful ethnic groups found ANYWHERE in the world in the past 500 years (pardon me, my ethnocentrism is showing!), I take GREAT offense at being mischaracterized as the barbaric, as the savage, when I think historical fact puts my people clearly on the OTHER side of that coin relative to Anglo-Germanic / Iberian societies.
Very few things piss me off as much as this false stereotype, which 'delegitimizes' the beauty and greatness of my people's highly advanced social culture. However, I note again: the false stereotype of bloodthirsty savage is not a uniquely Mormon error. Elevating it to religious doctrine is.
Many or perhaps even most historians are finally now reaching the level of intellectual honesty to present the unfiltered facts of Columbus, the man and his journey. A tyrant whose men detested him, who disobeyed direct (Catholic) Church orders against enslaving Indians, who encouraged and gave his men free rein to commit unspeakable atrocities, rape, torture, and murder... The facts of his journals and those of men who sailed with him are indisputable on the facts: that even by the standards of HIS time, Columbus was a despicable, evil, savage, godless murderer. And the Book of Mormon deifies him as being a holy man, led by the Holy Spirit! SICK!!
Some might argue that Columbus is just one man removed from us by 500 years, and therefore inconsequential to how Indians are treated by nonIndians today. But I do not think one can overstate the importance - for good or ill - of cultural symbols, and the gravity or power of symbolism. Symbols are the core, the skelton, to which cultural worldviews cohere. Columbus is undeniably STILL one of the mainstream culture's most enduring and sacrosanct symbols. And to celebrate Columbus -- or Stalin or Genghis Khan or Milsosevic or Pol Pot or Hitler or Idi Amin -- is a GROSS offense to humanity. To say that such barbarity and EVIL - Columbus deserves no better descriptor than evil - was orchestrated by God--as the Book of Mormon says--is "spiritually nauseating" (that is my best atttempt to apply semantics to it).
In terms of his wanting to use my anecdotal reactions of how the Book of Mormon has affected me, well... I'd really like to say something profound or touching or uniquely damning, but nothing occurs to me beyond the ludicrousness (ludicrosity?) of the migration history.
Sure there is the skin-color/ racism thing, but hell, even the most-bleached anglo or scandinavian can express their disgust at that as well as I can. Among my mixed blood relatives, we have such a range of light & dark skins, it never really was much of an issue. Few of us have the 'Hollywood' cigar store image anyway.
I remember the "wild Indians" Jr. Sunday School story, but unfortunately, THAT type of subtle racism is by no means unique to Mormons. "Wild Indians", "Indian Givers", "all Chiefs and no Indians", and other trite cliches... there are many pejorative phrases in the common parlance that go unexamined for how they unconsciously perpetuate & reinforce negative stereotypes, because they've been cliche status for so long.
The only real problem we've experienced as Indian Mormons (or, "part-Indian Mormons" as most mormons seem to insist on classifying me -- apparently because anglos always seem to want their mascots pure blooded) has been when we got old enough to realize that beliefs we take for granted were considered heretical by other 'conventional' Mormons. As a kid I never realized that animism wasn't part of Mormonism, or that we were really syncretic Mormons with some healthy pagan undertones. ;--) But it was never too heretical to keep us from serving in lots of church leadership positions or keep them from accepting our tithing.
There's another side to things, and that is how much in common the social aspect of Mormon life has with tribal life. The communalism, the close knit links and participation with others on so many dimensions. It's really one of the aspects of the Mormon culture that I think is rightfully admired (ethnocentric bias noted). Few religions or fraternal organizations of any kind can foster that depth and breadth of involvement within a tight-knot group. Of course, the irony is that that one positive 'feature' also makes leaving so emotionally difficult, even traumatic.
As a mixed blood BIC (born in the covenant), from a family that had greatly assimilated at least 2 generations before me, I really don't have much intereting to say about the impact of Mormonism on Indians. I think a convert from a less-assimilated background would have much more to contribute to Murphy's work than I do.
OK first of all, some context. I'm mixed blood, just like most Indians are who come from tribes that originated east of the Mississippi (in my tribe's case, 300+ years of intermarriage with whites and blacks). And, I married a non-Indian woman from a very fair skinned genepool, she's blonde as can be, so my kids are fairly light. (And 'delightsome' too, but that has NOTHING to do with their skin color, dammit!)
So, back about a decade ago when I was first doubting, and 'experimenting with inactivity', I'm hanging out at church, they're trying to get the primary kids in the cultural hall to line up for their classes, and a bunch of young boys are being rowdy and noisy (no surprise there). And the Sunday School teacher says, "HEY! Stop acting like a bunch of wild Indians!" To which my son, one of the rowdy ones (but by no means the most rowdy), replied indignantly, "HEY! but I *AM* Indian!"
The teacher, realizing his faux pas, was aghast and embarrassed at what he had said - as he should have been. I said (with a kind smile and chuckle, so he'd know I understood that he felt sorry), "yeah, listen to your teacher -- and make sure you don't act like a bunch of dishonest or thieving whites either!" Tried to do it in as kind & gentle way as possible, since that teacher was a friend of mine, and a good man who simply hadn't ever examined his subconscious false stereotypes.
'Course in fairness, those kinds of derogatory (and false) stereotypes are by no means unique to mormons.
To those of you whose ancestors entered this continent some 30,000 years ago, beginning an epic chapter in the history of mankind filled with glorious diversity, I would like to express my admiration and respect.
I would like also to make you aware of a religious cult who imagined a preposterous mythology to explain your origin, and used it for expansion and profit. This cult is called the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, also known as mormons.
From its beginnings this church has sought to convert Native Americans with lies about their origins, playing on any similarities tribal legends might have with the stories in the book, such as wars, migrations and other events common in any culture.
But please know that in the opinion of the mormon church your ancestors were white, until a section of them became evil and displeased God, upon which they were cursed with darker skin. They called those dark skinned evil people "Lamanites" because they believe that they descend from a fictional evil character named "Laman". They say all of you are the descendants of those Lamanites, which in turn came from a Hebrew family who migrated in boats from Israel before the Babylonian Captivity around 600 B.C.
Mormons have appointed themselves your "saviors", and embarked in a crusade to convert you to mormonism so your skin may turn white and pleasing to their god "again".
Many honest scientists and truth seekers have discovered the true origins of your people, and have debunked the Book of Mormon claims.
I am aware of your recent struggles to regain dignity by protesting the use of old racist slurs against you by sports clubs. I believe that mormons have done much worse: They have invented a fake mythology to claim ownership to your past and to your future. They have called your race "dark and loathsome", and have made billions using that fake Indian history as "proof" of their divine approval.
Since they believe that they are the ones in charge of "gathering Israel" and they consider you part of those Israelite lost children, they see it as their divine duty to replace your culture and traditions with their own.
I was a member of that church and one of the things that woke me up to reality was working with Native Americans and realizing that their nations are nothing like what the Book of Mormon or the early mormon prophets described.
I ask you to do what pride in your heritage demands: Examine the claims of the mormon church and denounce them for their misuse of your race and for creating a fictional history they sell as true, bringing in billions of tithing dollars to their coffers while many Native Americans still live in poverty.
Due to the apologistic stance that the Church has never really taught that native peoples on the American continent are decended from the Lamanites of the Book of Mormon, I found this 2002 Dialog article interesting. The article is titled Correlated Praise: The Development of the Spanish Hymnal by John-Charles Duffy and Hugo Olaiz, and appears in the 2002 compendium, page 89. The article talks about the ill-received 1992 translation-by-committee of the "offical" church hymnal in spanish (Hymnos). I was on my spanish-speaking mission when this re-translation was issued, and I agree with their analysis of it. One thing that caught my eye were the lyrics to a hymn that appeared in Hymnos de Si¨®n (1942), but didn't make it into the new edition:
"La obra ya empieza"
La obra ya empieza
Que prometi¨® Jes¨²s;
Al pueblo Lamanita,
Va la divina luz.
[Now begins the work which Jesus promised; to the Lamanite people goes the divine light.]
"The hymn then speaks of the 'millares que viven en el Sud' [thousands who live in the South] who are of Lamanite blood, and it names Mexicans, specifically, as being among those whom God wills to teach the gospel and save from their afflictions."
Strange, then, that no trace of semitic/middle eastern origin is present in their blood, no? While the Mexican saints were learning fantastic imaginings of a horny New Englander, they were implicated in the death of Jesus when he came to the Americas. I can imagine that this sort of guilt obliged many to join the Church in order to atone for the mistakes of their Lamanite ancestors. Joseph Smith brought the "light of the gospel" to the "Lamanites"; and yet science can now bunk the entire myth.
This hymn was left out of the 1992 edition; just as I suspect that many mentions of Lamanite heritage will be soon purged from all sorts of church documents.
There is a very sick mention to "lamanites" in the Portuguese hymnbook as well. Well, at least in the Portuguese hymnbook pre-1991. They changed the words of many hymns in the 1991 hymnal, and I think that this is one of them. I don't have the current version, but I will never forget the pre-1991 version, as I sang it in the choir several times.
(It is in the hymn "Come Thou Glories Day of Promise")
The fun line said:
Torna o povo lamanita
Agradavel a visao
Se a marca foi predita
Foi tambem o seu perdao
(The Lamanite people will
Once again become delightsome to the beholder
Their curse was prophesised
But so was the eventual forgiveness)
SICK!!!! Lamanites will eventually become white and delightsome again, as long as they pay tithes and offerings, abstain from cappuccinos, buy their underwear from Deseret Inc., stop playing with themselves, and attend three-hour testimonkey meetings every Sunday.
Dear Friends and Colleagues,
A few minutes ago I sent the following open letter to Michael Whiting and all those listed on the Cc line below. You are free to forward this letter to interested parties and to encourage an appropriate response from Dr. Whiting.
January 25, 2003
Dear Dr. Michael Whiting:
I would like to congratulate you on your recent publication in Nature. It appears that your research, if validated by similar studies, will make a valuable contribution to our understanding of the processes of evolution. I am concerned, however, with an abstract of an upcoming BYU campus lecture "Does DNA Evidence Refute the Authenticity of the Book of Mormon?" that appears at the URL addresses below.
The abstract includes gross misrepresentations of researchers, including me, who have argued that genetic evidence collected to date fails to support the Mormon claim of an Israelite ancestry for Native Americans, in part or in whole. I outline the misrepresentations below and request that you correct these errors in the abstract and the presentation or that you facilitate a response from those of us that you have maligned.
The critics of the Mormon claim of an Israelite ancestry for some or all Native Americans include many prominent scholars and scientists. In addition to my presentations at Sunstone, various radio shows, and publications at http://mormonscripturestudies.com and in American Apocrypha, the following individuals have made statements to the press critical of the Mormon claims about Native American ancestry.
Michael Crawford, U. of Kansas
Bryan Sykes, Oxford University
Miroslava Derenko, Russian Academy of Sciences
Neil Bradman, Center for Genetic Anthropology
The conclusions of these scholars have been substantiated in interviews with the following individuals for a forthcoming video, from which selections are available on the web at http://www.mormonchallenge.com.
Stephen Whittington, U. of Maine
David Glenn Smith, U. of California at Davis
Dennis O'Rourke, U. of Utah
Randall Shortridge, SUNY-Buffalo
Simon Southerton, Australian Commonwealth Scientific & Industrial Research Organisation
Simon Southerton, a plant geneticist and former Mormon bishop, has also made a presentation criticizing Mormon claims about Native American and Polynesian ancestry at the Ex-Mormon General Conference, online, and on radio shows in Salt Lake City. Likewise, both Simon's presentations and mine have included dozens of citations from peer-reviewed research in leading scientific journals. You may have other critics in mind but these are the primary ones that I am aware of.
Your abstract claims that our statements and the research that we base them on is "scientifically flawed." After you made similar statements to the press about my article in American Apocrypha I asked you to identify specific studies that you thought were scientifically flawed. While you shared some general hesitations about genetic traces of what you assumed were tiny Book of Mormon migrations, you failed to identify those scholars whose work you think is scientifically flawed. Could you please identify those scholars and their research so that they have an opportunity to reply to such accusations?
As you must surely know, your assumption that the Book of Mormon migrations were small and engulfed by larger populations is plagued with its own set of difficulties. Would you consider acknowledging that the current introduction to the Book of Mormon still claims Lamanites "are the principal ancestors of the American Indians"? What about the claim that the Jaredite migration from the Middle East was to "that quarter where never had man been" (Ether 2:5)? Or, Lehi's claim between 588 and 570 BC that "it is wisdom that this land should be kept as yet from the knowledge of other nations" (2 Ne. 1:8)? What about the multitude of statements from every church president from Joseph Smith to Gordon B. Hinckley that claim a broad Lamanite and Lehite ancestry for Native Americans?
Your abstract claims that our statements and research "represent a basic misunderstanding of the modern methods of DNA analysis." Do you seriously mean to suggest leading researchers like Michael Crawford, Miroslava Derenko, Bryan Sykes, Neil Bradman, Stephen Whittington, David Glenn Smith, and Dennis O'Rourke do not have a basic understanding of the current methods of genetic analysis? Could you specifically identify this "basic misunderstanding" so that they have an opportunity to respond to such a wild assertion?
Your abstract claims that our statements and research "ignore modern historical research in the Book of Mormon studies." How then do you explain my discussion of proposals of a limited Central American geography for Book of Mormon events, commentaries by FARMS, FAIR, and Scott Woodward that appear on pages 60-66 of my article in American Apocrypha? What about my statements to the press, on radio shows, and at Sunstone that take note of the possibility that the Book of Mormon may not require that all Native American have a Middle Eastern origin but that it does require that some do?
Of course, you know that the genetic research to date fails to support either the hemispheric or the regional models of the Book of Mormon. Thus, the statements and research of the non-Mormon scholars are valid regardless of whether or not they are familiar with the field of Book of Mormon studies. Your abstract claims that our statements and research "entirely gloss over fundamental issues in reconstructing historical events via DNA inference." What are those fundamental issues that we gloss over? How were all these non-Mormon scholars able to publish their research in peer-reviewed journals if they ignored such fundamental issues? If I'm guilty of glossing over fundamental issues then how do you explain my acknowledgement of the limitations of genetic research and discussion of various disputes about the genetic evidence that appear on pages 50-51, 53, 55-57 of my article in American Apocrypha? What about the significant attention I devote on pages 64-66 to the limitations noted in publications by FARMS and FAIR?
I am deeply disappointed that someone of your stature in the field would resort to such blatant misrepresentations of my research and that of other leading non-Mormons scholars just to advance a religious agenda. I would like to request that you do one or more of the following things to rectify this problem.
1. The most appropriate thing for you to do at this point is to correct the distortions in your abstract and forthcoming presentation.
2. If you are unwilling to do this then perhaps you would consider inviting one or more of the scholars you are criticizing to join in the panel that will follow your presentation.
3. Finally, you could provide each of the scholars I have listed above and Cc'ed this letter to with a copy of your prepared statements and an oral or audio recording of the presentation and panel so that we may respond in another forum or publication.
As Mormons we face a very disconcerting lack of any substantiating genetic or archaeological evidence for the Book of Mormon's representations of ancient America. I realize that there are legitimate grounds for differing interpretations of the evidence. I also recognize the dilemma that you face as an employee of Brigham Young University. Yet, when Scott Woodward and Bill Bradshaw, also from BYU, have appeared in forums at Sunstone and on Radio West they have shown much more candor about the problems and much more accurately represented the research of other scholars. You do not need to resort to such unprofessional tactics to make your point. I would encourage you to follow the example of your colleagues and resist the intense pressure you must feel to conform to religious dogma.
Thomas W. Murphy
David A. McClellan@byu.edu
As most of us know, a few years back the church revised 2 Nephi 30:6, changing
"...they shall be a white and a delightsome people" to "...they shall be
a pure and a delightsome people."
Well, that doesn't fix the problem of claiming white skin is a sign of righteousness or that dark skins will literally turn white. For example, the current BoM still says:
And their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites (3 Nephi 2:15)
O my brethren, I fear that unless ye shall repent of your sins that their skins will be whiter than yours, when ye shall be brought with them before the throne of God. (Jacob 3:8)
And the change to 2 Nephi 30:6 doesn't get rid of passages that equate dark skin with evil:
And it came to pass that I beheld, after they had dwindled in unbelief they became a dark, and loathsome, and a filthy people, full of idleness and all manner of abominations. (1 Nephi 12:23)
...for this people shall be scattered, and shall become a dark, a filthy, and a loathsome people, beyond the description of that which ever hath been amongst us... (Mormon 5:15)
[Text of dedicatory prayer given by President Gordon B Hinckley on April 30,
2000.] "We remember before Thee the sons and daughters of Father Lehi. Wilt Thou
keep Thine ancient promises in their behalf. Lift from their shoulders the
burdens of poverty and cause the shackles of darkness to fall from their eyes.
May they rise to the glories of the past. " (May 13, 2000 LDS Church News,
Article about new Cochabamba Bolivia temple)
In an interview with the Church News, President [Gordon B.] Hinckley commented on the appreciation of the Ecuadorian members for the new temple?. He noted that "it has been a very interesting thing to see the descendants of Father Lehi in the congregations that have gathered in the [Guayaquil Ecuador] temple. So very many of these people have the blood of Lehi in their veins and it is just an intriguing thing to see their tremendous response and their tremendous interest." [President James E. Faust ?2nd Counselor in the First Presidency in his interview for the Church News] said that the "Latin people have a special quality of softness and graciousness and kindness. They are a great people -- they are sons and daughters of Father Lehi, and they have believing blood. They are a beautiful people, inside and out." (Aug 7, 1999 Church News - Guayaquil Ecuador Temple dedication: 'A wondrous day' for members)
Excerpt of the text of the dedicatory prayer of the Colonia Juaréz Chihuahua Temple, given March 6, 1999, by President Gordon B. Hinckley. "May the sons and daughters of father Lehi grow in strength and in fulfillment of the ancient promises made concerning them. " (Mar 13, 1999 LDS Church News ?Colonia Juarez Chihuahua Mexico Temple Dedicatory Prayer)
I believe "Lamanites" have originated in western China in the Tibet region. I would not be able to distinguish a Tibetan person from a Native American. Most Tibetan people are bhuddist and the Native Americans may have already migrated to the American continent from Tibet before bhuddism spread it`s influence in the area.
Here ia a site to demonstrate my point. Across Tibet's Untamed West
Editor's note: Mr Hunt's claim may or not be scientific. If you have any DNA genetic studies that confirm or negate this claim, please email links to this information to the Lampoon.
From a talk given by Spencer Kimball. And you thought 'ragamuffin' was a word only Mr. Burn's from the Simpsons used.....
May I conclude with this experience of my friend and brother, Boyd K. Packer, as he returned from Peru. It was in a branch Sacrament meeting. The chapel was filled, the opening exercises finished, and the Sacrament in preparation. A little Lamanite ragamuffin entered from the street. His two shirts would scarcely make one, so ragged they were and torn and worn. It was unlikely that those shirts had ever been off that little body since they were donned. Calloused and chapped were the little feet which brought him in the open door, up the aisle, and to the Sacrament table. There was dark and dirty testimony of deprivation, want, unsatisfied hungers—spiritual as well as physical. Almost unobserved he shyly came to the sacrament table and with a seeming spiritual hunger, leaned against the table and lovingly rubbed his unwashed face against the cool, smooth, white linen.
A woman on a front seat, seemingly outraged by the intrusion, caught his eye and with motion and frown sent the little ragamuffin scampering down the aisle out into his world, the street.
A little later, seemingly compelled by some inner urge, he overcame his timidity and came stealthily, cautiously down the aisle again, fearful, ready to escape if necessary, but impelled as though directed by inaudible voices with ‘a familiar spirit?and as though memories long faded were reviving, as though some intangible force were crowding him on to seek something for which he yearned but could not identify.
From his seat on the stand, Elder Packer caught his eye, beckoned to him, and stretched out big, welcoming arms. A moment’s hesitation and the little ragamuffin was nestled comfortably on his lap, in his arms, the tousled head against a great warm heart—a heart sympathetic to waifs, and especially to little Lamanite ones. It seemed the little one had found a safe harbor from a stormy sea, so contented he was. The cruel, bewildering, frustrating world was outside. Peace, security, acceptance enveloped him.
Later Elder Packer sat in my office and, in tender terms and with a subdued voice, rehearsed this incident to me. As he sat forward on his chair, his eyes glistening, a noticeable emotion in his voice, he said, "As this little one relaxed in my arms, it seemed it was not a single little Lamanite I held. It was a nation, indeed a multitude of nations of deprived, hungering souls, wanting something deep and warm they could not explain—a humble people yearning to revive memories all but faded out—of ancestors standing wide-eyed, openmouthed, expectant and excited, looking up and seeing a holy, glorified Being descend from celestial areas, and hearing a voice say: 'Behold, I am Jesus Christ, the Son of God. I created the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are. ?and in me hath the Father glorified his name.'
‘I am the light and the life of the world. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end.'" (3 Nephi 9:15, 3 Nephi 9:18.) (In Conference Report, Oct. 1965, pp. 71-72.)
I'll help FAIR out here and tell the scoop about Lehi:
Lehi was tired of his life in Mongolia. He and his wife sacrificed and traveled many hundreds of miles to be Hebrew immigrants.
There they were adopted into the Hebrew tribe and life was good. He went to a special school there, taught by an Egyptian, where he learned a style of Egyptian that no one else on the planet used.
But alas, Lehi got restless again. This time he went on a bigger journey...across an ocean even.
There he mingled with other people who also happened to be from Mongolia who had entered the New World thousands of years earlier via a different route.
His daughters and sons married these people and some of the children had their pigment changed for a short time.
He brought with him many animals, types of plants and food, and technology from the Hebrew people. But, over time his progeny lost these gifts and destroyed all evidence of their existence. Even through it was difficult, they worked hard to destroy the knowledge and physical evidence of agriculture, metal, linguistics, and domesticated animals.
Over time, his progeny blended in with the other Mongolians and so today, there is no remaining trace that they ever existed.....
(Except for the account from a guy with a very questionable reputation who had a knack for finding credulous folks.)
"The day of the Lamanites is nigh. For years they have been growing delightsome, and they are now becoming white and delightsome, as they were promised. In this picture of the twenty Lamanite missionaries, fifteen of the twenty were as white as Anglos; five were darker but equally delightsome. The children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the reservation."
"At one meeting a father and mother and their sixteen-year-old daughter were present, the little member girl- sixteen- sitting between the darker father and mother, and it was evident she was several shades lighter than her parents- on the same reservation, in the same hogan, subject to the same sun and wind and weather. There was the doctor in a Utah city who for two years had had an Indian boy in his home who stated that he was some shades lighter than the younger brother just coming into the program from the reservation. These young members of the Church are changing to whiteness and to delightsomeness. One white elder jokingly said that he and his companion were donating blood regularly to the hospital in the hope that the process might be accelerated." (Spencer W. Kimball, "The Day of the Lamanites," The Improvemant, Era, Dec. 1960, p. 923)
"When Columbus came, these descendants of the Book of Mormon peoples and those with whom they had mixed numbered in the millions and covered the islands of the Pacific and the Americas from Point Barrow to Tierra del Fuego. …There are nearly 130 million Lamanites worldwide…I rejoice that it has been my privilege to carry the gospel to the Lamanites from the Pacific Ocean to the Atlantic, from the reaches of Canada to southern Chile, and in the islands from Hawaii to New Zealand." - Spencer W. Kimball, “Our Paths Have Met Again,?Ensign, Dec. 1975
Kimball was president of the Church from 1973 to 1985 so this was proclaimed while he was "The Prophet of God."
"With pride I tell those who come to my office that a Lamanite is a descendant of one Lehi who left Jerusalem some 600 years before Christ and with his family crossed the mighty deep and landed in America. And Lehi and his family became the ancestors of ALL of the Indian and Mestizo tribes in North AND South AND Central America and in the islands of the sea, for in the middle of their history there were those who left America in ships of their making and went to the islands of the sea." Spencer W. Kimball, "Of Royal Blood," Ensign, July 1971.
We got into a heated discussion at work today on whether "the church" teaches that all Native Americans, South Americans, etc. are Lamanites. Of course, the new spin from corporate headquarters is that it's just "some peoples' opinion." The AP articles about Murphy's disciplinary council quote Trent Stevens as saying it's just a "traditional view" that every mormon grows up with.
One guy said, "Show me where the church teaches that all American Indians are Lamanites." Well, I can't pass up a challenge like that, so I quickly did a search through the Ensign on lds.org. This was not off any link from an exmo site, anti site or anything else--this is from The Ensign on the official church Web site. My search brought up over 500 articles. Lds.org only goes back through 30 years of Ensigns, but there were articles from prophets, apostles, other general authorities quoting everyone from Joseph Smith to the Book of Mormon, stating that American Indians, etc. were Lamanites.
Okay, if quotes from prophets, printed in the official publication of the church does not constitute "the church" teaching a particular thing, then when does "the church" actually teach anything? Why do we (or did we) waste our time listening to the old windbags or reading the mindless dribble in the Ensign if it is not anything we're supposed to accept as teachings from "the church"?
One line of Kimball's patriarchal blessing states:
"You will preach the gospel to many people, but more especially to the Lamanites, for the lord will bless you with with the gift of language and power to portray before the poeple." At a special Lamanite conference on November 15, 1947 in Arizona, Kimball said: The Indians shall no more be confounded and will be nrought out obscurity and out darkness. But the greatest blessing which will come is that of spiritual light, when their scales of darkness shall begin to fall from their eyes. Only through us, THE NURSING FATHERS AND MOTHERS, may they eventually enjoy a fulfillment of the many promises made to them. Assuming we do our duty to them, THE INDIANS AND OTHERS SONS OF LEHI IN THE ISLANDS OF THE SEA, will yet rise in power and strength.
See Readings in Church History, page 145.
Expect a stream of Mormon doublespeak in coming weeks trying to reconcile Book of Mormon claims that Native Americans descend from Israelites with real-world evidence showing they descend from Siberians and other Asian groups. For example:
This article, covering the DNA problem in the emerging excommunication scandal, summarizes comments by Dr. Trent Stephens, a professor of anatomy and embryology at Idaho State University, as follows:
"The Book of Mormon, Stevens (sic) said, makes no claim that every American Indian descended from the original displaced Israelites. 'Scientific evidence says that's not the case,' Stevens said. But that doesn't mean the Book of Mormon is a fiction."
Actually, it does. Dr. Stephens' response, reflecting the present official Mormon response to the Book of Mormon problem, is inconsistent with the Book of Mormon itself.
The literal Book of Mormon version runs like this: The great flood covered the Earth, including the Americas, and "after the waters had receded from off the face of this land it became a choice land above all other lands." (Ether 13:2) In other words, in the Book of Mormon version of the natural history of America, the entire continent was submerged in the great flood, and uninhabited by humans before the arrival of the Jaredites, circa 2500 B.C.
This explains why there is not a SINGLE encounter between the THREE Israelite groups whose story is recorded in the Book of Mormon (Jaredites, Nephites/Lamanites, and Mulekites) and any truly native Americans: it's because (in the Book of Mormon version) the whole place was uninhabited until the Jaredites arrived. "And it came to pass that they [the newly arrived Jaredites] went forth upon the face of the land, and began to till the earth." (Ether 6:13) And never bumped into ANY of the millions of Native Americans who (in the real-world) inhabited the entire continent in 2500 B.C.?
Note that when real-world exploreres arrived in North America (like Leif Ericson in Vinland, Columbus in the West Indies, or the Pilgrims in Massachussetts) there were always plenty of locals who turned out to greet them, everytime. (Recall that it's thanks to the Indians who befriended the Pilgrims that we just celebrated Thanksgiving.) The archeaological record goes back more than ten thousand years, showing a continuous record of inhabitation. If a group of Israelites HAD actually sailed to North America, they would have met lots of true Native Americans.
It's clear there are two different versions of the natural and cultural history of North America to choose from: the real-world version and the Book of Mormon version. The two simply cannot be reconciled.
DNA extracted from the remains of dogs in Mexico, Bolivia, Peru, and Alaska confirm origins from East Asia: Genes and behaviour show ancient ties for man and mutt. (With credit to Brent Metcalfe for locating this article.)
A few years ago a Mormon guy named James Sorenson with serious money (and willing to put his money where his mouth is) donated millions of dollars to BYU along with a few others for the specific purpose of funding this massive project that would shut the yapping critics up once and for all. They collected hundreds of thousands of samples of blood of as many people from around the world as was possible. The results of this, perhaps the largest DNA study ever performed are not reported anywhere in the scientific literature.
The only report to come out is from the likes of ex-Bishop Simon Southerton, a molecular biologist, who had the integrity to leave the church when he realized the implications.
This study basically demonstrates scientificaly that NO DNA ever made it from the middle east to ancient America. FARMS faces its biggest challenge, not from losers such as the Tanners, or the likes of those who frequent websites like this, but from within the caverns of its own sacred institution.
Now the church is not about to tell this to its members and I think the leaders are going to think twice in the future about the whole idea of any scientific inquiry into any matter that is even remotely related to their religion.
Today I had the opportunity to help with a service project in a Salt Lake valley elementary school. The project is run by a community group (non-religious) which purchases and distributes warm clothing to needy kids. Some of us help out in making sure the kids get the right sizes.
The majority of the volunteers are never-mo's, but a few mo's have helped.
Today, a small mix-up occurred and we were trying to determine which bag of clothes belonged to which kid. An obviously Mo volunteer blurted out, "That one belongs to that LAMANITE BOY!" There was a collective, "Huh?" I jumped in and said, "You mean the Native American boy?"
Only in Moism can this happen! I should have said, "Oh, the Lamanite whose descendents were the wicked people of the Book of Mormon? The one who can become 'white and delightsome' if he follows the gospel? Must not have been good in the pre-existence to be born a Lamanite!"
Not only LDS culture has claimed that Semites have been to the Americas... Homer and earlier than that... the Egyptians claimed to have been to a vast island accross the Atlantic (so big they couldn't see its end) - and there is evidence that Atlantis is in fact the Americas in archeological finds in America. Also there are the Mayan/ Aztec portrayals of light and dark skinned people. There is also the Navajo belief that the Anastazi were light skinned people *not indian*. ARcheology has had a hard time proving that there were both light and dark skinned people in the Americas - the evidence of the writen and oral history says their was. It is a lot along the lines of Jesus Christ - who had no "archealogical" evidence except scripture. If Levi, as the BOM suggested, came through Asia to get to the Americas his clan would have necessarily interbred with Asians. Asian features are not recessive genetically. Northern American Indians look much different from Southern American Indians. There is also imperical data that suggests that there were two distinct types of people in the Americas. The civilizations were very different. the mayan and incas were much more advanced (and perhaps then older) than the Cheroke or Mohecian tribes. Their carvings and etchings are also more advanced and portray different features as you progress north from Southern America.
Most of the archealogical evidence that supports that the Americas was "Atlantis" suggests that it was either Southern America or Cuba. The tales of "white" or light skinned people, as far as I know only extends so high as four corners. But evidence has been found in Southern parts of America. All in all, history is very hard to put together with archealogy. It is much easier to accept scripture than science (because even scientists don't agree on conclusions). I liken this arguement to the fact there is no "hard" evidence that Jesus ever existed except scriptural (second hand) evidence.
Doctrine & Covenants Sections 28, 30, & 32 refers directly to the Lamanites in three places:
DC 28:8 And now, behold, I say unto you that you shall go unto the Lamanites and preach my gospel unto them, and inasmuch as they receive thy teachings, thou shalt cause my church to be established among them...
Who was this revelation given to? Oliver Cowdery, (see verse 1) in Fayette, New York in September of 1830. Hiram Page had a certain stone and professed to be receiving revelation by it. Oliver Cowdery was told not to believe him and was called on a mission to the Lamanites.
DC 30:5-6 Behold, I say unto you, Peter, that you shall take your journey with your brother Oliver...(v6)...for I have given him power to build up my church among the Lamanites.
DC 32:1-3 And now concerning my servant Parley P. Pratt,
behold,I say unto him that as I live I will that he shall declare
my gospel and learn of me, and be meek and lowly of heart.
And that which I have appointed unto him is that he shall go with my servants, Oliver Cowdery and Peter Whitmer, Jun., into the wilderness among the Lamanites.
And Ziba Peterson also shall go with them.....
So we might learn who the Lamanites are by tracing this missionary journey of 1830 to 1831 undertaken by these four men, Oliver, Peter, Parley, and Ziba. They first taught in New York among the Catteraugus Indians, and next in Ohio among the Wyandot Indians, and then in Missouri among the Delaware Indians where they had considerable success. This success was enough to cause the Missourians to become concerned about a possible Mormon-Indian alliance against them, intensifying opposition to Mormonism. The missionary travels of these four men demonstrate clearly that the Lamanites refered to in the Doctrine & Covenants in 1830 included several of the tribes living in the Eastern and Midwestern regions of what was then and still is the United States of America. So why all this galloping off to Mexico?
The hemispheric perspective of the Book of Mormon, the idea that most of the ancestors of the Native Americans living everywhere in the Western hemisphere from Alaska to Chile including areas out in the Pacific were Book of Mormon people, is abundantly established in virtually all of the material generated by the church for the last 150 years and recognized as authoritative; such as prophetic conference speeches and books, official lesson manuals, etc.
To admit that they are all wrong is a profound rejection of one of the most tightly woven strands in the fabric of Mormon doctrine and essentially unravels a significant portion of the theological rug. For Mormon apologists nearly across the board to reject the hemispheric perspective of the Book of Mormon is an implicit admission of defeat and a call for retreat into an even less defensible position.
Another severe problem for those who reject the hemispheric perspective of the Book of Mormon are the 5 million plus Mormon converts in Latin America. First, most of them are not going to swallow this theological adjustment easily since it directly involves their ancestory and enormously decreases their status in the Kingdom.
Second, part of this theology, though not as clearly stated in the scriptures, is the idea expressed by the Prophet Wilford Woodfuff that "the Lamanites shall blossom as a rose on the mountain." The astonishing success of the growth of Mormonism in Latin America is perceived as a fulfillment of this prophecy. If all of those new converts in Latin America are not Lamanites, then they certainly have been masquerading as such. And we must wait for even more astonishing missionary successes among the true descendants of the yet lost tribes of Lehi.
Mormons who reject the hemispheric perspective of the Book of Mormon must not only find the missing Lamanite tribe, but they must also place their progeny in New York, Ohio, and Missouri in 1830 or else they must reject the words of this other body of Mormon Scripture. To reject the very words of the Doctrine & Covenants is frank apostacy.
But never fear. The Principle of Retroactive Revelation will save the day. All the apologist needs to do is insert a few extra words in those three troublesome D & C revelations, such as "you shall go unto THOSE WHO RESEMBLE the Lamanites and preach my gospel..." It has been done before to obscurant problems more prickly than this one. You can't get easy access to an 1831 verson of the Doctrine & Covenants (Book of Commandments) and only some of us wonder why.
Personally, the DNA part wasn't enough for me alone. After all, it's possible that they've made serious mistakes that haven't yet been discovered.
But it's corroborated by other disciplines of science, including archaelogy and linguistics. As you get multiple lines of evidence all converging on the same conclusion, the possibility of error gets smaller.
And more importantly, the source of this information wasn't from anyone with a stake in whether mormonism was true or false (ie; neither apologist nor critic/anti-). It's entirely for the sake of science itself--the DNA research isn't for any religious agenda, it's an attempt to honestly understand our origins and our genetic makeup.
The results of this research will go into giving us better medical technology. If they were to falsify the results for some secret agenda, that would negate any medical value. And that's one of the most compelling reasons to trust it--the lack of bias, and the fact that the results are actively being used in medicine.
That it destroys the premise of the Book of Mormon was a completely unintentional side effect.
(parody and sarcasm intended) The Lamanites fell upon hard times after killing several hundred thousand Nephites in upstate New York. Eventually after years of drought and hunger, they gathered in the area now known as San Francisco where they built a huge fleet of barges (each tight like unto a dish) out of Redwood trees and sailed of to Asia, every last jack one of 'em. After parking their barges somewhere near Vladivostok, the Lord gave their leaders peep stones to guide them back to palestine, where their descendants now live.
Meanwhile several Korean and Mongolian families stumbled upon the barges and sailed to America, where they repopulated the empty continent with a vengeance. Shortly before the arrival of Columbus, Laman and Lemuel appeared in the form of nasty Lamanitish angels and conferred upon the Asian-American inhabitants honorary Lamanite status.
When you know the truth it all fits together tight like unto a dish.
When I first started to research the true history of the morg, I noticed that many sites referred to the Journal of Discourses as well as other well documented sources such as diary entries, etc. Yet, almost every scrap of evidence I read from the morg apologists including Jeff Lindsay was song and dance BS to the extreme. Very seldom did they have any REAL evidence to justify their defense. The morg apologists seem to be masters at BS song and dance. This was the turning point for me. Add to that the contradictions from one prophet to another as well as doctrines that conflict with the BOM and the Bible. After taking a good look at both sides, I just could not buy into the morg fairy tale anymore.
After reading his 50 pages of yuk (if you can get through it, LOL), anyone with any common sense can see that Lindsay fails miserably in his defense. What a bunch of garbage!
DNA Science - Lamanites Conclusions by Jeff Lindsay:
DNA analysis has proven to be a useful tool, but one must understand that it has many limitations. Many inferences made from DNA studies about population origins or demographic events "are often not consistent among themselves or with available linguistic, archeological, and paleoanthropological data" (Tarazona-Santos, 2001). The disagreements over the number of migrations, the peoples of origin, the presence of much variation or little variation in the founding genes (e.g., Ward, et al. 1991 and Torroni et al., 1993c, p. 604) the differences between Y-chromosome and mtDNA results, the challenges with contamination, and the conflicts with linguistic and other evidence, all suggest that much work remains to be done to reliably obtain interpret DNA results.
It is clear that the origins of the Americas are more complicated than previously thought. This applies not only to scientists, but to those who accept the Book of Mormon. Just as scientific progress requires abandoning old errant assumption, increased knowledge about the Americas and improved understanding of the Book of Mormon text itself shows that many Latter-day Saints have incorrectly assumed that the Americas were a vacuum prior to Lehi's arrival, and that Lehi's group provided the primary genetic source for all Native Americas. These errant assumptions should be abandoned, but since the text does not make such claims, all we need abandon is our misunderstanding, not a sacred volume of scripture that is indeed an authentic ancient text.
DNA Science - Lamanites Conclusions Edited by The Lampoon:
"DNA analysis has proven to be a useful tool, and one must understand that it has few limitations. Many inferences made from DNA studies about population origins or demographic events "are more often than not consistent among themselves and the available linguistic, archeological, and paleoanthropological data." The data regarding the number of migrations, the peoples of origin, the presence of little variation in the founding genes, the similarities between Y-chromosome and mtDNA results, the measurable amounts contamination, and the assimilation with linguistic and other evidence, all suggest that rapid progress is being made to reliably obtain and interpret DNA results.
It is clear that the origins of the Americas are more clear than previously thought. This applies not only to scientists, but to those who accept the Book of Mormon. Just as scientific progress requires abandoning old errant assumptions, increased scientific knowledge about the Americas and improved understanding of the Book of Mormon text which shows that many Latter-day Saints have incorrectly assumed that the Americas were a vacuum prior to Lehi's arrival, and that Lehi's group provided the primary genetic source for all Native Americas. These errant assumptions made by the prophets, seers and revelators, Gordon B Hinckley, Ezra Taft Benson, Spencer W Kimball, Joseph Fielding Smith, Brigham Yound and Joseph Smith should be abandoned. Since the text does not make such claims but the modern prophets do, all we need abandon is our common sense, logical reasoning abilities and sense of truth. A sacred volume of scripture that pretends to be an authentic ancient text was in fact invented by Joseph Smith and his cohorts and was born of the frontier myths that Amerindias were of Semitic origin."
It's amazing how intelligent, educated and thoughtful human beings can come to such diversity of conclusions.
I'd suggest that you personally contact President Gordon B Hinckley and gently inform him that his blessing the Children of Lehi during Latin American temple dedicatory prayers is completely out line with your research and conclusions. I am quite cetain that he will be more than grateful to you and may even make mention of his errors in the next General Conference. He may even have you or John Sorenson speak on the issue so as to prevent continued and wide spread confusion among the Amerindian faitfhful in regard to their chosen lineage.
The Apologist's Statement Attempting To Explain The Lack of DNA Evidence Supporting Book of Mormon People's Israelite Origin
"What percentage of Jewish mitochondrial DNA would one expect to find in the twentieth century from a group of about 60 Lehites that arrived in the Americas around 600 BC,finding the land previously occupied by tribes of Asian ancestory?" (a statement phrased as a question.)
Randy Jordan's Reply:
First off, this apologist talks about "Jewish DNA." If an 'anti-Mormon' mentioned 'Jews' in the BOM in a debate, he would be castigated as an ignoramus by the Mormons, and told that the BOM people weren't 'Jews,' but rather 'Hebrews' from the tribe of Joseph.
What the BOM actually says is nothing about other groups that previously occupied the land. There's not a single verse in the BOM that can reasonably be construed to support the idea that 'non-BOM people' occupied the area. The entire theme of the BOM is that God led the people to a 'land of promise', 'into that quarter where there never had man been,' 'which the Lord God had preserved for a righteous people.' (Ether chapter 2.)
After inappropriately assuming that the BOM allows for previous non-Hebrew settlers, the next mistake this apologist makes is trying to reduce down the number of BOM Hebrew immigrants to "60 Lehites that arrived in 600 B. C." The BOM, of course, begins chronologically with the 'Jaredites' arriving allegedly about 2500 B. C. If this apologist assumes that the 'Jaredites' interbred with prior Asiatic settlers, then it's obvious that some trace of DNA evidence should still exist for the Semitic 'Jaredites' among Amerinds, even if, as Ether 15 claims, the entire 'Jaredite' race was destroyed.
Ether 15:2 claims that "there had been slain two millions of his mighty men, *AND ALSO THEIR WIVES AND CHILDREN.*" That obviously implies that the entire race, including women and children, had to have been 2-3 times larger than just the two million soldiers that were killed, which gives us a 'Jaredite' population of 4-6 million. If the BOM occurred in Central America, as today's Mormon apologists claim, that would have necessarily been a major percentage of people for the agriculture and infrastructure of the region to have been able to sustain. If any prior Asiatic settlers occupied the common area, they would have necessarily been a smaller population than the 'Jaredites,' rather than the larger, more dominant culture, as the apologist believes.
That alone makes his argument fall apart.
Joseph Smith himself declared that "Jared and his brother came on to this continent from the confusion and the scattering at the Tower, and lived here more than a thousand years, and covered the whole continent from SEA TO SEA, WITH TOWNS AND CITIES..." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 267.) That statement negates the concept that the 'Jaredites' were just a small immigrant body amongst prior settlers. The population figures claimed in the BOM, along with Smith's claim, imply that they were a vast nation. Smith also asserted that "our western tribes of Indians are descendants from that Joseph who was sold into Egypt, and that the land of America is a promised land unto them" (Ibid, p. 17.) Some Mormons claim that statements of Smith's like these are "unauthoritative" because they were "opinions" and not "revealed teachings." To that, one has to ask, "If you can't trust Smith on statements like these, why trust him on anything?"
The Apologist's Statement:
"Almost all Mormons, including Mormon prophets, have always portrayed the BoM as the history of *all* Amerinds, and that is clearly false, as the DNA evidence for non-Jewish (Asian) ancestors of some American Indians proves."
Two conclusions are possible, although he doesn't discuss them. One is that most all Mormons, including those called to be GAs, being naive about the last hundred years of scientific research about American Indians, have simply been wrong in their unsophisticated generalizations about the BoM. The other is that the BoM is fiction.
Randy Jordan's Reply:
The apologist calls Mormon prophets "clearly false" and "naive." He affirms that modern science since the publication of the BOM has disproved the ideas and claims of those "prophets." Apparently, he has no clue that by undermining the "prophets' " statements about the BOM (particularly Joseph Smith), he is undermining the BOM itself, because the BOM is claimed to have come through the "prophet." You can't impeach the credibility of the producer of an allegedly "true" work, and expect to retain credibility of the work that he produced.
It's certainly true that Mormon prophets (especially Smith) were "naive" about pre-Columbian MesoAmerica. Smith was naive enough to believe that ancient Americans domesticated horses, smelted steel and precious metals, manufactured chariots and steel swords, and many other such anachronisms. All of these anachronisms are found in the allegedly "true" BOM, produced by the "naive" and "clearly false" Smith; so why does the apologist have any more faith in the authenticity of the BOM, than he has in the "naive" and "clearly false" statements of Smith?
Turning to the later "Nephites"----the BOM claims that the "light-skinned" line of them lived at least until circa 400 AD, and that they were destroyed by the "Lamanites" with "skins of blackness," who became today's Indians. Mormon 6 claims that the number of "Nephites" destroyed at the final battle of Cumorah was about 230,000. Obviously, for the conquered faction to have numbered 230,000, the conquering 'Lamanites' would have necessarily had to be at least that number, or greater. Again, that figure negates the idea that the "BOM people" were a small, isolated civilization living amongst others. And, since the Mopologist believes that other non-BOM people were in the area, then obviously the two cultures would have intermarried, and the Hebrew DNA should still be present.
Also, just because 'the Lord' cursed the 'Lamanites', who were blood-brothers of the 'Nephites', with a 'skin of blackness'----did 'the Lord' also alter the 'Lamanite' DNA so that it wouldn't reflect a Hebrew ancestry? If today's Amerinds are descended from the 'Lamanites', as the entire line of reasoning of the BOM dictates, then why doesn't the vast majority of today's Indians contain Hebrew DNA in spades?
One more small point against the apologist's argument is the claim that other groups of Hebrews made the crossing, such as the "Mulekites." That's yet another group to add to potential Hebrew DNA figures.
Bottom line-----for Mormon apoloigists to make even a feeble argument on the DNA subject, they must disregard statements on population figures, buildings, culture, etc., from the BOM itself, and from Joseph Smith. Unfortunately, one cannot "cherrypick", considering only the statements which support their position, and disregarding the ones which do not. The BOM must be proven or disproven on its merits as a whole.
The apologist asked above 'what amount of DNA evidence should we find in the 20th century from the 'Lehites?' To that, I retort, what amount of DNA should we find in the 20th century from the Asiatic Bering-Strait crossers? Obviously, plenty.
Since the Beringian crossings have been estimated at 12,000+ years ago, and their Asian DNA is identifiable, then obviously, any Hebrew DNA in America from only 1,600 years ago should also be detectable. All things being equal, if the BOM Hebrew 'Nephites' lived until at least 400 AD, there should still be detectable DNA among their alleged descendants of Central America, or in the descendants of the 'Lamanites.'
DNA is a relatively young science. I wouldn't hang my hat on it. This little ditty from Nature blows your whole DNA theory out of the water.
http://tinyurl.com/gnjsj - 07/07/2006 - anon
10/12/2000 - a medical/pharmaceutical scientist
"I respect all religions, but have fundamental problems with the role of Joseph Smith, the disparity between his allegations and archaeological history and the entire aspect of tribes of Hebrews emigrating to South America. In addition to missing archaeological and linguistic records, I have never heard of any incidence or prevalence of modern day diseases such as Taye-Sachs, favism or thalassemia among Amerindians. These are prevalent among those close to the Jews genetically. As you might think, I am a medical/pharmaceutical scientist."
08/02/2000 - the shadow - firstname.lastname@example.org
What do O.J. Simpson and the Morg have in common?
They both have more than enough DNA evidence to convict them, yet there are those who still believe he's innocent, and that the morg is really true.
How many True Believing Mormons believed O.J. was guilty due to DNA tests, but can't accept the validity of DNA when it shows the Book of Mormon has nothing to stand on?
08/02/2000 - Danite
If your questions regarding the mtDNA issue have not been satisfactorily laid to rest by the various and excellent posts herein let me suggest two outstanding books neither of which is "anti" Mormon or have anything to do with theology or Mormonism. "Patterns in Evolution" by Roger Lewin is a great introduction to the DNA issue and it deals specifically with the American Indian origins. Then read "Genes, Peoples, and Languages" by Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza. This outstanding book goes into considerably more depth than "Patterns" and it also deals with Amerind origins. If you can read both of those unbiased and dispassionate books and still have any faith left in the BoM then you are more than mind-controlled, you're brainwashed!
07/25/2000 - email@example.com
I am a former Mormon. I had my name taken off the records in March 1981. I currently live with Mormons and have had alot of experience with them. Even modern Mormons with college educations who have been informed of scientific research deny the facts. They only believe what they are taught at church.
Everyone else is lying or mistaken. For example, if they got ahold of the fact that carbon or coal (or whatever it was) sometimes makes dating a problem they'd use that to deny all carbon dating methods. I found a web page today that says DNA evidence proves a Caucasoid population did live in North America in ancient times. This greatly predates the Mormon theory and says that although there was post-Columbus mixing, not all Caucasoids in America came after 1000 AD (Leif Ericson).
Oddly enough this new DNA evidence verifys Plato's description and dating of Atlantis. Philosophy fans will be thrilled! Check it out for yourself and don't be dismayed by the very scientific language. If I can wade through it, you can, too: Global Mitochondrial DNA Variation and the Origin of Native Americans
07/30/2000 - petcrows
Mr. Lindsey has such a page, but it fails to recognize that TG Schurr's work shows it's 12000-36000 ybp (years before present), not 600BC and not 2200BC.
Clearly the Native Americans (north and south) and polynesians came over from east asia and not from the Fertile Crescent or further west. It is also ridiculous to think that a civilization can rise and fall and disperse in a short span of 1,000 years, and left almost no tangible trace of their existence.
Just one more nail in the coffin of the Book of Mormon as historical text.
From the first quotes in Section 3 (Doctrine and Covenants Section 3:17-19) it would appear that there must be on the earth today the descendants of Nephi, Jacob, Joseph, Zoram, Laman, Lemuel, Ismael. For convenience, they are all called "Lamanites" Undoubtedly, all of the descendants of Nephie, Jacob, Joseph and Zoram were killed in those final battles. There were many who dissented over to the Lamanites and it is my firm conviction that the red man today is the descendant of all of these people, though it is possible there could be a heavier blend from Laman and Lemuel.
Now certainly, no offense should be taken by this statement either. In 1836 when the temple was dedicated in Kirtland, the Indians were still in "their wild and savage condition". They were still a rather powerful force in the country. Since that time, of course, they have put down all of their weapons and have ceased their rebellions.
Instead of taking exception at this, the Lamanites should take great joy in the fact that their welfare and conversion and their revival and rebirth were the chiefest concerns of the prophet of the Lord. /s/ Spencer W. Kimball
03/29/2000 - Jonathan
I recently wrote to some people in the BYU zoology & biology departments about the DNA BOM issue. I was amazed to actually receive a response from someone there. Here is their response:
So what do you want me to do with this. It shows one thing, a little knowlege is a dangerous thing. A lot of knowlege may or may not be.
Joseph had available some knowlege, from which he and others assumed a conclusion, none of which are supportable directly from the BoM, that is that the Amerinds are from Isrealite stock, either a little or a lot.
Number two, if they were, they would have come from a small population. So with founder effect, genetic drfit and a myriad of other problems, would make it impossible to sort out if any, some, most or all of them came from Isreal. Trying to prove this is futile at best.
If your testimony of Joseph Smith can be reduced to the status of the american indians, than so what of it. (To be quite blunt).
03/30/2000 - Gavin
You have hit a defensive nerve with your email to this chap. I would suggest that it would be a waste of time discussing it any further with him. His defense relies heavily on implying that your testimony was that weak that a silly little thing like DNA evidence could blow it away. He also knows words like genetic drift and founder effect, so watch out.
He also sees so many problems that you could never hope to get a conclusive answer. I call this the smoke screen response. Make it look like the complications and difficulties are so immense that they will cloud the results. We could never hope to get any meaningful answers from the DNA. This is simply not true.
A good example is some very recent (2000) research on the Black Jews of South Africa. This tribe has some vaguely Jewish customs, and some equally vague oral tradition that their male ancestors came from a place called Sena. They don't know exactly where Sena is, but it seems to be in Yemen, where Jews have been known to live. Other than that, they appear black like any other tribe in the area.
Scientists already knew that Jews have a high incidence of a particular Y-chromosome, particularly those belonging to the priestly class (Cohens). This Y-chromosome is very distinctive, very rare outside of Israel and is regarded by some scientists as a good candidate for the Y-chromosome of Abraham. They simply tested for this Y-chromosome in the black jews and found it straight away at a high frequency. We can now be virtually certain that these people are the descendants of jews.
Some scientists just get on with, having faith that they can actually find answers. Why didn't these scientists sit around worrying about founder effects, genetic drift and the myriad of problems that would complicate the results? Beause they are not the major problems our BYU friends like to make them out to be. Surely we could find traces of the ancestors of several million Jews in America?
08/23/1999 - anon
I long ago concluded that the flawed ethnocentric perspective of the Lehite colonists led to a rather stark dearth of references to "gentile" populations they encountered along their travels.
Like the non-appearances of toilets in U.S. television shows before the 1970s, the mere non-appearance of something in a person's (or culture's) heavily-edited record does not necessarily mean that the specific something does/did not exist.
True, the BoM does not mention either companion populations which the Lamanites and Nephites may have traded with, nor does it mention intermarriage among "gentiles" as among the sins of the Lamanites and apostatizing Nephites. Maybe it happened, maybe it didn't.
But since the purpose of the BoM is to persuade us that Jesus is the Christ, how would enumerating the existence of and relationships among other populations assist that task? Only 1/3 of the BoM plates are said to be translated, and those themselves are a very condensed extract from other massively more volumous records.
Perhaps the sealed portion of the BoM contains such references, and it's the LDS who would not accept their teachings. Seems like the BoM account of all of the reported population turning into "Lamanites" is more of a religious/social/cultural event than it is a racial/ethnic event.
07/21/1999 - Brian
There is nothing, however, that will dissuade the faithful Mormon from his belief in the Book of Mormon as an actual historical record.
When I was a youth I had a member in my ward give me a booklet titled "The Book of Mormon on Trial". It went through various facts that it felt confirmed the validity of the Book of Mormon. Since then, I have heard church leaders discourage reading the book saying "The Book of Mormon is not on Trial".
Of course, what they are saying is the facts do not support the validity of the Book of Mormon. In a talk given by Dallin Oaks, he puts it this way (I paraphrase):
Those who attempt to disprove the Book of Mormon on the basis of archeological facts face a much bigger challenge than they believe. For they not only need to find a people that lived in the Americas that contradicts the Book of Mormon record, they must prove that ALL of the peoples of ancient America do not fit the Book of Mormon record. end of paraphrase.
In other words, the Church no longer claims that the Nephites and Lamanites were necessarily the dominant people of the ancient Americas. This of course explains any inconsistences between archeological finds and the Book of Mormon record. The Church can merely say the archeologists are researching a different people from the Nephites and Lamanites.
When discussing the Book of Mormon with a faithful Mormon, you are not discussing facts. You are discussing his belief system, his very reason for living. It is both wonderful and tragic. Wonderful in that it motivates many members to straighten out their lives and serve their fellow man. Tragic in that a piece of creative fiction becomes a person's only reason for living. All the wonderfulness of life exists with or without the Book of Mormon.
05/16/1999 - anon
Maybe the American Indians did come from Asia. Who says that there weren't people here before Lehi and his family came? Rely on faith. Look at the evidence in Central America (Stella 5). Pray and repent. Read The Book of Mormon, pray about it, and you will always have a good feeling if you have real intent. It is my life.
04/18/1999 - Jogoy
I just got through watching Kundun, a really good film about the youth of the Dalai Lama. All through the film I was amazed at how much Tibetan physiognomy, music, dress, etc. resembled Native American physiognomy, etc. The whole time I watched I thought about our discussions here about Native American DNA and coudn't believe I have lived this long and never really seen such a strong connection between Asians and Native Americans. I have some Mayan friends, and I kept on thinking I was seeing them in this movie--exactly the same facial features, hair, and even similar clothes.
It's amazing that Mormons still use the term "Lamanite" as a common term for all indigenous peoples in the Western Hemisphere--it's so obvious that they have nothing to do with Jews and that they are closely related to Asians. I know my conclusion is a bit less scientific than the mitochondrial DNA links Gazelem has been giving us, but I don't think I need an electron microscope to conclude that the BofM is baloney. Maybe I'll be reconverted if I see a truly repentant Indian convert suddenly turn into a Jew (or perhaps a sinning Jew turn into an Indian--either way will work for me. Until then I'm sticking by my Asian theory.
11/30/1999 - firstname.lastname@example.org
I read over "Anon's" comments regarding the emerging apologetic within Mormonism that the Lehites landed in a Western Hemisphere already peopled with Asian immigrants. The idea, of course, is that the Hebrew blood of the Lehites was somehow lost in a much larger pool of already existing nations.
Early Mormons, however, considered the Indians to be the direct descendents of the Lehites. Abundant references from the preaching of early Mormon prophets leaves no doubt on this matter. As recently as 30 years ago the Mormon Church had an active program called the Lamanite placement program in which Indians were sent to live with members of the church during the school year. The idea was to increase church membership among the Lamanites (a branch of the Book of Mormon people) in accordance with prophecies of early Mormon leaders such as Joseph Smith.
Based on this early interpretation of the Book of Mormon by church leaders, it's hard to view the apologetic argument that there were already many nations in the Americas when Lehi arrived as anything other than ad hoc special pleading. The real clincher, however, comes from the Book of Mormon itself.
Upon arriving in the New World, Lehi describes it thusly:
2 Nephi 1: 7-9:
"Wherefore, this land is consecrated unto him whom he shall bring. And if it so be that they shall serve him according to the commandments which he hath given, it shall be a land of liberty unto them; wherefore, they shall never be brought down into captivity; if so, it shall be because of iniquity; for if iniquity shall abound cursed shall be the land for their sakes, but unto the righteous it shall be blessed forever."
"And behold, it is wisdom that this land should be kept as yet from the knowledge of other nations; for behold, many nations would overrun the land, that there would be no place for an inheritance."
"Wherefore, I, Lehi, have obtained a promise, that inasmuch as those whom the Lord God shall bring out of the land of Jerusalem shall keep his commandments, they shall prosper upon the face of this land; and they shall be kept from all other nations, that they may possess this land unto themselves. And if it so be that they shall keep his commandments they shall be blessed upon the face of this land, and there shall be none to molest them, nor to take away the land of their inheritance; and they shall dwell safely forever."
You cannot get much clearer than that. Lehi described the land, upon his arrival, as having been "kept as yet from the knowledge of other nations." It's hard to buy the arguments of apologists that the New World was full of Asian Americans when Lehi arrived, unless (of course) you realize that the argument was never derived from the Book of Mormon in the first place.
Lately there has been a move afoot within circles of Mormon intellectuals to redefine what the Book of Mormon says. The move is driven directly by the dearth of expected evidence if the Book of Mormon's claims were true. Much of these apologetics are based on premises that directly contradict what the Book of Mormon says. The argument about pre-Lehites belongs in that class.
12/01/1999 - anon
Here's a thought: if the Lamanites are now supposed to be a "small" group, swallowed up in the vast Asiatic gene pool of North/Central/South Amer., how does the church explain the millions of individual described in the BoM as participants in the extended warfare all over the continent? oops!
12/24/1999 - anon
Genetic, linguistic, and archaeological evidence all support the conclusion that some of the ancestors of current inhabitants of Madagascar derived from Indonesia. These people apparently sailed from Indonesia to Madagascar across the Indian Ocean! Interesting that there abundant evidence of an Indonesian migration to Madagascar, but none of a Middle Eastern migration to America?
05/14/2000 - Simon
For those interested in the unfolding story of American Indian DNA, I suggest that you get hold of a copy of the May-June issue of 'American Scientist' It has an excellent article on the mitochondrial DNA of American Indians written by Tad Schurr, a leading scientist in this field. It is pretty easy to understand with pretty pictures n' that. Central America appears strangly devoid of Hebrew Indians.
This is an important development. The research is now in the popular science journals. Next thing you know it will be in the variety liftout of the Sunday papers.
05/05/1999 - Rick asked these questions.
Something I've been wondering about concerning the DNA stuff. Is it possible to distinguish "Hebrew" or "Middle Eastern" mtDNA or Y cs DNA from the traces of "European" DNA found among those people who are about to turn white - or is it Semitic swarthy?
Could some poor desperate farmer argue that they came from Lehi and his wife, or his son's wives' mothers, or would they have to add in a Viking invasion unnoticed by Jewish historians?
I find it strange that there's so many competent mormon doctors who analyze medical evidence all day, and stuff like this doesn't bother them?
05/06/1999 - A Molecularobiologist's Reply
The interesting thing here is that Jews trace their paternal ancestry to one man (Abraham). Jews have a high proportion of a particular Y-chromosome and it is very likely that this is the one inherited from Abraham. Lehi was a direct (paternal line) descendant of Joseph and therefore Abraham. All his sons and the sons of Mulek for that matter (son of King of Judah) would have the same Y-chromosome. Work on the Y-chromosomes of American Indians is still progressing, but all indications to date suggest a common paternal origin in Mongolia or Siberia. While there will be a lot more European contamination, the occurrence of the Jewish Y in American Indians would be a big surprise.
You are right that there are traces of European mtDNA in Native American populations (0.5% in North America). There are likely to be even more Y-chromosomes because the men were a little more efficient at sowing seed. Scientists have not even bothered to try to differentiate the American Indian European mtDNA's from regular European mtDNA's although in many cases it should be possible by comparing control region sequences. The control region is a small portion of the mtDNA that for some reason has a much higher rate of mutation. The result of this is that it is packed with information that can be used to compare very closely related mtDNA's. One scientist is collecting "control region" sequences from all over the world.
In European populations about 99% of the mtDNA types belong to one of ten different types. The most common one is the H type of mtDNA. The fact that all European populations share these mtDNA types means that they existed in the original populations that moved into Europe. Since populations in Europe have to a significant degree been isolated from each other through language barriers, these mtDNA’s in different populations have begun to accumulate population-specific changes. For example it should be possible to determine which European population a particular European H mtDNA came from.
To test where a particular American Indian mtDNA comes from in Europe its control region sequence could be compared to all the European control region sequences in the database. Unfortunately, at this stage you can only determine its origin with a ~ 90% level of confidence. This is because (1) the same mutations may have occurred independently in separate individuals or (2) because there will have been some mixing between populations.
The North American ones will no doubt come up predominantly English, French etc, while the Central and South American ones will be Spanish and Portuguese. Incidentally, the European mtDNA types found so far in North American Native Americans are generally from the groups (out of the 10 European mtDNA's) most common in American Caucasians.
On your point about Mormon doctors just a couple of comments. Most of the DNA research is recent, within the last 5 years. Most doctors are too busy keeping up with the whole field of medicine that they would not have time to look in many research journals. The people most likely to come across this stuff are medical researchers working in the field of human evolution. Not a favoured research field by Mormon's, the vast majority of whom don't actually accept evolution! It is ridiculous that this is still the case today, when the evidence for it is absolutely everywhere.
Scientists are studying the mitochondrial DNA and Y chromosomes of different human populations. These portions of our DNA are ideal to study if you want to trace where human populations have lived. We all (boys and girls) inherit our mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) only from our mother. Us boys only inherit our Y chromosomes from our fathers. Mitochondrial DNA and Y chromosomes don't get mixed up every generation like most of the rest of our DNA (nuclear DNA) which we inherit (50:50) from both our parents. Because it doesn't get mixed up, they are simple to study. In the Y chromosome or mtDNA DNA sequence can be found a record of all the past changes or mutations occurring in that particular sequence. Human populations that have mostly the same changes in their DNA will be closely related. Groups of Y chromosome or mtDNA sequences that are most similar are grouped together and called lineages or haplogroups. Most of the work has been done on mtDNA but the Y chromosome work is catching up.
Scientists in at least 20 research groups around the world have now tested the mtDNA of several thousand American Indians from almost 100 tribes all over the Americas. They have found that there are 5 different mtDNA haplogroups in Native Americans. Of the Indians they have tested about 99.6% have mtDNA that clearly came into the Americas across the Bering Strait over 12,000 years ago. When they compared them to the mtDNA of other human populations they were most similar to groups of people located in eastern Asia particularly people from Mongolia. The 0.4% of American Indians that have another mtDNA lineage are likely to result from interbreeding after the arrival of Columbus. They have found European and African lineages in these people and they more common in tribes that have had more post-Columbus contact
About 500 American Indians have been tested in Central America, including the Maya, and about 99.8% come from Asia. In South America, where they have had less contact since Columbus they have found 100% of those tested (about 500) to be derived from Asia.
Andrew Merriwether's Research Home Page - Evolutionary Relationships Among Native Americans
Newsweek- The First Americans April 1999- Good Summary Of Latest ResearchArchaeology and DNA - The Great DNA Hunt Over The Entire Western Hemisphere
http://www.csi.uoregon.edu/projects/genetics/GSL - Virtual DNA Models
The Great Human Diasporas - The History of Diversity and Evolution
Annals of Human Genetics 1999 Jan; Vol 63, 63-80
An Asian-Native American paternal lineage identified by RPS4Y resequencing and by microsatellite haplotyping.Bergen AW, et al.
Human Biology February 2000, Volume 72, Number 1: Spatial and Temporal Stability of mtDNA Haplogroup Frequencies in Native North America. D.H. O'Rourke, M.G. Hayes, and S.W. Carlyle.
American Journal of Human Genetics 64:817-831,1999 0002-9297/99/6403-0020 $2.00 Ancestral Asian Sources of New World Y-Chromosome Founder Haplotypes
Huoponen et al., 1997 MtDNA and Y chromosome-specific polymorphisms in the seminole tribe of florida European Journal of Human Genetics 5, 25-34.
Macaulay et al 1999 American journal of Human Genetics 64, 232-249
(Science 5th March 1999 page 1439).They are papers about New World Y-chromosome haplotypes in the Americas. The exact references are not given but they shouldn't be too hard to find. One is in the Feb and the other is in the March issue of The American Journal of Human Genetics.
Y Chromosomes Point to Native American Adam Diego Hurtado de Mendoza and Ricardo Braginski Science 1999; 283: 1439-1440
T. Schultes, Susanne Hummel, Bernd Herrmann: original investigation: Amplification of Y-chromosomal STRs from ancient skeletal material Hum Genet 104 (1999) 2, 164-166The Central Siberian Origin for Native American Y Chromosomes Fabrício R. Santos,1,2 Arpita Pandya,1 Chris Tyler-Smith,1 Sérgio D. J. Pena,2 Moses Schanfield,3 William R. Leonard,4 Ludmila Osipova,5 Michael H. Crawford,6 and R. John Mitchell7 1Department of Biochemistry, Oxford University, Oxford; 2Departamento de Bioquímica, Universidade Federal de Minas Gerais, Belo Horizonte, Minas Gerais, Brazil; 3Analytical Genetic Testing Center, Inc., Denver; 4Department of Anthropology, University of Florida, Miami; 5Institute of Cytology and Genetics, Siberian Branch of the Russian Academy of Sciences, Novosibirsk, Russia; 6Department of Anthropology, University of Kansas, Lawrence; and 7School of Genetics and Human Variation, La Trobe University, Bundoora, Australia Received July 7, 1998; accepted for publication December 14, 1998; electronically published February 2, 1999. Summary Y chromosomal DNA polymorphisms were used to investigate Pleistocene male migrations to the American continent. In a worldwide sample of 306 men, we obtained 32 haplotypes constructed with the variation found in 30 distinct polymorphic sites. The major Y haplotype present in most Native Americans was traced back to recent ancestors common with Siberians, namely, the Kets and Altaians from the Yenissey River Basin and Altai Mountains, respectively. Going further back, the next common ancestor gave rise also to Caucasoid Y chromosomes, probably from the central Eurasian region. This study, therefore, suggests a predominantly central Siberian origin for Native American paternal lineages for those who could have migrated to the Americas during the Upper Pleistocene.
Schurr et al., (1990) Amerindian mitochondrial DNAs have rare Asian mutations at high frequencies, suggesting they derived from four primary maternal lineages. American Journal of Human Genetics 46, 613-623.
Merriwether et al., (1995) Distribution of the four founding lineage haplotypes in Native Americans suggests a single wave of migration for the New World. American Journal of Physical Anthropology 98, 411-430.
Bonatto SL and Salzano FM (1997) Diversity and age of the four major mtDNA haplogroups, and their implications for the peopling of the new world. American Journal of Human Genetics 61, 1413-1423.
Stone AC and Stoneking M. (1998) mtDNA analysis of a prehistoric Oneota population: Implications for the peopling of the New World. American Journal of Human Genetics. 62, 1153-1170.
Asian specific mitochondrial DNA in American Indians was discovered by Schurr et al. His research is broadened in Merriwether's paper. This is the most interesting one. Table 2 is the most INFORMATIVE.
This collection has been obtained from protests, emails, media articles and Internet posts
Woodward's Wayward on DNA
Lamanite Jeans Fade Fast
Book of Mormon Stories that Mr. Murphy told to me
White and Delightsome Racist and Frightsome
Laman was right!
Golden Plates a Native American Berates
Hinckley - Walk a mile in my moccasins
Teepees not temples
And it came to pass the no Lamanite DNA was found throughout the land
Galileo had a teleschope, Murphy has DNA
Murphy's Law: Tell the Truth, Get Excommunicated!
Who's hiding the Lamanites?
Mormonism Insults Native Americans
Believe B of M? I've got a land bridge across the Bering Sea I'd like to sell you.
Murphy - Hinckley Galileo - The Pope
You can't excommunicate facts.
Murphy's Law; If a prophet can go wrong, he will.
Lamanite DNA Sorry 'bout that
Frenzied Apologetics Repulsive to Mainstream Scholars
Feeble Attempts to Reconcile Mythology and Science
Frantically Attempting to Reassess MtDNA Statistics
Frick'n Anti's Ruin My Slumber
Thomas Murphy Burned at the Stake Center
DNA = Demormonize Native Americans
DNA = Dogma Not Authentic
The lost 116 pages said that Lehi's middle east ancestors came originally from Siberia.
Free Agency = Freedom to Ignore Any Facts You Don't Like
When the Prophet Speaks, the Thinking Has Been Done (By Someone Else).
Moroni was really the tooth fairy
Reformed Egytian my ass.
People who don't exist don't leave DNA. Pretty simple.
The Bering Strait vs. The Boring Strait.
If Native Americans are Jews then why are they poor?
The only one cursed are the ones taught mormonism from birth
DNA - Don't Need Assholes
As a Native American AND a non-Mormon I find some of the above information to be troubling. First of all, not all Native Americans have Asian DNA indicators. Because of the significant amount of time that Native people have populated this land, those indicators have been passed somewhat from tribe to tribe, especially from tribes along the west coast. So many people from other lands came to this continent that narrowing down bloodlines is an inexact science. - 10/10/2013 - boofus
Of the 4 or 5 possible scenarios where the majority of American Indians could have Near Eastern paternal ancestors, my current favorite is this. Many Native Americans typed as Q1a3a are actually Q1a3b. The mutation that separates these two lineage groups is called M323. I have read a number of DNA studies focused on Americans of pre-Columbian origin and none of them have listed M323 as one of the mutations tested for.
1. The Q1a3b Y-chromosome haplogroup includes 15% of Yemenite Jews. (Shen 2004)
2. The Q1a3a Y-chromosome haplogroup includes 30% of American Indians and about 4% of Latinos in the US, (Hammer 2005)
3. The Q1a3b haplogroup has never been found in a non-Jewish population which means that, at present, it is an Israelite marker.
4. According to Yemenite Jewish folk history, a group of wealthy Israelites left Jerusalem for Yemen in 629 BC when they heard Jeremiah predict the destruction of the temple.
5. The Q1a3a marker in American Indians is typically identified by testing positive for 2 mutations (M242 and M346) and negative for 1 mutation (M3). However, if you performed the same tests on a Yemenite Jew who belonged to the Q1a3b haplogroup you would get the same results; positive for M242 and M346 and negative for M3. You would test for the M323 mutation in order to find the difference.
Until a reasonable search is made for the M323 mutation in populations of pre-Columbian American origin a direct link between the Middle East and pre-Columbian Americans via the Q1a3b haplogroup can not be dismissed. - 05/30/2011 - Doug Forbes aka dougtheavenger
all of your DNA scientific, bullshity, pissedoffness, whatever, will not ever prove a thing of the spirit world. (documentary watched on tv)science showed, that there is a object of some sort (the spirit) that leaves the body when it dies,(weight differences recorded before and after death precisely) however no tangible or physical proof, evidence, so forth can be substanciated in order to make a claim of fame etc. so there is another mystery, (the mysteries of god, see ARTICLES OF FAITH 9) we are mere man who are and always will be on this earth as pitiful mortal beings, spiritually weak in need of his righteousness.
BIBLE REF: for your benefit, anti BOM persons. James 4: 4 Ye aadulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is cenmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
Are you homosexual? one of the most used spirtual exits of the less active member or antimormon, i urge you to stop with the sideways approach, and head direct to the issue. the standards of the LDS are the highest of any church. I dare not querry if Joseph smith conversed with god and jesus christ, the angels and so forth, I just know this, it spiritually feels right. (holy ghost). I know the gold plates were in actual fact, cause mans greed sought after them, even to the death of many. My very nature is similar to that of the native indians, warrior instinct, but i choose to over power these urges for the love of god, and the want to love of mankind.
I am a native maori of ngapuhi, i believe we are of the house of isreal, who come through the native american indians, my grandfater looks like a native american in 1980s who is passed on. the moriori & maori were in (Te Ika a Maui) New Zealand hundreds of years before white man, and still but they dont brag about that. haha, while the white man believe in the earth being a flat mass.
(nga kupu enei ki a koutou nga tangata katoa i te ao kikokiko, he aha te mea nui o tenei ao, he tangata, he tangata, he tangata.)
these are my words to all you people of the physical world, what is the greatest thing of this world, it is people, it is people, it is people.
hope you dont mind i found this post interesting re: DNA
Name withheld says:
October 18, 2007
Dear Mr. David and others,
Again, you have dodged the issue. When you say, "I don't have time to list all the evidences of evolution," you are actually saying, "I really don't have ANY examples of evolution, so for a smoke screen, I'll just say that I don't have time to list all the examples of evolution." Please, I have plenty of time, and you have plenty of time. Just list me ONE example of evolution that you know for sure. If you don't, we'll both know that you are bluffing.
You took me to task on the probability of DNA evolving randomly. I have actually done the math. Have you? There are only 4 base nucleotides in DNA, a polypeptide of 3 BILLION base pairs, ALL of which must be written perfectly in order to function. Let me lead you through: 4X 4 X 4 É = 4! which is 4 to the 86,000 power =10 to the 150 power, which is the commonly accepted limit of probability (actually the limit of possibility). We have reached impossibility at 86,000 nucleotides, EXTREMELY before 3 billion!
Actually, Mycoplasma genitalium is the simplest free-living organism. It has only 1 chromosome with 470 genes, which contain 1,040 nucleotide base pairs. Using 3 nucleotides for each codon, the average size protein coded for by these genes contains about 347 amino acids. The probability of forming, by random assembly method, ONE such average size protein containing the amino acid residues in a required sequence is 1 in 10 to the 451 power! Again, well below 10 to the 150 power.
I suggest that not everything in our world has a naturalistic explanation. Some things are obviously made by a Superior Intelligece. For example, If we found a body on the sidewalk, we might forensically begin to look for a cause of death. We may suspect Anthrax, or Ebola, or draw blood for a lab work-up. But if we see a knife sticking in the back of the body, our time might be better used looking for a PERSON.
Our world is too complex to have evolved; we need to be looking for a source of knowledge and information that is extremely higher than all of the organization that we see in the body of scientific observations. David, I am compelled to believe that there is a God. What is your take on the facts?
Name and address withheld.
- 02/09/2010 - Leonard_Kaikohe
Science has many theories. A theory is a suggestion. Science has changed so much over the last hundred years and will continue to do so at an exponential rate. The truths of God have not changed nor will ever. - 11/28/2008 - Jason
You should watch the DVD called DNA Evidence for Book of Mormon Geography. This would clear up any questions you might have... - 03/20/2008 - Amy
What is this mess? This is funny and offensive at the same time... - 03/10/2008 - nick
I hope everyone knows that Zarahelma is a made up from the name, Jerusalem. It's meant to be that way for so many reasons. The first one that, if people found out that connection, then they would without a doubt believe that the Book of Mormon is true. - 11/08/2007 - Jay
The Mormons taking more than their share ridicule?? Simple! They effin deserve it. No other religion needs lame excuses to justify itself.
C'mon! nobody in their right mind can buy that "rock in the hat" crap or a kid with a limp running 3 miles with 200 pounds of gold while fending off an attacker. Other religions just go about their spooky stuff and most keep it to themselves. All you LDSers have to do, is keep it to yourselves and knock of the chicken shit discipline you use to keep the pseudo faithful. - 10/10/2007 - johnnyputt
As a Cherokee the simple fact that Mormons have always referred to us as "cursed" is ridiculous. This is still in the BOM so they must still believe it and teach it, now we have a man who believes in this fictional book running for President. If he should suceed we are all in trouble. Whats next? the taking of more of our land? the taking of our resources? DNA doesn't lie, the Jews use DNA to prove who can enter Israel and who can not! yet no one questions them! DNA proves we are NOT Jews yet the Mormon church doesn't admit it! it only goes to show that money can buy anything, even the truth. As long as you pay a full tith, and get your "Club entry Card" they will continu to prosper in wealth and BUY the truth. I am proud of who I am, where I came from and my that the fathers of my fathers were great men. - 09/17/2007 - TallTree
It don't matter to me ip they lamanites no gots have no hebrews Dna in they. My Profit sayd When God changed they skin to brown, he also ib got changed they dna. He ib got did this to prove religin over sience. I know that Gernomino and aw hib relative were pure hebrewn ansestery. When they ib changed back, ip gonna show the trut. I ibs got have hebresw dna without the ansestery and my blood wab literaley changed from white to hebrewn when I got im the church. I ib ob the hebrewn tribe ob efraim. Ip dont matter to me ip they godless languists try am say that nativ american lainguidge don't tracing to hebrews. What ip god jus changed they lainguidge patern ap they same time, like He ib got done ap dee babelin towern. He doos it similar ab dee nothern aseian languist jus to test usn. Ip dont mattern to me ip they dont never find they single artefatc from they hundreyds battlen im they americas. The book of mormon ib stil tru. god may jus be makin we hard a find arkalogecal evidents to tes our fait some more. simple ab that. They got sayn ap Jofsept Smit transated a brass plate am it got turn out to be a fony hoakes. Eben ip they pepol made up they plate, and faked the caractern omn it, Josneph Smithn can stil transate ip to dumfound they doubtersn. bring they evidence down. I ib gots need no they fancy evidence. I ib just lissen to the living profit, an they say what I ib suposed to think an say next on stuff. Aba mormon, I dont need no godless thougt and evidentse. God cay test us by tricking they facts around to see ip we ib still gonna hab dee fait in him or not. Hope dip help. Who need more sience, or they other fancyn evidentse whey we ib gots habba profit they told up aw what realy happend. - 08/03/2007 - wwwMortimerKnavelyCom
If you believe in God and in his Son, Jesus Christ, you know that they work miracles beyond comprehension. What is it to say the "native americans", not "indians", DNA were changed? - 07/30/2007 - Mark
Wow, you are a hateful bunch of idiots. And this DNA thing is extremely bogus considering that Anthropologists are finding that people in one area don't always have similar DNA. They find that it's quite common for a Kenyon to have more in common DNA-wise with an albino Dutchman than with his close neighbor. I know I'll probably have to repent for saying this, but you fuckers need to pull your heads out of your asses, and take a look at things without this deep bias, because its obviously fucking up your findings. - 06/24/2007 - RC
RE: Timeline of Science vs. Timeline of Mormonism
Both are wrong. - 06/09/2007 - Edgewater
why is it so hard to believe? seeing isn't always believing. I know that the Book of Mormon tells truth and nothing but the truth. If you read 1Nephi chap. 13. it talks about the visions Nephi about the revoloutionary war, columbus, and the pilgrims, which are things way before its time. - 04/04/2007 - Hamoa
What makes a man create such a hate for the Latter-Day-Saints and not for any other religion. Its because the devil does not care about the others, and goes after the Mormons because he knows Latter-Day-Saints and the Book of Morman to be True. Read and Pray yourself (James 1:5) As Many Have to know for youself what is true! - 04/05/2007 - anon
What would impress me is at least a little intellectual honesty in concession as to how inconclusive DNA markers are, especially in this case. It specifies right in the BOM that the DNA was in fact changed, quid pro quo the statement that the Lord in fact turned the Lamanites skin color dark. How this was in fact accomplished is not specified, at least in terms of today's context, but the idioms that were used in respect to the writing could be taken several different ways.
This context, coupled with the fact that the Nephites were destroyed, leads me to believe that DNA science has no way to account for the history of the Americas. Truthfully, I am surprised that even 1/2% of native American tribes were found with notable consistencies in DNA, considering that the Lord should have been merciful enough to the modern heathen to wipe it off the map entirely. But I guess the Lord's purpose is accomplished in hype and demagoguery. People are going to do what people are going to do. It just sucks for me right now that I have to be on the receiving end of their hatred. But still, my predecessors suffered much worse. And Jesus has demanded that I suffer for the faith.
Negative science is rarely reliable, or even pertinent in regards to many theories considered scientific. But it is used quite liberally for criticism of the BOM. It is easier to disprove conventional evolution through modern science; especially contemporary DNA, than it is to disprove the BOM. Truthfully, the long list of "I haven't seen that yet" is getting shorter, but people who are motivated by hate will never mention that. I would invite you to consider the idea that just because man hasn't found something yet doesn't mean it doesn't exist. A lover of truth will at least admit that. - 10/26/2005 - John
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